If God Is All Powerful, Can He Make A Rock So Big, That Even He Cannot

[PhuturePriest]

or better said.it's basically saying.

"can the unlimited limit itself? if not., then it's not unlimited. if so, then it's not unlimited". it's a no win situation, based on a play of concepts. it is better to say God is unlimited and cannot limit himself. this places logical restrictions on what God can do. but this too does lead to strange conclusions at the abstract level. it is better to say that God is reality. God cannot be contradictory. he cannot be a square circle. he cannot both be and not be.

 

God is not unlimited. He is limited to His nature. He cannot do anything He wants, because He is defined by His nature, which is reason. It's not reasonable or logical to make a rock so big He cannot lift, and so thus He cannot do this.

[Selah]

Yes. And He can lift it.

[Dr_Asik]

The idea of a "rock so heavy that God cannot lift it" is a variation on the theme of "something outside the power of an all-powerful being". It's self-contradictory. There is contradiction in the terms: one implies that God's power has bounds, the other implies it hasn't. Therefore, one can simply dismiss the question as nonsensical. Or to put it differently, God cannot actualize what is self-contradictory and that is not a real limit to his power since the self-contradictory doesn't even potentially exist.

[MIKolbe]

or...

 

'self-contradictory' is a pretty decent working definition of a lie.

 

God can't lie.  He is truth.

 

tomato/tomahto..i suppose...

[dairygirl4u2c]

this is the best i've been able to come up with after trying to organize my thoughts....

 

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Can an Omnipotent God create a rock he cannot lift?  it is said that If one answers yes to the question, then God is therefore not omnipotent because he cannot lift the rock, but if one answers no to the question, God is no longer omnipotent because he cannot create the rock.

the question is basically another way of saying the following...

"can the unlimited limit itself? if not, it is not unlimited. is so, it is not unlimited."

does the fact that we can ask those questions show that the unlimited is possible only in theory, but when examined, is not actually possible? a mere human construct that has been shown to not hold up against scrutiny?
 

not necessarily. it moreso shows the absurdity of the question. no matter how we approach it, the unlimited is then limited. calling the unlimited, limited, for the above stated reasons, is an absurd notion itself.

 

the only way to approach it is to say, if the unlimited is truly unlimited, then it cannot limit itself. that would be illogical. we must say that the unlimited cannot limit itself. this is true at the abstract level, but has troubling consequences in application. cause what gives, can he make the rock or can't he? does the inability of the unlimited being unable to limit itself translate into "no God cannot create the rock ie limit himself, he who is unlimited?" or does it translate into 'no he can create the rock cause he is unlimited, but he can't lift it?"
 

the solution lies in stepping back from the abstract, in the real world. for example, in the real world, a circle cannot at the same time be a square. if the inability for a square to at the same time be a circle shows that the unlimited is not possible, then yes, the unlimited does not exist. but in the real world, the unlimited can be said to exist, if it follows the laws of logic. this all translates into God by replacing "unlimited" with "God". the unlimited ultimately transaltes into God's abilities. so, God in the world of imagation where circles and be squares, God is not unlimited. but in the real world, God is limited by logic. perhaps it is better not to say that God is unlimited, but that God is reality, which includes logic. or at least to recognize that the unlimited can only be so in the real world where logic restricts what it really mean to be unlimited.
 

so we've examined the unlimited when it comes to the square circle, what about back to the issue of God and the rock?
 

to answer this, we need to ask another question. what happens when an immovable rock meets the unstoppable force of God?
 
the issue-- the paradox arises because it rests on two premises—that there exist such things as immovable rocks and unstoppable forces—which cannot both be true at once. If there exists an unstoppable force, it follows logically that there cannot be any such thing as an immovable rock, and vice versa.
 

so the key then is "at once". to ask if God can create both scenarios at once is a logical impossibility. God cannot do the logically impossible.
 

if God creates the immovable rock, he cannot be an unstoppable force. and if God acts as the unstoppable force, he cannot create an immovable rock. he must choose which scenario exists at any given time. and, in fact, the fact that he would be able to choose the scenario, highlights the underlying omnipotence of God to begin with.

so, as some have intuitively argued, God can create the rock, but then he can also choose to lift it. but he can't create both scenarios at once. that would be illogical.

so.. yes, in some sense, God as the unlimited has been shown to not exist... he is restricted. but.... he's merely restricted from the world of imagination, due to logic. God cannot be illogical.

so, ultimately... the notion of unlimited that follows logic hasn't been shown to not exist.... it and the following notion of God, has been shown to be possible..... as long as it's consistent, and logical.

[Credo in Deum]

Self-contradictory situations always end in nothingness. Their non-existence is the accomplishment of the "reality" they would have made had they existed.

[John Ryan]

I know it is not worth much, but I tend to equate Omnipotence with Being. To say that God is all-powerful is the same as saying that God is the ground of Being. I do not really conceive of God as Q from Star Trek.

Edited June 27, 2014 by John Ryan

[Fidei Defensor]

Self-contradictory situations always end in nothingness. Their non-existence is the accomplishment of the "reality" they would have made had they existed.

An aside — your avatar reminds me of my favorite PC game, Stronghold Crusader! It looks like it could easily be a graphic from the game.

[Selah]

I think it's funny when we as humans try to rationalize and intellectualize away a Being that transcends time, space and our understanding. 

 

He's not human He's not bound to the same laws as we are. He can work with them, and through them, but he is not subject to them.

 

Yes, Christ, the second Person of the Trinity, took on flesh, but even with that in mind, all three Persons, being consubstansial and working together, are not bound by the laws of the Universe. 

 

He could make 2+2=fish if he wanted to xD

Edited June 27, 2014 by Selah

[dairygirl4u2c]

this cartoon actually explains my position pretty well...

 

[Dr_Asik]

this cartoon actually explains my position pretty well...

Your position paints the concept of omnipotence as self-contradictory, when it's the concept of a rock so heavy that an omnipotent being cannot lift it that's self-contradictory, as I explained just a few posts above. The question is meaningless and doesn't lead to any useful conclusion. You should stop wasting your time thinking about it.

 

It's already incredible that this thread has ran for 9 pages.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Dr_Asik

[PhuturePriest]

If people really have gotten this dumb, can God still somehow manage the human race before they inevitably kill themselves?

 

That's question we should be asking.

Edited July 5, 2014 by FuturePriest387

[Dr_Asik]

It's like asking if God can create a square circle. There's nothing to answer because it's not even a real question: the terms of the question are self-contradictory.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Dr_Asik

[dairygirl4u2c]

i see flaws in my explanation above, the idea that god is only limited to creating at the same time, both an immovable object, and an unstoppable force. what if someone asked if God could create a rock that couldn't be lifted for ten minutes? 

 

there are various very deep ideas i have to that to respond, but i can't quite say they solve the problem. 

 

i'm beginning to think it can only be approached by the idea that God is not limited by logic. 

 

but then, if that's the case, can he make a square circle, or make the color black also the color blue at the same time?

 

i really don't know what to say is the case. 

 

i do know some propose the idea that God is not unlimited. 

 

i also have problems even more with the paradox, cause it seems to be ruling out even in genearl, even without regard to God and theological ideas, the idea of anything at all being unlimited. the God paradox, could basically be named 'the unlimited paradox'. 

[Dr_Asik]

but then, if that's the case, can he make a square circle, or make the color black also the color blue at the same time?

 

i really don't know what to say is the case.

Well it's very simple: a "square circle" or a "rock so heavy that an omnipotent being cannot lift it" are contradictions: they're not intelligible concepts. Your mouth may utter the words but they don't make any sense. You might as well be saying nothing or pure gibberish. Therefore, asking if God can create these is not a real question. You're seeing a problem where there is none.