Holding Hands During Our Father At Mass

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1295140200' post='2200545']
If you hold hands at Mass during the Our Father, you are a fruitcake. You are also a fruitcake if you lift your hands up then or when you're "praying over" someone.
[/quote]

Winnie, don't ever change.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='mortify' timestamp='1308170938' post='2254204']
Yes, it's THAT big of a deal. The Liturgy is Sacred, it's not some communal performance that one can do how one pleases. So keep your hands down! The orans position during the liturgy is for priests, not for laity.
[/quote]

No one said it was a communal performance, except those (to my knowledge) that have a beef with holding hand during the Our Father.

If a parish does it, and it's not a disturbance during the Mass, then it's not a big deal at all.

I know in my own parish we do it and if someone doesn't wish to, then it's not a big deal. You still pray the Our Father regardless.

Otherwise, us laypeople can just stop critiquing how the Mass should go and if Pope Benedict thinks this form of apparent liturgical abuse has some credence to proclaim it inexcusable then let him say it. (sorry for the snarkyness here, but I find these sort of debates or discussions or whatever they are on phatmass silly.)

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308170970' post='2254206']
Stereotyping?

Though I suppose the space and contact issue could be seen as a stereotype, but it is an observed sociological phenomena far as I am aware. But I think it less offensive to call a group of people touchy than dirty, but that is a personal appraisal.
[/quote]
No, it is a fact that Italians are dirty people. Greasy too. And lesser evolved than us Nordic Europeans and Anglo-Saxons.

[Lil Red]

the criticism about imitating the priest's actions are legitimate, imho.

i've seen people imitate pretty much everything the priest does (including starting to say/sing the "Through Him, With Him, In Him" part), and I believe it started with extending hands (as the priest does) during the "Our Father." It's not appropriate. It's a clericalization of the laity.

I recently [url="http://hancaquam.blogspot.com/2011/06/response-to-pervasive-liturgical-abuses.html"]read something[/url] by Fr. Philip (he is quoting from Redemptionis Sacramentum):
[quote]45. To be avoided is the danger of obscuring the complementary relationship between the action of clerics and that of laypersons, in such a way that the ministry of laypersons undergoes what might be called a certain “clericalization,” while the sacred ministers inappropriately assume those things that are proper to the life and activity of the lay faithful.[/quote]

and

[quote]183. In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.

184. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff. It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.[/quote]

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308175566' post='2254260']
the criticism about imitating the priest's actions are legitimate, imho.

i've seen people imitate pretty much everything the priest does (including starting to say/sing the "Through Him, With Him, In Him" part), and I believe it started with extending hands (as the priest does) during the "Our Father." It's not appropriate. It's a clericalization of the laity.

I recently [url="http://hancaquam.blogspot.com/2011/06/response-to-pervasive-liturgical-abuses.html"]read something[/url] by Fr. Philip (he is quoting from Redemptionis Sacramentum):


and


[/quote]

whether it's appropriate or not is it heretical? Would it cause more trouble then it's really worth?

I'm honestly just trying to get to the bottom of this topic here, because there is a certain amount of idealization that we hold the Mass to, which is fine, since as Catholics we all strive to offer up a perfect Mass to the Lord, yet to let such things as hold hands during the 'Our Father' get into such an overpowering focus gets obnoxious to some who think it doesn't really matter at all.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308175837' post='2254263']
whether it's appropriate or not is it heretical? Would it cause more trouble then it's really worth?

I'm honestly just trying to get to the bottom of this topic here, because there is a certain amount of idealization that we hold the Mass to, which is fine, since as Catholics we all strive to offer up a perfect Mass to the Lord, yet to let such things as hold hands during the 'Our Father' get into such an overpowering focus gets obnoxious to some who think it doesn't really matter at all.
[/quote]
if, as I've posited, encouraging the congregation to hold hands during the "Our Father," truly has lead them to believe that any imitation of the priest's positioning of hands (all of which - besides picking his nose, etc - in Mass, are deliberate) is acceptable and laudable - then would it be not worthy of worrying about?

btw, this extends to the other gestures being added to the Mass by the laity, such as when the priest says, "The Lord be with you," and gestures to them, and the laity responds, "And also with you," gesturing back; or when the priest says, "Lift up your hearts," and the laity responds, "We lift them up to the Lord," (whilst lifting their hands up).

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1308175559' post='2254259']No, it is a fact that Italians are dirty people. Greasy too. And lesser evolved than us Nordic Europeans and Anglo-Saxons.[/quote] I assume sarcasm. For you're benefit.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308176853' post='2254287']
I assume sarcasm. For you're benefit.
[/quote]
see, this is why we need the sarcasm-meter.

[StMichael]

I have a problem with this as I stated, for many reasons.

We belong to the Universal Church, correct? So therefore, one parish should not perform Mass so differently from another. It has been addressed but not enforced. Many parishes in LA are telling parishioners to cut it out, others are not.

I have been at Masses where the Priest has asked the congregation to cross the aisle to hold hands.

All I want to do is solemnly worship in Church. I don't want to have to be the only one kneeling when the Body of Christ is exposed. Some may say why kneel during this time? Because Christ is present, if he was present in full body there would you stand? No, you would drop to your knees.

The things I have seen out west has been truly amazing, but what it is is a distraction from Christ and that is my main beef.

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1308175837' post='2254263']
whether it's appropriate or not is it heretical? Would it cause more trouble then it's really worth?

I'm honestly just trying to get to the bottom of this topic here, because there is a certain amount of idealization that we hold the Mass to, which is fine, since as Catholics we all strive to offer up a perfect Mass to the Lord, yet to let such things as hold hands during the 'Our Father' get into such an overpowering focus gets obnoxious to some who think it doesn't really matter at all.
[/quote]

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1308176853' post='2254287']
I assume sarcasm. For you're benefit.
[/quote]
For I am benefit from what?

[Brother Adam]

yeah, who cares about the Spirit of the Liturgy:

Let's all do what feels good

http://www.gloria.tv/?media=164417

[media]http://www.gloria.tv/?media=164417[/media]

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308175566' post='2254260']
the criticism about imitating the priest's actions are legitimate, imho.

i've seen people imitate pretty much everything the priest does (including starting to say/sing the "Through Him, With Him, In Him" part), and I believe it started with extending hands (as the priest does) during the "Our Father." It's not appropriate. It's a clericalization of the laity.

I recently [url="http://hancaquam.blogspot.com/2011/06/response-to-pervasive-liturgical-abuses.html"]read something[/url] by Fr. Philip (he is quoting from Redemptionis Sacramentum):


and
[/quote]
Yes, and that's a different argument too. I don't think it's appropriate liturgically for the congregation to adopt the orans position during the Pater's doxology. Basically, the priest takes that posture when he offers prayers to God on behalf of the congregation, if I understand the argument correctly. For the congregation to do the same is missing the point.
The trouble is that there really isn't a sense at your average Mass of the priest offering prayers on the behalf of the congregation. It's just not a part of the collective psyche right now, IMO.

[AdamUp]

In the UK I have not heard of a mass where a hand shake does not happen for the sign of peace. I have been to Masses in the UK, Poland and Italy and they have all been the same. Im surprised that this does not happen in the States. Whilest in Italy I did actually go to a Roman Catholic Philipeno mass and they did hold hands during the "Our Father". It was the first time I have ever seen this, however I welcome the sence of communtiy through it. I think we must acknowledge that even though we believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostilc Church, there are different rituals depending on where you are in the world due to local culture.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='AdamUp' timestamp='1308232599' post='2254568']
In the UK I have not heard of a mass where a hand shake does not happen for the sign of peace. I have been to Masses in the UK, Poland and Italy and they have all been the same. Im surprised that this does not happen in the States.
[/quote]
It usually does happen, though it is not necessary for the congregation to offer each other the sign of peace.
I was at a Mass for a bunch of kids finishing grade nine and moving on to high school, just a week or two ago, and the celebrant skipped the people's sign of peace. I was so happy for that. It would have just been a circus. He knew that, so he cut it out. Props to him for recognizing it.

[Papist]

[font="Tahoma"][size="3"][size="2"]Question:

Many say we should not be holding hands in the congregation while reciting the Lord's Prayer because it is not a community prayer but a prayer to "Our Father." Local priests say that since the Vatican has not specifically addressed it, then we are free to do as we please: either hold hands or not. What is the true Roman Catholic way in which to recite the Lord's Prayer during Mass?

Answer:

It is true that there is no prescribed posture for the hands during the Our Father and that, so far at least, neither the Holy See nor the U.S. bishops' conference has officially addressed it.

The argument from silence is not very strong, however, because while there is no particular difficulty in a couple, family or a small group spontaneously holding hands during the Our Father, a problem arises when the entire assembly is expected or obliged to do so.

The process for introducing any new rite or gesture into the liturgy in a stable or even binding manner is already contemplated in liturgical law. This process entails a two-thirds majority vote in the bishops' conference and the go-ahead from the Holy See before any change may take effect.

Thus, if neither the bishops' conference nor the Holy See has seen fit to prescribe any posture for the recitation of the Our Father, it hardly behooves any lesser authority to impose a novel gesture not required by liturgical law and expect the faithful to follow their decrees.

While there are no directions as to the posture of the faithful, the rubrics clearly direct the priest and any concelebrants to pray the Our Father with hands extended — so they at least should not hold hands.

One could argue that holding hands expresses the family union of the Church. But our singing or reciting the prayer in unison already expresses this element.

The act of holding hands usually emphasizes group or personal unity from the human or physical point of view and is thus more typical of the spontaneity of small groups. Hence it does not always transfer well into the context of larger gatherings where some people feel uncomfortable and a bit imposed upon when doing so.

The use of this practice during the Our Father could detract and distract from the prayer's God-directed sense of adoration and petition, as explained in Nos. 2777-2865 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in favor of a more horizontal and merely human meaning.

For all of these reasons, no one should have any qualms about not participating in this gesture if disinclined to do so. They will be simply following the universal customs of the Church, and should not be accused of being a cause of disharmony.

A different case is the practice in which some people adopt the "orantes" posture during the Our Father, praying like the priest, with hands extended.

In some countries, Italy, for example, the Holy See has granted the bishops' request to allow anyone who wishes to adopt this posture during the Our Father. Usually about a third to one-half of the assembled faithful choose to do so.

Despite appearances, this gesture is not, strictly speaking, a case of the laity trying to usurp priestly functions.

The Our Father is the prayer of the entire assembly and not a priestly or presidential prayer. In fact, it is perhaps the only case when the rubrics direct the priest to pray with arms extended in a prayer that he does not say alone or only with other priests. Therefore, in the case of the Our Father, the orantes posture expresses the prayer directed to God by his children.

The U.S. bishops' conference debated a proposal by some bishops to allow the use of the orantes posture while discussing the "American Adaptations to the General Instruction to the Roman Missal" last year. Some bishops even argued that it was the best way of ridding the country of holding hands. The proposal failed to garner the required two-thirds majority of votes, however, and was dropped from the agenda.

Answered by Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical Athenaeum. November 2003
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[font="Tahoma"][size="3"][size=2]http://www.zenit.org/article-8728?l=english[/size][/size][/font]
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Edited June 16, 2011 by Papist

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308180065' post='2254330']
The trouble is that there really isn't a sense at your average Mass of the priest offering prayers on the behalf of the congregation. It's just not a part of the collective psyche right now, IMO.
[/quote]

Especially when a number of clergy seem to discourage it in favor of so-called "communal participation" as well. My local parish priest had the congregation join him in saying "through him, with him, in him..."

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1308244992' post='2254641']
Especially when a number of clergy seem to discourage it in favor of so-called "communal participation" as well. My local parish priest had the congregation join him in saying "through him, with him, in him..."

[/quote]
Yep.

[Skinzo]

From USCCB:

"Many Catholics are in the habit of holding their hands in the [i]“Orans”[/i] posture during the Lord’s prayer along with the celebrant. Some do this on their own as a private devotional posture while some congregations make it a general practice for their communities.

Is this practice permissible under the current rubrics, either as a private practice not something adopted by a particular parish as a communal gesture?

No position is prescribed in the present [i]Sacramentary[/i] for an assembly gesture during the Lord’s Prayer "

http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/mass/orans.shtml

S.

[Cam42]

[quote name='tinytherese' timestamp='1295106582' post='2200341']
Some people think I'm being unfriendly or weird for not doing it like everyone else.
[/quote]


You are being unfriendly....you should be holding hands with your neighbor....that shows toe love that you have toward your neighbor and that is what worship is all about!!! We should just love one another and do what makes us happy. Because in the end if we're not happy at Mass, we're not happy at Mass...and Jesus doesn't like when we're not happy....

We need to share our love for one another through hand holding....at the Our Father...at Mass. So, I say hold hands. Hold hands with the person to your right...and hold hands with the person to your left...

Jesus is love and what better way to show the love; well maybe hugging at the sign of peace....

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308323704' post='2255045']
You are being unfriendly....you should be holding hands with your neighbor....that shows [b]toe love [/b] that you have toward your neighbor and that is what worship is all about!!! We should just love one another and do what makes us happy. Because in the end if we're not happy at Mass, we're not happy at Mass...and Jesus doesn't like when we're not happy....

We need to share our love for one another through hand holding....at the Our Father...at Mass. So, I say hold hands. Hold hands with the person to your right...and hold hands with the person to your left...

Jesus is love and what better way to show the love; well maybe hugging at the sign of peace....
[/quote]


what is "toe love?"