Holding Hands During Our Father At Mass

[Cam42]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1295117046' post='2200398']
Dominus Pax,
I prefer greeting a sister in christ with a peace be with you and a kiss on the cheek, and a brother in christ with a peace be with you and a hug(sometimes if i haven't seen a brother in a while and get excited i will kiss him on the forehead). If the person beside me at mass want's to hold hands during the our father(as a sign of trust and fidelity towards one another and God) than sure, for me it is not to be confused with the biblical laying of hands where saint paul warns us not to allow another to lay hands on them willy nilly so to speak, i assume this is because not everyone has the gift of laying of hands. Hope that helps.
Yours Truely
Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye

God bless

P.S. if somone can give me chatechismal or biblical proof(chapter/verse) that holding hands at anytime(especially in this instance during the our father) is in anyway contrary to the faith please illuminate me i need to know.
P.S.S. of course i also have nothing against not holding hands or not cheek kissing, i truely require no exacta on these matters it is a personal choice,unless there is some doctrinal exacta that exists biblicaly or traditionaly.And i do understand some don't like to touch much even as a greeting for whatever reason,hey some people have muscular and skeletal disorders and it hurts to touch, amongst a possible 1000 other reasons.
[/quote]

There is nothing in scripture about this particular issue, so there is no biblical proof, but that is one of the glories of the Church. We have Sacred Tradition. Traditionally, this is not how we have exchanged the Kiss of Peace. Through time, tradition had it as an act of the ministers only and even then only during the Solemn Mass. The Kiss of Peace is first a metaphysical symbol of the sacrifice of the Mass, then only a literal exchange. It wasn't until the 1960s that the Kiss was extended to the whole of the congregation.

That being said, it is just another way of making the Mass more active (participatio activa) as opposed to actual (participatio actuosa). The latter is the internalizing of the Mass and the much more important aspect. Although the powers that be who reformed the Mass switched the impotice on which we assist at Holy Mass (that is a totally different thread).

So, suffice to say, the Kiss is something that is not necessary from an external POV and to this day remains only optional. However 99.9% of parishes do it.

N.B. Not to be a complete stick in the mud, but your Latin is wrong. It is not Dominus Pax, but rather Pax Domini. You're speaking to multiple persons. The way you did it, you're confusing tense and number. Dominus is singular, Pax is plural. Sorry, that is like fingers down a chalk board for me...

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1295120015' post='2200422']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM[/media]

are we soldiers? lol.
[/quote]


Gracious thanks Brother.
God Bless

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295119651' post='2200419']
As for actually holding hands during the Our Father, there is a proscription about adding things which I quoted above. Not being legalistic, being factual. If you don't like it, too bad. We are a ritualistic Church. Everything we do has meaning and those meanings are guided by rules. Rules are not there to hinder us, but to help us to be more in union with our worship of the Lord.
[/quote]

i agree with the comment...(except for the sentence, "If you don't like it, too bad.")


Every single thing we do during the Mass, every movement, gesture is lined out in the GIRM, because every single thing we do, say, has a specific meaning behind it. It is NOT correct to add things to the Mass, as this breaks with the continuity of unitive worship for Catholics. PLUS a lot of the added gestures really are meaningless....

I especially get bothered when the laity start reflecting the movements of the Priest on the altar...as in lifting up their arms at the prayer after the Our Father (and if your hand is still attached to their hand, they lift up your arm as well...) Once, a 6 footer stood by me in Mass, when he lifted my arm up, my feet nearly came off the ground!!!!

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295120188' post='2200423']do it.

N.B. Not to be a complete stick in the mud, but your Latin is wrong. It is not Dominus Pax, but rather Pax Domini. You're speaking to multiple persons. The way you did it, you're confusing tense and number. Dominus is singular, Pax is plural. Sorry, that is like fingers down a chalk board for me...
[/quote]

Yes i typed it wrong, was meant to be dominus vobiscum(may the lord be with your spirit).

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

I thought I was the only one who didn't like to shake hands with strangers during the kiss of peace or hold hands during the Our Father.

Shaking hands in business is common, but it doesn't feel uncomfortable to me. As far as holding hands, I see that as something personal, even intimate, that I don't do with strangers--or even necessarily with friends. For me, I think it's because I see worship as something very personal. I have no problem with bowing to my neighbors or waving, but not shaking or holding hands, except when I would attend services with my ex-husband. If I am going to hold hands with someone, I want it to be someone of my choosing. The worst time was when a congregation held hands, and the man next to me had a very deformed hand--virtually no hand at all. I didn't know the right way to hold his hand. Finally, he took my hand, so I would know how to hold his, but I felt like a jerk.

If so many people dislike this, what does the priest say? Does he think people like it? Or that they SHOULD like it? Or that they are required to do it? I assume SOMEONE must have said something to him?

I try to sit far away enough from other people that it's okay to just wave during the peace. But, it doesn't seem to work when the congregation holds hands--I'm expected to move over.

Just for the record, I also hate group hugs. I hug individuals, but it is individuals of my choosing and when the situation is comfortable. I'm affectionate, but I don't like forced affection.

I know a congregation is supposed to be "in fellowship" but in a large congregation, it feels to me the same as if an airplane captain suddenly required everyone on the airplane to greet each other, and to hold hands across the aisle.

I won't even mention germs. It might be a good argument for taking communion by mouth, so you don't have to touch the host with the hand that just held a stranger's hand, and maybe he or she has a cold, and doesn't know it yet. After shaking or holding hands wth a stranger, depending on the circumstances, I have been known to surreptitiously reach into my very large purse where I keep my anti-bacterial/anti-viral/anti-almost everything super-duper, hospital-grade hand wash. (In my case, I'm not over-reacting because I have immune system problems, but I shouldn't need that excuse.)

I've been tempted to just say to the people on either side of me that I think I'm coming down with a cold and beg off touching them. The only problem is that you couldn't use that excuse every week--or maybe you could.

Edited January 15, 2011 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[Lil Red]

we, as a family, have cut down how many people we shake hands with (as a starting point). we don't go out of our way to shake everyone's hand. we also do not hold hands (not even each others') during the Our Father.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' timestamp='1295120966' post='2200429']
Yes i typed it wrong, was meant to be dominus vobiscum(may the lord be with your spirit).
[/quote]

In that instance, you would have been more correct to say, Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum. Rather than dominus vobiscum. You weren't calling for one to enter into prayer. The latter is a specific call to prayer. The Pax Domini is more appropriate....

I'm a bit of a Latinist, 10 years of the stuff will do that to ya.....sorry....

[Cam42]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' timestamp='1295122051' post='2200442']
I thought I was the only one who didn't like to shake hands with strangers during the kiss of peace or hold hands during the Our Father.

Shaking hands in business is common, but it doesn't feel uncomfortable to me. As far as holding hands, I see that as something personal, even intimate, that I don't do with strangers--or even necessarily with friends. For me, I think it's because I see worship as something very personal. I have no problem with bowing to my neighbors or waving, but not shaking or holding hands, except when I would attend services with my ex-husband. If I am going to hold hands with someone, I want it to be someone of my choosing. The worst time was when a congregation held hands, and the man next to me had a very deformed hand--virtually no hand at all. I didn't know the right way to hold his hand. Finally, he took my hand, so I would know how to hold his, but I felt like a jerk.

If so many people dislike this, what does the priest say? Does he think people like it? Or that they SHOULD like it? Or that they are required to do it? I assume SOMEONE must have said something to him?

I try to sit far away enough from other people that it's okay to just wave during the peace. But, it doesn't seem to work when the congregation holds hands--I'm expected to move over.

Just for the record, I also hate group hugs. I hug individuals, but it is individuals of my choosing and when the situation is comfortable. I'm affectionate, but I don't like forced affection.

I know a congregation is supposed to be "in fellowship" but in a large congregation, it feels to me the same as if an airplane captain suddenly required everyone on the airplane to greet each other, and to hold hands across the aisle.

I won't even mention germs. It might be a good argument for taking communion by mouth, so you don't have to touch the host with the hand that just held a stranger's hand, and maybe he or she has a cold, and doesn't know it yet. After shaking or holding hands wth a stranger, depending on the circumstances, I have been known to surreptitiously reach into my very large purse where I keep my anti-bacterial/anti-viral/anti-almost everything super-duper, hospital-grade hand wash. (In my case, I'm not over-reacting because I have immune system problems, but I shouldn't need that excuse.)

I've been tempted to just say to the people on either side of me that I think I'm coming down with a cold and beg off touching them. The only problem is that you couldn't use that excuse every week--or maybe you could.
[/quote]


How many abuses are you going to bring up in one post.....WOW!!!! LOL!!!

See, that is why I kneel and reflect on the Our Father and the actual peace I am praying for, then those around me choose not to interrupt me as I am praying for them. I suppose that if they stuck their hand in my face I would shake it, but in the 15 years I've been offering the peace that way, I've yet to run into anyone who has done that.....I'm just sayin'....

Also, as an aside, here's a dubium for you....if we are not to self communicate (which we are not), then how can we justify taking Holy Communion in our hands and placing it on our tongues? Is that not self-communicating? Same applies to the Precious Blood. If we take the chalice and drink, are we not self-communicating? I think that maybe we are and that we are being told that it is ok to do something that is forbidden by liturgical law.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1295106582' post='2200341']
Some people think I'm being unfriendly or weird for not doing it like everyone else.
[/quote]
I quit our church choir because I got tired of being made fun of for not wanting my hands grabbed every week.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1295123778' post='2200456']
I quit our church choir because I got tired of being made fun of for not wanting my hands grabbed every week.
[/quote]
it amazes me how childish some adults can be.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1295123934' post='2200457']
it amazes me how childish some adults can be.
[/quote]
Well some of the guys thought it entertaining to embarrass me week after week, so I just gave up. I still sing all the funerals.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1295124492' post='2200460']
Well some of the guys thought it entertaining to embarrass me week after week, so I just gave up. I still sing all the funerals.
[/quote]
idiots.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295122710' post='2200448']
How many abuses are you going to bring up in one post.....WOW!!!! LOL!!!

[/quote]

Well, if someone needs another excuse to kneel after communion and not hold hands during the Our Father, I'd say it could be argued that the custom of being expected/required to stand and being expected to hold hands are Protestant in origin. (Although, I don't really know if some Protestants held hands during the Our Father before Catholics or not. There is no documentation that I know of of the first time this took place, and where.)

But, certainly not having kneelers and not having an altar rail has been the custom in many Protestant denominations ever since they came into being. I was shocked the first time I went into a Baptist church and saw no kneelers and saw no altar rail.

At my Catholic wedding, in deference to the fact that the only Catholics present were the priest, my ex-husband, and one of my aunts, and many of our Protestant friends (not to mention my atheist father) would be uncomfortable kneeling, we set up the service so that my ex-husband and I were the only ones to kneel. It took a little work, and little did we know that not that many years later, not kneeling at all in the pews would be standard in many Catholic churches, much less that the altar rail would be taken away in many churches. (My wedding was certainly after Vatican II, but the church where it took place had kneelers and an altar rail.)

I don't care if people want to stand, sit, or kneel after communion. As long as it's not against the magisterium, a person should feel comfortable in his or her choice.

As for holding hands, I'm really surprised that no one has argued that it could lead to lustful feelings. Certainly, as a teenager, when my teen church group held hands during prayers, I tried very hard to "happen" to be standing next to a guy I found attractive. In fact, much later, holding hands during a group prayer was how I met my ex-husband. And yes, I deliberately "happened" to be standing next to him. The rest is history.

[penguin31]

My default is to not hold hands, and generally speaking I try to stick that. It's normally not a problem at my home parish. If I'm visiting another parish though, and surrounded by people who desperately want to hold my hand, I'll generally follow along with it. I don't want to draw attention to myself and away from the mass all over the matter of hand holding. But barring that circumstance I really try to avoid holding hands. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the whole idea of hand holding during the Our Father feels like something you'd see going on at a protestant church.

[Chamomile]

[font="Arial"][size="2"]This was just recently posted on Fr. Z's blog, and I think it highlights why this is an issue. This is St. Augustine speaking on the placement of the Our Father in the Mass:




[quote]"Why is it spoken before the reception of Christ's Body and Blood? For the following reason: If perchance, in consequence of human frailty, our thought seized on something indecent, if our tongue spoke something unjust, if our eye was turned to something unseemly, if our ear listened complacently to something unnecessary… it is blotted out by the Lord's Prayer in the passage 'forgive us our trespasses', so that we may approach in peace and so that we may not eat or drink what we receive unto judgment." ([/size][/font][i][font="Arial"][size="2"]s. [/size][/font][/i][font="Arial"][size="2"]229,3)[/quote]




[/size][/font][color="#000000"][font="Arial"][size="2"]It's a very solemn moment of preparation. I think if we spent more time learning about why we do certain things at Mass - their significance, the history, the symbolism - it would be strange to think about holding hands at this point. To me, it's a private moment, and yet we are in expectation of being brought together as we approach Holy Communion. To me, holding hands would cheapen this, and I don't see how that prepares us to receive Christ.[/size][/font][/color]
[font="Georgia,"][color="#000000"][font="arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif"] [/font][/color][/font]

[Chamomile]

Also...

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1295120798' post='2200428']
Every single thing we do during the Mass, every movement, gesture is lined out in the GIRM, because every single thing we do, say, has a specific meaning behind it. It is NOT correct to add things to the Mass, as this breaks with the continuity of unitive worship for Catholics. PLUS a lot of the added gestures really are meaningless....

[/quote]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1295120015' post='2200422']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc0g3UMRtMM[/media]

are we soldiers? lol.
[/quote]

In the first part of the video, Cardinal Arinze was putting all of the words in his statement onto the paper with the power of his mind. Then he memorized them.

~Sternhauser

[Ice_nine]

I like holding hands. I'm one of those toucy-feely types. But not at Mass! That just seems cheesy to me and then there are the myriad of other reasons which other people have so eloquently stated.

As for the sign of peace I always thought shaking hands was just the way to go. Hugging and all that nonsense I feel is out of place during the Mass. Actually the sign of peace is particularly anxious cause I have social anxiety and it's just almost distracting and needless and I don't know what's the right thing to do ahhh! I heard that in the new translation of the liturgy the sign of the peace might be shifted to the beginning of the mass, is that true or did I hear wrong?

And when I receive Communion, I kneel before the Host and then stand up to receive. I mean it is our Lord and I feel I must show due reverence but seeing as everyone else just either stands, bows or whatever and I don't wanna attract attention to myself being the different kid. Silly anxiety issues. Whatchugonnado? I just feel like at Mass I would rather focus on God then all of this peripheral junk. There is only so much available space up there in my head!

[vee]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1295116532' post='2200396']
And I do that by kneeling down and praying for them. That is appropriate.
[/quote]

Why not kneel and pray for them before and after Mass and follow the established custom of extending a sign of peace during Mass? It is up to the priest to decide if he will include it in the Mass and if he includes it it would be a good mortification and show of obedience to follow suit.

[LadyOfSorrows]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1295137210' post='2200517']
Why not kneel and pray for them before and after Mass and follow the established custom of extending a sign of peace during Mass? It is up to the priest to decide if he will include it in the Mass and if he includes it it would be a good mortification and show of obedience to follow suit.
[/quote]

I agree. Even if one doesn't feel it "appropriate," it is still PART of the Mass, and by not participating, it's an act of disobedience. You may actually find it very humbling... Humility is a great virtue...

Edited January 16, 2011 by LadyOfSorrows