Papist Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307554371' post='2251312'] Don't be rude. [/quote] If I was rude, I sincerely apologize. However, I am very offended and scandalized by what is being described that people are doing in the Mass. I can't imagine the damage it can/will do to young children seeing such things in and during Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1307571949' post='2251432'] See, I'm not sure that I agree with that. I think it would be possible to both fully participate in the Mass and pray the rosary at the same time, particularly if one is meditating on the sorrowful mysteries. [/quote] Your total and complete focus belongs on the Altar, not praying to Mary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307679619' post='2251899'] There are a number of references to Jesus learning obedience in the Scriptures (off the top of my head there is Luke and Hebrews) I cannot see how Scripture would contain heresy! Nor can I see how this is seperating his divinity from his humanity, its the perfect combination of God who can do no wrong totally united in man who has to learn. Whilst always and completely being God, he was also a human child choosing to take on our weaknesses. Telling me I am saying his humanity and divinity are seperate does not change the fact that I am actually saying they are completely and absolutely united. I am not going to get into circular discussion with you as I see you don't try to appreciate another's comments. I will continue to keep the scriptures as my predominant textbook and getting to English Mass as often as I can (sadly not easy here) as I believe Mass in the vernacular to be most appropriate for me. Thank you for your answer. [/quote] If you can, please provide the exact scripture verse(s) and Bible translation your are using. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1307684591' post='2251920'] i wouldn't bet on it. i know of some churches that encourage 'casual' wear - and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't ask men to take their hats off. [/quote] I am not an usher, but if I saw a dude with a hat on in Mass, I certainly would instruct him to remove it. Just like I instructed a teen boy to remove his bluetooth ear piece from his ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1307685839' post='2251927'] Either y'all have fewer hats or better trained boys, because I see guys (almost always young) with hats on in restaurants nearly every time I dine out (I'm including baseball caps as hats, btw. If you remove it when the flag passes by, it's a hat to me). [/quote] We are talking about in Mass and in front of the Real Presence, not in McDonald's, Red Lobster or a ball park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Chamomile' timestamp='1307665481' post='2251836'] As far as recanting it, I'm pretty sure you don't have to do that unless you really believe it. This isn't the Spanish Inquisition.... but it's best to not write or say doubtful statements like that because they can lead others away from the truth. [/quote] Actually, judging by the tone and the tenor of some of the dingleberries who are on here, it just might be. "More bad than good has come because of LIFETEEN" Whatever, dude... (NOTE: I know that YOU, Chamomile, didn't say the ridiculous statement I just quoted above. Just saying that it seems like the sort of stupid statement that befits a good inquisition). [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1307706191' post='2251959'] I am not an usher, but if I saw a dude with a hat on in Mass, I certainly would instruct him to remove it. Just like I instructed a teen boy to remove his bluetooth ear piece from his ear. [/quote] Word! My LIFE TEEN was actually pretty good with self-governing of that sorta thing. Despite what some people on here seem to be insinuating--with the help of random videos they've found from YouTube-- LIFE TEEN [i]does[/i] promote reverence in all things, particularly as it pertains to the Eucharist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Steve' timestamp='1307698876' post='2251944'] Don't worry so much about clothes. Matthew 7: 27-30 The fact that there are youth coming to mass in the first place is a blessing and something that we should give praise to God for. I'm a young colleges student in charge of our youth ministry at our Parish. When it is hot out, I'll wear shorts and a T-shirt. The Catholic Church is a beautiful institution with traditions, beliefs and values that will always stay constant. I would never advocate changing them. At the same time though we have to realize we are living in the 21st century and (especially with the YOUTH mass) we are dealing with 21century young people. If forced to wear dresses, suits and bowties to mass they will NOT come to mass and in 40-50 years from now there will be no Catholic Church. This is not to say that I believe anything should be worn to mass. Respect should be shown. Nothing provocative, lewd, or blatantly inappropriate should be worn. Other than that, lets focus on saving souls more than we focus on what we look like when doing so (or trying to do so). Sorry had to get that out of the way. As for Life Teen, Our Parish's youth group is very young, (about 6 years old) For the first 3 years it was in shambles, consisting of a reading the readings for the upcoming mass and then doing some music among a few other things. But it wasn't very effective at all. Three years ago we started Life Teen. Aside from all the great material that Life Teen provides, it also gives great ideas and effective models for running a youth group. We started letting the older youth take on more responsibility and do peer ministry. Our youth group started to flourish and take on a life of its own. Life Teen gives great resources. It gives you weekly "Life Night" guides, which basically let you run a youth group for a night with topics, themes, talks, games, guided prayer. You can almost hand the book to a group of people who've never done youth ministry before and say do this and they will be able to put on a great youth group. They also give you the same type of guides for putting on whole retreats. These are the main two resources but there are tons of others like video's, cds, games, toys, exclusive retreats for your core. The topics are relevant to today's teens and are very Catholic to the core. Not only do they discuss social issues that most of our youth struggle with daily but it also helps give kids a great understanding of the Catholic Church. Most importantly it does (as it's motto says) lead teens closer to Christ. Now that I've said all the good things about Life Teen I must admit that we will not be using it next year. As great and encompassing as there topics are, the youth in our youth group are a special case. We live in a small town (22,000) and there's not a lot to do. Therefore we have rampant drug, gang, violence, sex, and depression problems among many of the youth in our youth group. Most of them do not go to church or attend any kind of church program (Catholic or otherwise). We believe many even have trouble believing there is a God out there. Due to this we have found the the Life Teen program is a little too Catholic. The Catholic teachings go way over most of the kids heads (the transubstantiation night was where we realized this). As great as Life Teens topics about social issues and personal relationships with God are, the program is not free and we feel we need to concentrate more on just the fact that there is a God out there that loves each one of us. We aren't using any program next year (pray for us) and are going to let the holy Spirit guide us. I'd like to finish by saying that we have a weekly average of 70 youth coming to our Life Nights (remember small town) for the past year, so we must have been doing something right. I'd say it's safe to say that Life Teen can take a lot of the credit. I highly recommend Life Teen to any person out there who is looking to start a dynamic Catholic youth ministry or wants to go to the next level with their current one. We unfortuantely need to take it down a level for our youth, but it is my hope that in a few years when the Spirit is flowing unchecked throughout our youth group we can return to Life Teen. [/quote] No, do worry about clothes...Clothes have been and will be an important aspect of morality and modesty. The more you cover the less you have to worry about. There are times and places for shorts and t-shirts...Mass isn't one of them. IF we are a "Eucharistic People" (whatever that means) and the Eucharist is the source and summit of our Faith (which it is), wouldn't it only make sense that you would want to put your best foot forward in EVERYTHING? That would include dressing appropriately. Shorts and a t-shirt might be ok for a baseball game or some sporting event, but Mass? Really? It's too much to ask that "the youth" own a pair of slacks, an oxford shirt, and a pair of dress shoes/a nice knee length dress or skirt with sleeves and a pair of flats or some other appropriate footwear? It isn't. Even the poorest kid in America can come up with that....but we're not talking about that extreme are we? We're talking about suburban-ites....How we dress is important...it conveys the seriousness in how we will worship. If you dress in a more serious manner, then the liturgical action lends itself to a more serious atmosphere...and sadly, as has been shown in several youtube videos, vice versa.... I'm not sorry I got that in, it is important. What is some of the "great material" that Life Teen provides. I'd like to see some of it. Is it online? Does it encompass the whole of the Catholic Faith or just the last 40 years? Does it teach about the great patrimony of Holy Mother Church or does it focus solely on the last 40 years? I'd like to know. It provides effective models for ministry... You live in a small town. I don't think so...try coming to where I live. I grew up in a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humboldt,_IA"]town of 4500[/url]; my brother-in-law grew up in a [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargeant,_MN"]town of 61[/url]. The towns around mine average anywhere from [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer,_IA"]21[/url]to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas,_IA"]1900[/url]. You don't live in a small town. You live in a small city, there's plenty to do... See, that's the problem...Life Teen is about Protestant ideals...social issues and personal relationship with God. How about Life Teen being about promoting and embracing Catholic teaching and catechizing the youth on that? The wheel doesn't have to be re-invented. Young people aren't going to Life Teen. They are going to the Traditional Latin Mass. It's a proven fact. Tradition is winning the day...Life Teen is blase and it is a dated and flawed way of looking at how to minister to the youth. They don't like it. They want tradition. You don't need to "take it down" for your youth, you need to challenge them. We live in the most advanced society in the world. Our youth can handle being taught Catholicism authentically. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juventutem"]Juventutem[/url] might be a valid option, since Life Teen apparently didn't work. And even though you're giving Life Teen the credit, it isn't going to be in your "small" town next year... Life Teen is flawed and deficient. It runs on a Protestant model and it doesn't work. It does not speak to Catholic mentalities, it speaks to pop culture...that is not a model to base upon, especially when the target is a Church that has outlasted 2000 years of pop culture... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG45 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307712699' post='2251981'] and the [b]Eucharist is the source and summit of our Faith (which it is), [/b] [/quote] I seem to remember another discussion, which is locked so I can't directly quote it, but I've embedded a link in my quote below and bolded what you've said is the source and summit of our faith: [quote name='Cam42'] Without the liturgy, we would not have the Blessed Sacrament. And my "obsession with all things liturgical" is not out place in a liturgical Church. Duh. The [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=113036&view=findpost&p=2246236"][b]Liturgy is the source and summit of our Faith. Bottom Line.[/b][/url] [/quote] Glad to see we're moving back on to Life Teen after getting distracted by the issue of EMHCs. Also I do feel clothing is important, and I do dress up more than I would normally to go to Mass, I'm going to be kneeling before, and receiving the King of the universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1307714271' post='2251983'] I seem to remember another discussion, which is locked so I can't directly quote it, but I've embedded a link in my quote below and bolded what you've said is the source and summit of our faith: Glad to see we're moving back on to Life Teen after getting distracted by the issue of EMHCs. Also I do feel clothing is important, and I do dress up more than I would normally to go to Mass, I'm going to be kneeling before, and receiving the King of the universe. [/quote] There is no conflict. The Eucharist and the liturgy are inseparably connected. It is correct to say both. For without the liturgical action you can have no Eucharist. The Eucharist was instituted at the Last Supper and brought about by the redemptive action of the Cross. To separate the two is impossible. [b][color="#663300"]XI ORDINARY GENERAL ASSEMBLY: Synod of Bishops[/color][/b] [quote]The Second Vatican Council treated the Eucharistic Mystery in Chapter III of the Constitution [i]De Sacra Liturgia[/i]. [b]What is said in this document about the liturgy, the [i]source and summit [/i]of the Church’s actions, concerns for the most part the celebration of the Eucharist or, as the Eastern Churches say, the “Divine Liturgy.”[/b] The topic of the next synod is to be the Eucharist in which the People of God participate in virtue of Baptism. The Eucharist is the “summit” of Christian initiation and all apostolic activity, because the Sacrament presupposes membership in the communion of the Church. At the same time, it is the “source,” because the Sacrament is nourishment for her life and mission. For this reason, the Encyclical of Pope John Paul II,[color="#000000"] [i] [url="http://www.vatican.va/edocs/ENG0821/_INDEX.HTM"]Ecclesia De Eucharistia[/url][/i],[/color] referring to the Apostolic Letter [i] [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20010106_novo-millennio-ineunte_en.html"]Novo Millennio Ineunte[/url][/i] in which he made the appeal for people to know, love and imitate Christ, states that “a renewed impetus in Christian living passes through the Eucharist.”[/quote] [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20040528_lineamenta-xi-assembly_en.html"]source[/url] I'm quite correct, thanks very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1307704196' post='2251954'] Your total and complete focus belongs on the Altar, not praying to Mary. [/quote] Ad Jesum per Mariam. [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1307706508' post='2251960'] We are talking about in Mass and in front of the Real Presence, not in McDonald's, Red Lobster or a ball park. [/quote] Oh, thanks. Here I thought Sup? Mom hath raps. was an anagram for Phat Hats Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1307715640' post='2251990'] Ad Jesum per Mariam. [/quote] Not at Mass though. There is a reason Mary didn't interfere with the Redemptive action on the Cross. There is a reason Mary always stepped back away from her Son. While she certainly shares in a special way the redemptive act, it is not one which is equal. We come to know Christ in the Mass, not through Mary, but through the Sacrifice of Calvary. Mary can be an example of how to assist at Mass, but it is not her role to mediate on our behalf at Mass. That is what the priest is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307677677' post='2251888'] What ... to the ... ever... You're dead to me. Also, using Jim's schtick doesn't work for you and it really isn't all that funny to begin with...it's a little stoopid, to be honest. [/quote] My schtick is hysterical and you are always welcome back in my eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) [font="Arial"][size="2"] [b]Life Teen Problems Go Beyond the Rubrics [font="Tahoma"][size="2"]byLeila M. Lawler[/size][/font][/b] [color="#000000"][size="2"]As a result of a meeting between Bishop Olmsted of Phoenix, Arizona (where the Life Teen movement was founded) and Cardinal Arinze of the Vatican's Congregation for Divine Worship, some changes have been ordered in the way Mass is celebrated in Life Teen, to bring it in line with the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM). Anyone who has experienced a Life Teen Mass knows that the program brings many innovations to the liturgy. Some people, like myself, strenuously object to Life Teen. Others argue that the liturgy changes and should be able to accommodate various styles, including those attractive to young people.[/size][/color][/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"][b] [/b][font="Georgia,"]How much would it take to change the liturgical practices of Life Teen for orthodox Catholics to be happy?[/font] [font="Georgia,"]I personally would never be happy with Life Teen no matter how orthodox their liturgy, and here's why.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]Life Teen is a movement that purports to bring the Mass to teens, to evangelize them and help them to live their Catholic faith more fully. I believe that most people involved are motivated by this desire and have good intentions. I think that for the most part the movement tries to adhere to the [i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i]; and if you visit the [url="http://www.lifeteen.org/"]Life Teen web site[/url] you will find fairly orthodox answers to questions regarding faith and morals posed by teens. I suppose it is possible that the Life Teen liturgy could be brought into conformity with the [i]letter[/i] of the GIRM.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]Nevertheless, I think this movement is profoundly and fundamentally flawed because it does two things. First, it separates young persons at the most decisive stage of their lives from their families. Second, it panders to the teenager's inclination to live in a mentality of entertainment.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]What we call a teenager — as if that term connotes a species separate from the rest of us — is really a [i]person[/i] on a trajectory from his youth to his adulthood. In the teen years that person is discovering who he is in relation to the family he was born in and the world he is entering. The Church, through Catholic culture built by priests and families, has always striven to integrate all the stages of life, passing along the faith by this means.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]In the history of the faith one would never find a situation in parishes in which worship was restricted by age, nor would one find some members of the family taken apart from others on a regular basis.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]Until now.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]In parishes where Life Teen is fully implemented according to its founder's vision, young people worship apart from their families every Sunday. In these parishes, in fact, you often find a "family Mass" geared toward infants and children, a Saturday afternoon Mass geared toward elders, and a Life Teen Mass on Sunday afternoons (right at Sunday dinnertime) for the teens. Every single Sunday.[/font] [font="Georgia,"](Each one of these liturgies is celebrated in a "style" that would be unwelcome to the congregations targeted for the others. The teens find the children's Mass silly, as do the elders. The elders are not able to relate to the noise of the Life Teen, the drums and synthesizer, and the anticipatory Mass on Saturday is so deliberately low-key that all but the elderly find it soporific.)[/font] [font="Georgia,"]Yet the Holy Father teaches, in [i]Familiaris Consortio[/i] (18) — as the Church has always taught — that the family is God's plan, His school, for love.[/font][/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"][font="Georgia,"][/font] [indent]The love between husband and wife and…between members of the same family — between parents and children, brothers and sisters and relatives and members of the household — is given life and sustenance by an unceasing inner dynamism leading the family to ever deeper and more intense communion, which is the foundation and soul of the community of marriage and the family.[/indent][indent] [/indent]God's plan for society is for all ages in the family to worship together.The Holy Father goes on to address the issue of ministering to one member ofthe family (say, the teenager, as Life Teen claims to do) this way:[/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="3"] [/size][/font] [font="Arial"][size="2"][indent]A form of missionary activity can be exercised even within the family. This happens when some member of the family does not have the faith or does not practice it with consistency. In such a case the other members must give him or her a living witness of their own faith in order to encourage and support him or her along the path towards full acceptance of Christ the Savior. (54) .[/indent][indent] [/indent][font="Georgia,"]But how would this take place if the members of the family never encounter each other at worship? If on Sunday — which is meant by the Creator to be the one day when life slows down and family members set aside time to enjoy each other — we have a [i]Church[/i]-instituted day of more rushing about, more separation from each other, then what have we gained? And how do we blame the world?[/font] [font="Georgia,"]The Pope writes, in [i]Dies Domini[/i] (52):[/font] [indent]Sharing in the Eucharist is the heart of Sunday, but the duty to keep Sunday holy cannot be reduced to this. In fact, the Lord's Day is lived well if it is marked from beginning to end by grateful and active remembrance of God's saving work. This commits each of Christ's disciples to shape the other moments of the day — those outside the liturgical context: family life, social relationships, moments of relaxation — in such a way that the peace and joy of the Risen Lord will emerge in the ordinary events of life. For example, the relaxed gathering of parents and children can be an opportunity not only to listen to one another but also to share a few formative and more reflective moments.[/indent][indent] [/indent][font="Georgia,"]It might be objected that parents today don't see their role this way. Society is so fragmented, parents are so distracted, and grandparents are so isolated. The only solution is to reach teens where they are, with what they know, which is entertainment experienced in isolation from everyone but one's peers. But I have never yet heard of a [i]solution[/i] to any problem that consists of [i]more[/i] of the problem, unless one is proposing to inoculate teens against frivolity by a one-time dose. That doesn't seem to be the case with Life Teen. No, rock music, group hugs, emotional entertainment masked as liturgy — somehow these are offered as the path to meaning. In addition, the problem does not exist outside the Church's ability to act. On the contrary, if pastors saw these issues as [i]part[/i] of their responsibility rather than [i]givens [/i]— as problems that they should counteract rather than immutable facts of life— perhaps we would see changes in society sooner than we thought possible.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]For example, what if pastors saw precisely the issue of entertainment as something they could influence by their teaching? What if they imparted to their flock the reality that Catholic culture has always emphasized work, worship, and celebration as proper human activities? Entertainment has always been considered at most a diversion: a small portion of life's events, a bit of piquancy to enhance the main dish. Taken out of proportion, a fascination with entertainment can mask a tendency to boredom and even despair.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]Nowadays entertainment is perceived as the goal of life, to the point that parents willingly give their children over to its pursuit. (Maybe they are caught up in the entertainment trap themselves?) In the process, they relinquish their role, which is to guide and admonish, to keep their progeny disciplined for what God may send. In most cases, what God sends is family life for our children. How well prepared to live it will they be if their only formation has been in noise and selfish alienation from others?[/font] [font="Georgia,"]Moreover, the suggestion that today's parents are too distracted seriously underestimates their true longings. Most of them are anxiously, if ineptly, seeking a way to help their children find meaning. Although we might not agree that it takes a village to raise a child, it certainly takes a family, together with a Church and a community. If parents are not doing a good job, it is certainly not for lack of interest on God's part. Perhaps the lack is elsewhere.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]Pastors of souls have relinquished their role in assisting families in the difficult but necessary task of raising children. In a way it's easier to give people what they want — which is just what pastors often accuse parents of doing with their kids. If priests are not convinced that parents have the grace of state to deal with their children, even almost-grown children, maybe it does seem logical to propose some sort of alternative plan, complete with rock concerts and movie nights. And maybe parents go along with that because they in turn have lost sight of their responsibilities.[/font] [font="Georgia,"]The answer to the question of what to do with teenagers in the face of supposed parental diffidence and teen alienation then becomes simple, although perhaps not easy: rather than try to step in with innovations that ultimately circumvent God's plan, help the parents. Begin with the meaning of Sunday. (Read [i]Dies Domini[/i], the Pope's document on Sunday worship, and [i]Familiaris Consortio[/i], the document on the family.)[/font] [font="Georgia,"]Show them an understanding of the teen years as a time for bonding with both the younger and the older members of the family. Help them find the path of fortitude in standing against the ways of the world in matters of entertainment, chastity, and use of time. Encourage them to build a life of family prayer and worship. Teach the truths of the Catholic faith on building society. Let the family become what it is, "a community of life and love!"[/font] [/size][/font] Edited June 10, 2011 by Papist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Steve' timestamp='1307698876' post='2251944'] If forced to wear dresses, suits and bowties to mass they will NOT come to mass [b]and in 40-50 years from now there will be no Catholic Church.[/b] [/quote] The Catholic Church will never cease to be, Christ Himself promised us that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). Just a friendly reminder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1307722703' post='2252023'] The Catholic Church will never cease to be, Christ Himself promised us that "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). Just a friendly reminder. [/quote] The gates of Hell might not prevail, but the beltbuckles of Milan or the tall-tees of Baltimore might! (/joke) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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