Islam And Homosexuality

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
Thanks Knight. I must say however, I find it interesting that you were so quick to defend the Babylonian Talmud and yet you spew Mohammed slander so freely and uncritically. [/quote]
I agree with L_D. I see no reason for a Christian to defend the Talmud, since it is not accepted as authoritative in Christianity. Any defense of it should be undertaken by the Jews, because it has value in their religion.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='15 December 2009 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
I may have to opt out of this discussion as I find it to be little more than slander and mudslinging. I am sure that Muslims have decent apologetics against these attacks, hopefully they will post.
[/quote]

Stay with it man, you're doin' fine.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
Thanks Knight. I must say however, I find it interesting that you were so quick to defend the Babylonian Talmud and yet you spew Mohammed slander so freely and uncritically. [/quote]

All I posted was a article that you didn't even bother to read.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']
You do not know that Mohammed actually had sex with A'isha when she was nine, scholars do not even agree with this. Where do you get your information from? And I do find it funny that you are seemingly defending sex between a grown man and a twelve year old. You do not see the hypocrisy or the extreme bias?[/quote]

I see that your emotions are ruling you. That you are making this debate very personal. I only point out that a 9 year old is still in many ways a child, where as a 12 year old has more of a body of an adult, and thus can more safely bare children, and the sex act itself, than the child body of a 9 year old.

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:09 PM' timestamp='1260821375' post='2020497']I may have to opt out of this discussion as I find it to be little more than slander and mudslinging. I am sure that Muslims have decent apologetics against these attacks, hopefully they will post.
[/quote]

Yes, state this whilst you look in the mirror.


My sources...

She had the mind of a child.

...my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234



A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Sahih Muslim 8:3311


Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151


'The Prophet' had sex with a 9 year old child.

Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Abu Dawud 41:4915


Muhammad wanted to marry a toddler.

(Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...

Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, "If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her."
Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636

Edited December 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1260822940' post='2020518']
All I posted was a article that you didn't even bother to read.



I see that your emotions are ruling you. That you are making this debate very personal. I only point out that a 9 year old is still in many ways a child, where as a 12 year old has more of a body of an adult, and thus can more safely bare children, and the sex act itself, than the child body of a 9 year old.



Yes, state this whilst you look in the mirror.


My sources...

She had the mind of a child.

...my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:234



A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.
Sahih Muslim 8:3311


'The Prophet' had sex with a 9 year old child.

Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:88

Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
Abu Dawud 41:4915


Muhammad wanted to marry a toddler.

(Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab...

Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, "If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her."
Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636
[/quote]

This is the PC police. Cease and desist immediately.

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 01:50 PM' timestamp='1260816613' post='2020432']
Muhammad is more than their prophet, he is the founder of Islam.
[/quote]


No he's not.

Muhammad [i]may[/i] have left us what is in the Qur'an. We don't know for sure how clear the line from the present text back to him is. Most of what we consider to be "Islam" was crafted over the first few centuries after Muhammad's death. The Hadith were collected by Bukari about a century after Muhammad died. Ditto with the biographies.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='14 December 2009 - 01:42 PM' timestamp='1260823328' post='2020524']
No he's not.

Muhammad [i]may[/i] have left us what is in the Qur'an. We don't know for sure how clear the line from the present text back to him is. Most of what we consider to be "Islam" was crafted over the first few centuries after Muhammad's death. The Hadith were collected by Bukari about a century after Muhammad died. Ditto with the biographies.
[/quote]
I thought for a moment you were Hussain, and was rather shocked by the post.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1260822940' post='2020518']
All I posted was a article that you didn't even bother to read.[/quote]
Sadly, I'm kind of busy (too busy for this thread at all perhaps) and that topic isn't absolutely relevant to the major issue anyway. Maybe later.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1260822940' post='2020518']I see that your emotions are ruling you. That you are making this debate very personal. I only point out that a 9 year old is still in many ways a child, where as a 12 year old has more of a body of an adult, and thus can more safely bare children, and the sex act itself, than the child body of a 9 year old. [/quote]
I assure you I have purged all emotion Knight. Perhaps you are projecting your own subjective states onto my perfectly emotionless posts. *raises eyebrow*


[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1260822940' post='2020518']
Yes, state this whilst you look in the mirror.
[/quote]
Okay? Nothing happened.


More later if I can find time...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1260823734' post='2020528']
*raises eyebrow*[/quote]
You're using the wrong avatar.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 December 2009 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1260823550' post='2020527']
I thought for a moment you were Hussain, and was rather shocked by the post.


[/quote]


lol, yeah I've gotten confused by the names a few times myself.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1260823734' post='2020528']
I assure you I have purged all emotion Knight. Perhaps you are projecting your own subjective states onto my perfectly emotionless posts. *raises eyebrow*[/quote]

Spock would not agree.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1260823293' post='2020522']
This is the PC police. Cease and desist immediately.
[/quote]
haha, good one.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 December 2009 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1260824040' post='2020537']
Spock would not agree.
[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 December 2009 - 07:51 AM' timestamp='1260823885' post='2020533']
You're using the wrong avatar.
[/quote]
And he's being unemotional Dam' I just discovered knight beat me to it.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[HisChildForever]

Someone give me a prod when the argument commences.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 December 2009 - 08:15 AM' timestamp='1260825304' post='2020553']
Someone give me a prod when the argument commences.
[/quote]

Noooo

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='14 December 2009 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1260825117' post='2020549']
And he's being unemotional Dam' I just discovered knight beat me to it.
[/quote]
Actually I find it quite amusing that someone would suppose that I have any kind of emotional investment in defending Islam. The only notable emotion that I have in relation to this discussion is embarrassment. It seems likely that some will label me "PC" and write me off, but I have found the general response to our Muslim members by the 'louder' contingent on phatmass to be saddening and even frustrating.

If I were Muslim many of the probable details of Muhammad's life would be disturbing to me and my faith, but this does not mean that it is a good witness for Catholics to declare Muhammad a "pedophile" ad nauseaum. The possibilities for meaningful debate are so much broader, but each thread that I've seen ends up being dragged down by such rubbish.

And I would feel the same way were a group of Mormons to get the same kind of reception, or Jews; it isn't about Islam.

The predicable response will likely be something quite childish such as pointing out the faults of the Muslim posters and asserting that they deserve the attacks, or that there is an unjust double-standard, that they're simply "saying the truth" as opposed to being "PC."

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='14 December 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1260825800' post='2020564']
Actually I find it quite amusing that someone would suppose that I have any kind of emotional investment in defending Islam. The only notable emotion that I have in relation to this discussion is embarrassment. It seems likely that some will label me "PC" and write me off, but I have found the general response to our Muslim members by the 'louder' contingent on phatmass to be saddening and even frustrating.

If I were Muslim many of the probable details of Muhammad's life would be disturbing to me and my faith, but this does not mean that it is a good witness for Catholics to declare Muhammad a "pedophile" ad nauseaum. The possibilities for meaningful debate are so much broader, but each thread that I've seen ends up being dragged down by such rubbish.

And I would feel the same way were a group of Mormons to get the same kind of reception, or Jews; it isn't about Islam.

The predicable response will likely be something quite childish such as pointing out the faults of the Muslim posters and asserting that they deserve the attacks, or that there is an unjust double-standard, that they're simply "saying the truth" as opposed to being "PC."
[/quote]

Have you found time that you didn't have now? I state you were being emotional because of the emotional language you directed to HCF and myself ie "spew" and such. As well as laughing at our posts ie "haha", laughter is a emotion.

Edited December 14, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='14 December 2009 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1260825304' post='2020553']
Someone give me a prod when the argument commences.
[/quote]
The actual topic died many pages ago, but it wasn't particularly good in the first place.

Instead of the form, "here is what Islam teaches, hahaha, isn't that crazy." I would suggest (now that we have Muslim members), "what does Islam teach about XYZ?" to which Muslims can respond. This is not PC, it is common courtesy and what I would hope for if I were representing the Catholic Faith on a non-Catholic website.

[Hussain]

I would like to commend Laudate_Dominum for contextualizing the argument.

That said, I believe my purpose here is no longer fulfilling.

Salam!