Holding Hands During Our Father At Mass

[tinytherese]

Some people think I'm being unfriendly or weird for not doing it like everyone else.

[Chamomile]

Do they actually tell you this? If they do, you can find documents on liturgical norms that specifically say we don't do this during the Mass - and that it's discouraged and the reasons behind that.

If someone says this, you can also point out that it's like saying, Why don't you high-five me during the sign of peace? Or why don't you start dancing after the Consecration? because other people do it and thinking you're strange for not doing that. There are reasons we do certain things and don't do something else at Mass.

I was visiting someone out of town, and at the closest Mass I could go to, the whole congregation got out of their seats and made a circle around the church while holding hands and praying the Our Father! I felt I had to do the same or else I would've been the focal point of everyone surrounding me. Hopefully, I won't have to go back to that church, and if that were my local church, I would find a different one.

If you are just thinking they're thinking this (or they really give you nasty looks), just close your eyes, fold your hands, and focus on the prayer - focus on Our Father...

[vee]

What chamomile said. You may also consider kindly and gently mentioning this to your priest. You may also consider attending Mass at a different time because from my own experience there would be Masses at the same parish that would have hand holding and others that did not. I know how you feel though and I would just clasp my hands, close my eyes and focus on Jesus even though it is hard.

[Livin_the_MASS]

My parish has the same problem although not everyone does it but there are still some that do.

Can anyone tell me how this came about, who started these habits and why?

[Micah]

Not essentially called for in the rubrics. If someone tried to hold my hand I'd probably poke em in the eye. I'm pretty sure DS has threatened someone too.

[Sarah147]

It's totally NOT okay. I think it probably began when this whole "us/we" and "community" focus started up. It's supposed to be WORSHIP of GOD, not ourselves. Drives me nuts. It goes on at many parishes I've been to.

And not just this, but also shaking hands/kissing/hugging at the sign of peace. We are supposed to gently nod, smile, hold up your hand slightly. It drives me nuts when people are demanding a shake. Community. community, community.

I was thrilled when at one parish, the Priest said that no one was to touch at the sign of peace due to sickness going around. EVERYONE OBEYED! It was like being in a convent/monastery. Unfortunetly, I HAVE seen hugging and shaking in convents.

I'm in an annoyed mood today, sorry if that's coming off. Using a public computer around people swearing and acting mental, and having limited time is a big annoyance to me.

[Cam42]

What do the rubrics say? The rubrics apply to the faithful as well as the celebrant.....

The [url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml"]GIRM[/url] and the [url="http://www.nccbuscc.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf"]Roman Missal[/url]say:

[quote]124. [color="#FF0000"]After the chalice and paten have been set down, the Priest, with hands joined, says:[/color]At the Savior’s command
and formed by divine teaching,
we dare to say:
[color="#FF0000"]He extends his hands and, together with the people, continues:[/color]Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come,
thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.[/quote]

It is extremely clear....the priest extends his hands. The faithful do not. There is no mention of the posture of the faithful, therefore the faithful should remain in the proper position with their hands folded.

[color="#FF0000"]DO THE RED[/color] SAY THE BLACK

If that is not enough proof for you, here is what [url="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html"]Vatican Council II[/url] says about introducing and/or changing a part of the Mass:

[quote]22.3. Therefore no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority.[/quote]

Finally, if that is even not enough for you, here is what [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur10.htm"]Fr. McNamara[/url] says:

[quote]The process for introducing any new rite or gesture into the liturgy in a stable or even binding manner is already contemplated in liturgical law. This process entails a two-thirds majority vote in the bishops' conference and the go-ahead from the Holy See before any change may take effect.

Thus, if neither the bishops' conference nor the Holy See has seen fit to prescribe any posture for the recitation of the Our Father, it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law and expect the faithful to follow their decrees.

While there are no directions as to the posture of the faithful, the rubrics clearly direct the priest and any concelebrants to pray the Our Father with hands extended — so they at least should not hold hands. [/quote]

I hope this helps.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Micah' timestamp='1295113073' post='2200369']
Not essentially called for in the rubrics. If someone tried to hold my hand I'd probably poke em in the eye. I'm pretty sure DS has threatened someone too.
[/quote]

I think for the sake of charity, I do hold the hand of the person if he extends it...and I see it...

After the Mass, I kindly tell them, that it is not part of the Mass, and they shouldn't believe it's a "requirement."

I usually close my eyes, to deeply meditate on the words of the Our Father (which I find it is difficult to pray it sometimes, as I am in much need of conversion...) This blocks out the others around me, and people aren't usually persistant when I don't respond to their hands held out for me, which I don't see, because my eyes are closed...


The same thing for the Agnus Dei, when that is being prayed, it's kinda annoying that people are still busy shaking hands, I close my eyes there too...it works everytime... hahaha

[Cam42]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1295113840' post='2200374']
I usually close my eyes, to deeply meditate on the words of the Our Father (which I find it is difficult to pray it sometimes, as I am in much need of conversion...) This blocks out the others around me, and people aren't usually persistant when I don't respond to their hands held out for me, which I don't see, because my eyes are closed...
[/quote]

That is what I do during the Pax. I don't want to shake another person's hand, that is not Catholic. I can do that before and/or after Mass. The Kiss of Peace is not a gladhanding moment or and expression of emotion....it is symbolic of the peace that Christ brings to Earth through the sacrifice of the Mass.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295114321' post='2200377']
That is what I do during the Pax. I don't want to shake another person's hand, that is not Catholic. I can do that before and/or after Mass. The Kiss of Peace is not a gladhanding moment or and expression of emotion....it is symbolic of the peace that Christ brings to Earth through the sacrifice of the Mass.
[/quote]

In the convent, we never even had the "Sign Of Peace" at Mass. It was absent. When I attend Mass with my Dom Sisters, I notice that they just kindly bow and smile at people, during this time, and their hands never leave their positions under their scapulars. Makes me wish I could wear a full-length scapular to Mass...hahaha

[vee]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295114321' post='2200377']
That is what I do during the Pax. I don't want to shake another person's hand, that is not Catholic. I can do that before and/or after Mass. The Kiss of Peace is not a gladhanding moment or and expression of emotion....it is symbolic of the peace that Christ brings to Earth through the sacrifice of the Mass.
[/quote]
From the GIRM
"As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples. It is, however, appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner."

At the same time, in accord with the decisions of the Conference of Bishops, all offer one another a sign that expresses peace, communion, and charity.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur137.htm

[tinytherese]

Every parish I've ever known has held hands during the Our Father. Rarely have I been somewhere where that wasn't done. When the children are sent out for the Children's Liturgy of the Word, our priest calls us all to extend our hand in blessing of them, as well as calls us to bless people at other times. Funny, I've never heard that we weren't supposed to shake during the sign of peace.

I know that people sometimes argue that since nothing in the rubrics say that we are supposed to hold hands at that point, then who is to say that we can't-that it's an optional sign of devotion. I know that that was basically what was said in Mass Confusion by James Akin.

[vee]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1295114568' post='2200378']
In the convent, we never even had the "Sign Of Peace" at Mass. It was absent. When I attend Mass with my Dom Sisters, I notice that they just kindly bow and smile at people, during this time, and their hands never leave their positions under their scapulars. Makes me wish I could wear a full-length scapular to Mass...hahaha
[/quote]

Yes I enjoyed that aspect of Mass at the convent too although I wasnt expecting that at first and was a bit surprised to find it omitted. I hear that there may be revisions coming to the Mass one of which might be moving or omitting the sign of peace altogether. Until that time or until I may enter a convent, whichever is God's will and whichever comes sooner, I will continue to make the sign of peace as is set out.

[Cam42]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1295115375' post='2200388']
From the GIRM
"As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples. It is, however, appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner."

At the same time, in accord with the decisions of the Conference of Bishops, all offer one another a sign that expresses peace, communion, and charity.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/liturgy/zlitur137.htm
[/quote]


And I do that by kneeling down and praying for them. That is appropriate.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Dominus Pax,
I prefer greeting a sister in christ with a peace be with you and a kiss on the cheek, and a brother in christ with a peace be with you and a hug(sometimes if i haven't seen a brother in a while and get excited i will kiss him on the forehead). If the person beside me at mass want's to hold hands during the our father(as a sign of trust and fidelity towards one another and God) than sure, for me it is not to be confused with the biblical laying of hands where saint paul warns us not to allow another to lay hands on them willy nilly so to speak, i assume this is because not everyone has the gift of laying of hands. Hope that helps.
Yours Truely
Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

God bless

P.S. if somone can give me chatechismal or biblical proof(chapter/verse) that holding hands at anytime(especially in this instance during the our father) is in anyway contrary to the faith please illuminate me i need to know.
P.S.S. of course i also have nothing against not holding hands or not cheek kissing, i truely require no exacta on these matters it is a personal choice,unless there is some doctrinal exacta that exists biblicaly or traditionaly.And i do understand some don't like to touch much even as a greeting for whatever reason,hey some people have muscular and skeletal disorders and it hurts to touch, amongst a possible 1000 other reasons.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

[Lilllabettt]

It is a weird American habit to want a "rule" for everything. The feeling goes that if you don't have "official" permission to kneel and receive communion, or kneel after receiving communion, or hold hands during the Our Father or fold them or anything like that ... then its "illegal" and you can't do it.

Trust me, Romans do not think that way. The Church requires us to be mature enough not to need to be told every last thing.

If you want to hold hands during the Our Father, there is no rule against it. There is some good theology about why its not a good idea, but its not "against the law" and its up to you, unless your priest or bishop asks you to do otherwise.

If you, like me, are not comfortable holding hands, then do something else with them.

I remember when they came out with the instructions that you need to stand after receiving Communion since its a "procession," and thats the way they do it in Rome. In America, where it is more the custom to kneel after Communion, there was a tizzy, and Cardinal George sent away for specific instructions whether a person could still kneel. And the answer came back "of course you can still kneel." Them in Rome were utterly flabbergasted that anyone would have to ask that question; it had never occurred to them to include a line in the instructions that "this is not intended to exclude other appropriate positions;" they assumed people would just understand that. (and my guess is everybody except the Americans did understand that)

I have an idea. Let's send a question to Rome: "What can/can't I do with my hands?" That should give them a few good laughs.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1295117868' post='2200404']
It is a weird American habit to want a "rule" for everything. The feeling goes that if you don't have "official" permission to kneel and receive communion, or kneel after receiving communion, or hold hands during the Our Father or fold them or anything like that ... then its "illegal" and you can't do it.

Trust me, Romans do not think that way. The Church requires us to be mature enough not to need to be told every last thing.

If you want to hold hands during the Our Father, there is no rule against it. There is some good theology about why its not a good idea, but its not "against the law" and its up to you, unless your priest or bishop asks you to do otherwise.

If you, like me, are not comfortable holding hands, then do something else with them.

I remember when they came out with the instructions that you need to stand after receiving Communion since its a "procession," and thats the way they do it in Rome. In America, where it is more the custom to kneel after Communion, there was a tizzy, and Cardinal George sent away for specific instructions whether a person could still kneel. And the answer came back "of course you can still kneel." Them in Rome were utterly flabbergasted that anyone would have to ask that question; it had never occurred to them to include a line in the instructions that "this is not intended to exclude other appropriate positions;" they assumed people would just understand that. (and my guess is everybody except the Americans did understand that)

I have an idea. Let's send a question to Rome: "What can/can't I do with my hands?" That should give them a few good laughs.
[/quote]


Alleluia thanks be to god, wise answer.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1295117868' post='2200404'] The Church requires us to be mature enough not to need to be told every last thing. [/quote]
no. way.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1295117868' post='2200404']
It is a weird American habit to want a "rule" for everything. The feeling goes that if you don't have "official" permission to kneel and receive communion, or kneel after receiving communion, or hold hands during the Our Father or fold them or anything like that ... then its "illegal" and you can't do it.

Trust me, Romans do not think that way. The Church requires us to be mature enough not to need to be told every last thing.

If you want to hold hands during the Our Father, there is no rule against it. There is some good theology about why its not a good idea, but its not "against the law" and its up to you, unless your priest or bishop asks you to do otherwise.

If you, like me, are not comfortable holding hands, then do something else with them.

I remember when they came out with the instructions that you need to stand after receiving Communion since its a "procession," and thats the way they do it in Rome. In America, where it is more the custom to kneel after Communion, there was a tizzy, and Cardinal George sent away for specific instructions whether a person could still kneel. And the answer came back "of course you can still kneel." Them in Rome were utterly flabbergasted that anyone would have to ask that question; it had never occurred to them to include a line in the instructions that "this is not intended to exclude other appropriate positions;" they assumed people would just understand that. (and my guess is everybody except the Americans did understand that)

I have an idea. Let's send a question to Rome: "What can/can't I do with my hands?" That should give them a few good laughs.
[/quote]

The whole rules thing, yeah, that's not American. We have rubrics (rules) that are handed to us by Rome. I would argue that it is more of an American thing to NOT follow the rules. Although parts of Europe are pretty bad too.

As for actually holding hands during the Our Father, there is a proscription about adding things which I quoted above. Not being legalistic, being factual. If you don't like it, too bad. We are a ritualistic Church. Everything we do has meaning and those meanings are guided by rules. Rules are not there to hinder us, but to help us to be more in union with our worship of the Lord.

As for the sending things to Rome, I can guarantee you that is how Rome wants it. They've said it over and over and over. That is not a bad thing either. You'd be surprised and what does go over. I have a priest friend who works in the Vatican....most of it is poppy-pickle (his words, not mine).

[Lil Red]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM[/media]

are we soldiers? lol.