Islam And Homosexuality

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1260817617' post='2020444']
It is recorded in apocryphal Christian literature, but is still a common belief among Christians, particularly in the East where the tradition is reflected in religious art from the earliest times. The West generally paints a different picture of Joseph and Mary as being closer in age, but both are apocryphal.[/quote]
Really, I was Roman Catholic for 17 years and people were all over the place on how old Mary and Joseph were.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1260817617' post='2020444']
But really, one need not quibble about such things as current canon law permits girls to marry at 14, and in times past the canon law specified 12 years of age (and there are many examples; e.g., St. Elizabeth of Portugal married at 12 and became pregnant straight away). This is not betrothal by the way, but consummate marriage. Certainly this would offend the moral sensibility of many. Some countries do not allow marriage until after the age of twenty, I imagine that people of such a culture would cringe at the thought of a grown man marrying a 16, 15 or 14 year old girl. Incidentally, the marriage of girls as young as 14 is legally possible in the United States - in some states with court approval; 15 and 16 in many states with parental consent.
[/quote]
Key word is apocryphal. To my knowledge the ages of Mary and Joseph have never been stated in the divine liturgy, which is the only way that one could consider any specific age as authoritative.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1260818213' post='2020455']
Key word is apocryphal. To my knowledge the ages of Mary and Joseph have never been stated in the divine liturgy, which is the only way that one could consider any specific age as authoritative.
[/quote]
The historical accuracy of the apocryphal literature matters little, the fact of such traditions and "pious" stories is what matters in the point I was making. People in the early Church did not equate marriage between a grown man (or even elderly man) and a barely pubescent girl with 'dirty old man' pedophilia, or apparently anything of a taboo sort. These Christian traditions and literature are relevant to some extent because I am suggesting that to say or imply that Mohammed was a creepy pedophile for marrying A'isha is not particular fair and that such a marriage is not something all that unusual historically speaking, particularly for the elite of society.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1260818824' post='2020460']
The historical accuracy of the apocryphal literature matters little, the fact of such traditions and "pious" stories is what matters in the point I was making. People in the early Church did not equate marriage between a grown man (or even elderly man) and a barely pubescent girl with 'dirty old man' pedophilia, or apparently anything of a taboo sort. These Christian traditions and literature are relevant to some extent because I am suggesting that to say or imply that Mohammed was a creepy pedophile for marrying A'isha is not particular fair and that such a marriage is not something all that unusual historically speaking, particularly for the elite of society.
[/quote]
Some are pious and some are heretical, but the stories themselves do not agree, and so no firm conclusion can be made; while - on the other hand - in the case of Mohammad the Muslim source materials state A'isha was six or seven years old.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1260818213' post='2020455']
Really, I was Roman Catholic for 17 years and people were all over the place on how old Mary and Joseph were.
[/quote]
Apart from apocryphal traditions, 12 or 13 is generally considered by scholars to be the most likely age. The age of Joseph is even more conjectural but based on a survey of religious art the dominant theme in the East is an old man Joseph.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 02:27 PM' timestamp='1260818824' post='2020460']
The historical accuracy of the apocryphal literature matters little, the fact of such traditions and "pious" stories is what matters in the point I was making. People in the early Church did not equate marriage between a grown man (or even elderly man) and a barely pubescent girl with 'dirty old man' pedophilia, or apparently anything of a taboo sort. These Christian traditions and literature are relevant to some extent because I am suggesting that to say or imply that Mohammed was a creepy pedophile for marrying A'isha is not particular fair and that such a marriage is not something all that unusual historically speaking, particularly for the elite of society.
[/quote]

What was he, then?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:31 PM' timestamp='1260819068' post='2020461']
Some are pious and some are heretical, but the stories themselves do not agree, and so no firm conclusion can be made; while - on the other hand - in the case of Mohammad the Muslim source materials state A'isha was six or seven years old.
[/quote]
I think I see the trend here. Any Christian stuff that offends our sensibilities will be declared dubious and "no firm conclusion can be made;" while unfortunate things pertaining to Mohammed will be uncritically accepted as fact. I trust this isn't what your trying to say, but posts like this do lend themselves towards such an interpretation.
Once again, you're obfuscating the issues by pretending that the status of XYZ apocryphal literature has anything to do with the point being made.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1260819243' post='2020464']
What was he, then?
[/quote]
I do not know, but I'd be weary of declaring him a pedophile if I were you (which you've done most explicitly in other threads). What is a Catholic who legally (by Church standards) marries and consummates with a twelve year old girl? To me personally the thought of a grown man marrying (in the full sense of the word) even a fourteen year old girl is repugnant, and yet it is allowed by canon law.
You are the one casting stones so I believe you should have the answers to these questions, not I.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1260819761' post='2020469']
I do not know, but I'd be weary of declaring him a pedophile if I were you (which you've done most explicitly in other threads). What is a Catholic who legally (by Church standards) marries and consummates with a twelve year old girl? To me personally the thought of a grown man marrying (in the full sense of the word) even a fourteen year old girl is repugnant, and yet it is allowed by canon law.
You are the one casting stones so I believe you should have the answers to these questions, not I.
[/quote]

If you do not consider a man having sex with a child "pedophilia" I am curious to hear what you do call it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1260819512' post='2020466']
I think I see the trend here. Any Christian stuff that offends our sensibilities will be declared dubious and "no firm conclusion can be made;" while unfortunate things pertaining to Mohammed will be uncritically accepted as fact. I trust this isn't what your trying to say, but posts like this do lend themselves towards such an interpretation.
Once again, you're obfuscating the issues by pretending that the status of XYZ apocryphal literature has anything to do with the point being made.
[/quote]
I do not see, for example, the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas as "Christian stuff." That is unless heresy is orthodoxy.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1260819950' post='2020472']
If you do not consider a man having sex with a child "pedophilia" I am curious to hear what you do call it.
[/quote]
Wow, you've got a knack for ignoring/avoiding issues.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1260819235' post='2020463']
Apart from apocryphal traditions, 12 or 13 is generally considered by scholars to be the most likely age. The age of Joseph is even more conjectural but based on a survey of religious art the dominant theme in the East is an old man Joseph.
[/quote]
Mary may have been 15 years old or 30 years old. Guessing and calling it scholarship is always dangerous.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1260820285' post='2020477']
Wow, you've got a knack for ignoring/avoiding issues.
[/quote]

Excuse me? I asked you a simple question. OBVIOUSLY I think that a man having sex with a fourteen year old is disgusting.

A man who has sex with a child is a pedophile. Muhammad was a man, Aisha was a child. Since you do not consider their sexual relationship pedophilia, I am wondering what you WOULD call it.

Edit: I like you, L_D. I know my post has a snappy tone but I find it bizarre how you blame me for avoiding an issue when you yourself refuse to provide a simple answer.

Edited December 14, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Apotheoun]

L_D,

I accept the Orthodox faith of the Church, and therefore I do not believe that Arius' teaching is Christian, nor do I believe that the teaching of Nestorius or Dioscorus Christian. I also do not believe that the various gnostic texts are Christian, and as far as pious texts are concerned, they are just that [i]pious[/i], and no one is required to accept another person's piety as true or valid. If it is a part of your personal piety to believe that Mary was 12 years old, that is fine with me, even though I do not share your opinion. Perhaps this is just another one of those East / West differences that Rexi hates so much.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1260819761' post='2020469']
I do not know, but I'd be weary of declaring him a pedophile if I were you (which you've done most explicitly in other threads). What is a Catholic who legally (by Church standards) marries and consummates with a twelve year old girl? To me personally the thought of a grown man marrying (in the full sense of the word) even a fourteen year old girl is repugnant, and yet it is allowed by canon law.
You are the one casting stones so I believe you should have the answers to these questions, not I.
[/quote]

It is rare for girls to even start puberty at nine, and 'start' is a key word. Sex with prepubescent individuals is pedophilia. There are worlds of differences between a 12 year old girl, and a 9 year old girl. A nine year old still have the body and mind of a child. Whilst a 12 year old has more of a woman's body, than a child.

If Muhammad had sex with a nine year old, and the Koran states that he did, he very very likely committed an act of pedophilia, because the child would still have had a child's body, and mind.

Clearly she had the mind of a child from what the Koran records of day she was taken from her house to have sex with Muhammad. Who by the way already had many wives, it is also recorded in the Koran of Muhammad looking at a baby girl playing at his feet and his wanting to marry her.

Muhammad as is recorded in the Koran and other Islamic text was a sex addict.

Edited December 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 02:50 PM' timestamp='1260820256' post='2020475']
I do not see, for example, the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas as "Christian stuff." That is unless heresy is orthodoxy.
[/quote]
An excellent and obstinate display of meaningless diversion. I trust you actually know the differences between the Gnostic gospels and the Gospel of James so I won't waste time composing a response.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 12:58 PM' timestamp='1260820701' post='2020487']
An excellent and obstinate display of meaningless diversion. I trust you actually know the differences between the Gnostic gospels and the Gospel of James so I won't waste time composing a response.
[/quote]
I simply refuse to be a heretic. Sorry if you see that as a form of diversion.

As far as the protoevangelium is concerned, I answered you above. A pious text has no dogmatic value, and no one is required to believe what is contained in such a text.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 02:57 PM' timestamp='1260820636' post='2020486']
It is rare for girls to even start puberty at nine, and 'start' is a key word. Sex with prepubescent individuals is pedophilia. There are worlds of differences between a 12 year old girl, and a 9 year old girl. A nine year old still have the body and mind of a child. Whilst a 12 year old has more of a woman's body, than a child.

If Muhammad had sex with a nine year old, and the Koran states that he did, he very very likely committed an act of pedophilia, because the child would still have had a child's body, and mind.

Clearly she had the mind of a child from what the Koran records of day she was taken from her house to have sex with Muhammad. Who by the way already had many wives, it is also recorded in the Koran of Muhammad looking at a baby girl playing at his feet and his wanting to marry her.

Muhammad as is recorded in the Koran and other Islamic text was a sex addict.
[/quote]
Thanks Knight. I must say however, I find it interesting that you were so quick to defend the Babylonian Talmud and yet you spew Mohammed slander so freely and uncritically.

You do not know that Mohammed actually had sex with A'isha when she was nine, scholars do not even agree with this. Where do you get your information from? And I do find it funny that you are seemingly defending sex between a grown man and a twelve year old. You do not see the hypocrisy or the extreme bias?

I may have to opt out of this discussion as I find it to be little more than slander and mudslinging. I am sure that Muslims have decent apologetics against these attacks, hopefully they will post.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
Where do you get your information from?
[/quote]

The texts have already been quoted in this thread.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1260821471' post='2020500']
The texts have already been quoted in this thread.
[/quote]
Scholars dispute the meaning of those texts. What makes you or Knight so qualified to pass judgement? And again, you don't find it odd that such texts are interpreted in the worst light with such obstinacy, but when I referenced the Talmud on child marriage it is instantly written off with a large pasting of apologetics.

Also, I have the impression that outside of the West most Muslims have little problem with the idea that Mohammed consummated with A'isha when she was nine. I also have the impression that it is only in fairly recent history that Western critics of Mohammed have seen the marriage to A'isha as a moral fault. Why is this argument not present in historical anti-Muslim polemics? Not to derail the debate or anything, I'm genuinely curious about this as I believe the answers to be revealing.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1260821698' post='2020507']
Scholars dispute the meaning of those texts. What makes you or Knight so qualified to pass judgement? And again, you don't find it odd that such texts are interpreted in the worst light with such obstinacy,[/quote]

I read it at face value. It blatantly said that Aisha was six.

[quote] but when I referenced the Talmud on child marriage it is instantly written off with a large pasting of apologetics.
[/quote]

Did I NOT say that was disgusting?