socalscout Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 Who cares? Is this really that big of a deal? Am I committing a mortal sin by holding hands as I pray the "Our Father" or I hug and kiss my son at the sign of peace? There are bigger rocks to deal with than these. As I stand before God in judgement I doubt my hand holding offenses will be scrutinized.
faithcecelia Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='socalscout' timestamp='1308164221' post='2254101'] As I stand before God in judgement I doubt my hand holding offenses will be scrutinized. [/quote] Amen!
ThePenciledOne Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='socalscout' timestamp='1308164221' post='2254101'] Who cares? Is this really that big of a deal? Am I committing a mortal sin by holding hands as I pray the "Our Father" or I hug and kiss my son at the sign of peace? There are bigger rocks to deal with than these. As I stand before God in judgement I doubt my hand holding offenses will be scrutinized. [/quote] Thank you.
Vincent Vega Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 That's not a good attitude to have. Who cares if I don't genuflect when I sit down in my pew? God knows I respect Him, so why should I go through the trouble of doing an extra action to show it? Who cares if the priest allows some lay person to give the homily? It's just a little speech in the middle of Mass, no harm done. Who cares if I receive in a state of mortal sin? God knows I'm sorry, I don't have to go to confession and all that stuff. Who cares if I show up for Mass today? God knows I love him, if I miss just once or twice a month, it's alright. And so on with the slippery slope examples increasing in gravity. Counter-argument: If it's such a "little rock" and easy to deal with, why not just cut it out?
Nihil Obstat Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='socalscout' timestamp='1308164221' post='2254101'] Who cares? Is this really that big of a deal? Am I committing a mortal sin by holding hands as I pray the "Our Father" or I hug and kiss my son at the sign of peace? There are bigger rocks to deal with than these. As I stand before God in judgement I doubt my hand holding offenses will be scrutinized. [/quote] Nobody said it was sinful. Lots of people said they're uncomfortable with it, as is their right. The way I express my own faith does not include hand holding, and in terms of my own personality it makes me extremely uncomfortable. I don't have to like it. The exact point at which I draw the line is the point at which someone tries to compel me to perform with them their extra-liturgical postures.
MIKolbe Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308166173' post='2254116'] Nobody said it was sinful. Lots of people said they're uncomfortable with it, as is their right. The way I express my own faith does not include hand holding, and in terms of my own personality it makes me extremely uncomfortable. I don't have to like it. The exact point at which I draw the line is the point at which someone tries to compel me to perform with them their extra-liturgical postures. [/quote] I guess I am a bit different. If I had a default position, it would be not to hold hands; but if someone outstretched their hand to me, I would take it. A brother or sister with an outstretched hand really doesn't make me exremely uncomfortable. But I wholeheartedly agree it is your right to not be compelled to hold hands.
ThePenciledOne Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308166055' post='2254114'] That's not a good attitude to have. Who cares if I don't genuflect when I sit down in my pew? God knows I respect Him, so why should I go through the trouble of doing an extra action to show it? Who cares if the priest allows some lay person to give the homily? It's just a little speech in the middle of Mass, no harm done. Who cares if I receive in a state of mortal sin? God knows I'm sorry, I don't have to go to confession and all that stuff. Who cares if I show up for Mass today? God knows I love him, if I miss just once or twice a month, it's alright. And so on with the slippery slope examples increasing in gravity. Counter-argument: If it's such a "little rock" and easy to deal with, why not just cut it out? [/quote] Questions before the counter-argument, just because someone says "Who cares?" does not mean it makes everything else relative... And as to the counter-argument, the question is not so much, 'why not just cut it out?' If it's already in place at a parish and if it's going to cause a lot of hub bub to eradicate it, where some thing it's a bigger rock then best to let it be, there are worst things that can be within the Mass. I think that's what he's getting at maybe, though that's just my perception.
MIKolbe Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308167855' post='2254139'] And as to the counter-argument, the question is not so much, 'why not just cut it out?' If it's already in place at a parish and if it's going to cause a lot of hub bub to eradicate it, where some thing it's a bigger rock then best to let it be, [/quote] While I can see the value of this argument, I think it puts a pastoral spin on something that wasn't designed to be pastoral to begin with... i could be wrong, though...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308166486' post='2254120'] I guess I am a bit different. If I had a default position, it would be not to hold hands; but if someone outstretched their hand to me, I would take it. A brother or sister with an outstretched hand really doesn't make me exremely uncomfortable. But I wholeheartedly agree it is your right to not be compelled to hold hands. [/quote] For me it's a combination of psychological and theological. Theologically, it's superfluous. Roughly on the level of holding a rosary or medal in your hands during Mass to help you pray. So theologically it's not necessary, which leaves some limited, reasonable freedom to us laypeople. In that context, that's where psychology comes in. I don't like holding hands. It makes me personally uncomfortable. That's all just multiplied to an enormous degree if I feel like I'm being pressured or forced. So theologically unnecessary objectively, and subjectively, on my personal level, harmful to my participation in the Mass.
Mr.Cat Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 If I were in Italy with my family, we would hold hands with nhili on both sides, just to be intimidating. We Italians do not share the American need for space and lack of contact.
Lil Red Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 if someone grabbed my hand outta nowhere, they would find themselves on the receiving end of my knuckles.
MIKolbe Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 (note to self.. Do not hold Lil Red's hand without expressed written consent)
ThePenciledOne Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1308168112' post='2254142'] While I can see the value of this argument, I think it puts a pastoral spin on something that wasn't designed to be pastoral to begin with... i could be wrong, though... [/quote] I didn't mean to put that into it... It's kinda like whatever could appear disruptive to the Mass in the setting that you are in, which will distract the normal attendees of that parish. Of course I mean this in the context of those things that are not liturgically correct. [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308169847' post='2254182'] For me it's a combination of psychological and theological. Theologically, it's superfluous. Roughly on the level of holding a rosary or medal in your hands during Mass to help you pray. So theologically it's not necessary, which leaves some limited, reasonable freedom to us laypeople. In that context, that's where psychology comes in. I don't like holding hands. It makes me personally uncomfortable. That's all just multiplied to an enormous degree if I feel like I'm being pressured or forced. So theologically unnecessary objectively, and subjectively, on my personal level, harmful to my participation in the Mass. [/quote] Ok, thank you for clarifying your feelings on this issue. : )
Lil Red Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 especially with that gun pointed at you. edit: was responding to MIKolbe's comment above TPO
Vincent Vega Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308170430' post='2254190']We Italians do not share the American need for space and lack of contact. [/quote] Or personal hygiene.
mortify Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='socalscout' timestamp='1308164221' post='2254101'] Who cares? Is this really that big of a deal? [/quote] Yes, it's THAT big of a deal. The Liturgy is Sacred, it's not some communal performance that one can do how one pleases. So keep your hands down! The orans position during the liturgy is for priests, not for laity.
Mr.Cat Posted June 15, 2011 Posted June 15, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308170827' post='2254203']Or personal hygiene.[/quote]Stereotyping? Though I suppose the space and contact issue could be seen as a stereotype, but it is an observed sociological phenomena far as I am aware. But I think it less offensive to call a group of people touchy than dirty, but that is a personal appraisal.
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