faithcecelia Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307651879' post='2251759'] That is heresy. You need to recant that. The heresy is Nestorianism...please recant it. Thank you. [/quote] It is not heresy to state that some believe something, even if that 'something' is a heresy in itself. I did not say that its something I myself believe - indeed I do not and only recently heard the idea suggested at all, but I [i]have[/i] heard it suggested so have nothing to recant. No one has to agree with my preferences as far as worship are comcerned, I have no problem whatsoever with others prefering others, but please read more carefully before accusing me of heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) [quote] It is not heresy to state that some believe something, even if that 'something' is a heresy in itself. I did not say that its something I myself believe - indeed I do not and only recently heard the idea suggested at all, but I [i]have[/i] heard it suggested so have nothing to recant. No one has to agree with my preferences as far as worship are comcerned, I have no problem whatsoever with others prefering others, but please read more carefully before accusing me of heresy. [/quote] That does not matter. The position you presented was heretical in nature. Insofar as that was presented that way, it is heresy. Trust me, I know my rules when it comes to this... To place it in the hypothetical doesn't alleviate the heretical nature of the statement. What was posited was heretical. It is a specific kind called [i]sententia de haeresi suspecta, haeresim sapiens,[/i]. In other words, if it is the theological position that only suggests but does not necessarily lead to a doctrinal conflict. Don't get me wrong, I'm not labeling you a heretic, but I am saying that you made a statement that was heretical. You cannot do that, even innocently. Edited June 9, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1307657625' post='2251801'] Any more preaching to the choir going on here? [/quote] ONLY if you start talking.... Edited June 9, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307651879' post='2251759'] The heresy is Nestorianism[/quote] I am asking this out of genuine interest. Could you please explain this further and how what I stated fits as it? Looking it up, all the info I can find on Nestorianism is that it was the belief that Jesus was 2 'beings' (not a good word, sorry) in his humanity and his divinity were not 100% united in his one being, and that this is linked to the belief that Mary was not the mother of God, but rather of a human being (again, the 2 beings rather than the one). My statement was that some believe he did not [i]know[/i] he was God, not that the human Jesus was not God. I sort of imagine it being more like a boy who is raised as a girl and never told the differences between boys and girls is still 100% a boy even though he is unaware of it. As I say, I ask this out of genuine confusion - I had actually never heard the suggestion before becoming Catholic! My VERY protestant upbringing always told me that Jesus was God and knew he was, even if he did still have to learn obedience from human parents. many thanks Faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307657356' post='2251799'] That was his only recourse. He didn't have another Catholic church to go to, so he went there. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted June 9, 2011 Share Posted June 9, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307657667' post='2251802'] If it's a Praise and Worship choir, then they could probably use some more preaching. [/quote] [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307659188' post='2251813'] ONLY if you start talking.... [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chamomile Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307660617' post='2251819'] I am asking this out of genuine interest. Could you please explain this further and how what I stated fits as it? Looking it up, all the info I can find on Nestorianism is that it was the belief that Jesus was 2 'beings' (not a good word, sorry) in his humanity and his divinity were not 100% united in his one being, and that this is linked to the belief that Mary was not the mother of God, but rather of a human being (again, the 2 beings rather than the one). My statement was that some believe he did not [i]know[/i] he was God, not that the human Jesus was not God. I sort of imagine it being more like a boy who is raised as a girl and never told the differences between boys and girls is still 100% a boy even though he is unaware of it. As I say, I ask this out of genuine confusion - I had actually never heard the suggestion before becoming Catholic! My VERY protestant upbringing always told me that Jesus was God and knew he was, even if he did still have to learn obedience from human parents. many thanks Faith [/quote] Peace, faithcecelia! I'm responding to you because likewise, I hadn't heard of this idea until I was becoming Catholic! And I heard it in RCIA, of all places... [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img] I find it odd that a good number of Catholics probably think this, so I don't think you should feel terrible for repeating something you've heard from others who seem to know what they're talking about. Sometimes we're only as good as our teachers, until we start to search out on our own or come into contact with others who have a better understanding of something. I think the reason Cam said it was heresy is because... it is. And a pretty major one, so it shouldn't be stated without answer. Jesus was fully God and fully human, without any comingling of those natures (I think the refutation of this heresy is where the term "hypostatic union" came from?). To say that Jesus didn't know He was God is to somehow divide these natures, which exist in one person, in a way that makes Jesus to be someone that He's not. I don't have a deep knowledge of how this works out (like how [i]not knowing[/i] exactly divides this union) because I don't have the philosophical language or education to explain it, but if you think about how Jesus speaks of Himself in the Gospel, and Who He is in the Blessed Trinity, the falsity of such a statement will be obvious. And the implications of such a statement do lead to more serious issues (e.g. - comparing gender confusion to Jesus' knowledge of His divinity is itself not a good thing to do...). If I've gotten some of this information about Nestorianism wrong, someone please correct me. It's good to learn about the early heresies in the Church - those that resulted in the Ecumenical Councils - because they're still around today under different names and in different disguises As far as recanting it, I'm pretty sure you don't have to do that unless you really believe it. This isn't the Spanish Inquisition.... but it's best to not write or say doubtful statements like that because they can lead others away from the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephrem Augustine Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307651328' post='2251749'] It's not a mixed bag...it is terrible...as is pointed out by my friend Father Christopher Smith, a priest of the Diocese of Greenville, SC, in this article.... In my estimation, nothing good can come from Life Teen....there has been more done to harm the Church through this organization than good. I, for one will never support it. If you want proof, I can give loads...starting with the damage that Fr. Fusek did and continuing right on until today. [url="http://www.chantcafe.com/2011/06/why-praise-and-worship-music-is-praise.html"]source[/url] [/quote] I probably would not have come back to the Catholic faith had it not been for life teen. I probably would not have given my life to God, and given up a life of sin, had God not used life teen. I probably would not have had any devotion to the real presence in the Blessed Sacrament in Adoration had it not been for life teen. I probably would have never answered a call to priesthood and religious life had it not been for life teen. be careful of your broad sweeping generalizations, they come across as incredibly self righteous. I think life teen, and EVERY OTHER movement in the church needs guidance by tradition, competent authorities, etc. And this comes from someone who has a long list of criticisms. I just find most of the criticisms in this argument mindless hearsay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='Ephrem Augustine' timestamp='1307675600' post='2251876'] I probably would not have come back to the Catholic faith had it not been for life teen. I probably would not have given my life to God, and given up a life of sin, had God not used life teen. I probably would not have had any devotion to the real presence in the Blessed Sacrament in Adoration had it not been for life teen. I probably would have never answered a call to priesthood and religious life had it not been for life teen. be careful of your broad sweeping generalizations, they come across as incredibly self righteous. I think life teen, and EVERY OTHER movement in the church needs guidance by tradition, competent authorities, etc. And this comes from someone who has a long list of criticisms. I just find most of the criticisms in this argument mindless hearsay. [/quote] You came back to the Catholic Church because of the Catholic Church. You gave up your life of sin and gave your life to God, because of the Truth of the Catholic Church. Your Faith is not dependent on any one devotion, including Adoration. Your faith is dependent upon the Catholic Church. You answered a call to whatever your vocation is, because of the Catholic Church. I'm very well versed in what Life Teen is. It is a sham. My generalizations are not sweeping, they are founded in truth. Every movement in the Church is founded upon two things: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Every movement in the Church is supported by 4 pillars based upon these two foundations: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Every movement in the Church is dependent upon 7 Sacraments. No movement in the Church claims to bring people back to the Church....it is the Truth the Church provides which brings people back. Your assessment sir, is wrong...Life Teen had nothing to do with it. The Church did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 [quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1307660617' post='2251819'] I am asking this out of genuine interest. Could you please explain this further and how what I stated fits as it? Looking it up, all the info I can find on Nestorianism is that it was the belief that Jesus was 2 'beings' (not a good word, sorry) in his humanity and his divinity were not 100% united in his one being, and that this is linked to the belief that Mary was not the mother of God, but rather of a human being (again, the 2 beings rather than the one). My statement was that some believe he did not [i]know[/i] he was God, not that the human Jesus was not God. I sort of imagine it being more like a boy who is raised as a girl and never told the differences between boys and girls is still 100% a boy even though he is unaware of it. As I say, I ask this out of genuine confusion - I had actually never heard the suggestion before becoming Catholic! My VERY protestant upbringing always told me that Jesus was God and knew he was, even if he did still have to learn obedience from human parents. many thanks Faith [/quote] Essentially the heresy emphasizes the disunion between the human and divine natures of Jesus. This is exactly what you said when you said: [quote]...Some would even say he himself did not know who he was at that stage - he certainly still had to 'learn obedience from his parents'.[/quote] Christ had perfect knowledge of all things. He didn't have to learn obedience from his parents, because he was already perfectly obedient. While Christ did take on a fully human nature, it was ALWAYS illumined by his divine nature. At no time would the two natures come into conflict with one another. To say that would be to emphasize the disunion between the divine and human nature of Christ. Your statement is a perfect example of a heresy which was condemned in 451 AD. A good start in learning about this particular heresy is [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm"]HERE[/url]. Your last statement is one of the many good explanations as to why Protestantism is a heresy as well. They hold heretical views and teach them in a manifest way. I would strongly suggest that you take the time to start with volume 1 of the Baltimore Catechism and work your way through. There are three volumes. They are not hard and they WILL give you a good base from which to expand and grow your Catholic knowledge base. Also, I would STRONGLY suggest you find your nearest Traditional Latin Mass center and start assisting at Mass there. The less Modernism you can encounter, the more easily you'll understand your Catholic faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1307662868' post='2251829'] [/quote] [mod]personal attack[/mod] Edited June 10, 2011 by Lil Red personal attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307677263' post='2251884'] [mod]personal attack[/mod] [/quote] I'm going to call this out as extremely uncharitable and absolutely uncalled for. You're better than this, Cam. Edited June 10, 2011 by Lil Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1307677263' post='2251884'] [mod]personal attack[/mod] [/quote] Be nice, otherwise he might leave and never ever come back [size="1"][i](until next week)[/i][/size]. Edited June 10, 2011 by Lil Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1307677427' post='2251885'] I'm going to call this out as extremely uncharitable and absolutely uncalled for. You're better than this, Cam. [/quote] Nope...[mod]personal attack[/mod]....I'm not going to "play nice" with him any longer...I may be better than this, but if he wants to sling mud...look out, I work in the Ag business... Edited June 10, 2011 by Lil Red personal attack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 10, 2011 Share Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1307677474' post='2251886'] Be nice, otherwise he might leave and never ever come back [size="1"][i](until next week)[/i][/size]. [/quote] What ... to the ... ever... You're dead to me. Also, using Jim's schtick doesn't work for you and it really isn't all that funny to begin with...it's a little stoopid, to be honest. Edited June 10, 2011 by Cam42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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