dUSt Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Debra Little, do you disagree with the Catechism on this topic? [quote][b]Chastity and homosexuality[/b] [b] 2357[/b] Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[size="1"]141[/size] tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[size="1"]142[/size] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. [b]2358[/b] The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. [b]2359[/b] Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. [size="1"] 141 Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10. 142 CDF, Persona humana 8.[/size][/quote]
Adrestia Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309473361' post='2261240'] The Church is allowed to make it's own rules. But sometimes the way these rules are carried out are unkind and unloving. How we say something is often more important than what we said. [/quote] I can see that. I think sometimes people (ahem, usually me) assume that others somehow intuit that we don't mean to sound judgmental or righteous, that we are not putting ourselves above others, and that we do recognize that we are also guilty of something and suffer from our own vices. My bad.
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309473817' post='2261252'] I can see that. I think sometimes people (ahem, usually me) assume that others somehow intuit that we don't mean to sound judgmental or righteous, that we are not putting ourselves above others, and that we do recognize that we are also guilty of something and suffer from our own vices. My bad. [/quote] We are all guilty of that. Like I said I am naturally touchy and I encounter this sensitivity of mine constantly.
Seven77 Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 It's more like the non-celibate gay person denies their own Catholic burial… a public sinner (an individual who has committed a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance) who is not known to have repented can't get a Catholic funeral because they've ceased to be in communion with the Catholic Church according to their own will. That doesn't mean the individual is refuse or garbage… it just means that they're not known to be Catholic anymore. I don't know if it's been mentioned earlier in this thread but a Catholic funeral is a public ceremony… so, to avoid scandal, certain individuals will get a privately offered intention for the repose of the soul instead of a public funeral Mass for repose of their soul. And hey, look at it this way if openly gay individuals were given church funerals, certain protesters would come and cause trouble--- so why not avoid all of that and not cause families more grief?
faithcecelia Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 [quote] [b]2359[/b] Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. [/quote] Its amazing how much is actually said in these couple of sentences. I think that, unless you are used to the style of language 'disinterested' and 'friendship' can appear contradictory. I won't attempt to elaborate on this, while I 'get' it myself, I would not claim to be expert enough to go into detail, but I can see how it could be misinterperated. I think there is also the fact that callings come in various ways. When I was in Carmel there were sisters who did not [i]feel[/i] called to enclosure, and battled with it even after many, many years, but they [i]knew[/i] they were called to it by nature of their Carmelite vocation. I also have a priest friend who doesn't [i]feel [/i]called to celibacy and finds it hard (he is still fairly young too) but [i]knows[/i] he is called to it by nature of his vocation to the priesthood. Its not my place to put words in their mouths, but I imagine many Catholics with SSA do not feel called to celibacy but know they have to be by nature of their sexuality. I can well imagine they battle with the fact that this calling is not something they have had a say in, in as much as attraction is something you either feel or you dont. As such, I think that at a pastoral level there needs to be gentle and patient education - not dumbing down, but more gently guiding them through the Church's teachings and through Scripture references.
cappie Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Maybe some explanation of canon 1184 The denial of a Church funeral to one of it's members has always been an extremely sensitive issue in the Church's law. In the previous Code of 1917 a considerable care was exercised to seek balance between a necessary discipline and, a true understanding of the mercy of God, revealed in the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus our Lord. In seeking to strike that same balance, the present Code takes account of 2 relevant factors: The primary purpose of a Church funeral is to pray for the spiritual support of the dead cfr cannon 1176#2 [i]Church funerals are to be celebrated according to the norms of the liturgical books. In these funeral rites the Church prays for the spiritual support of the dead, it honours their bodies, and at the same time it brings to the living the comfort of hope. [/i] this consideration alone induces a strong reluctance to deny such a funeral to any of its members. All liturgical actions are not private but are celebrations of the Church.[i] Can. 837 §1 Liturgical actions are not private but are celebrations of the Church itself as the 'sacrament of unity', that is, the holy people united and ordered under the Bishops. Accordingly, they concern the whole body of the Church, making it known and influencing it. They affect individual members of the Church in ways that vary according to orders, role and actual participation. [/i] When therefore the law decrees that certain persons are to be denied a Church funeral, its reluctant decision is directed solely at those who by their conduct in life, have irrevocably and deliberately chosen to secede from the unity and community of the Church. It must therefore be clearly understood that the denial of a Church funeral is [b]never[/b] a penal measure in respect of a person's conduct during life.
homeschoolmom Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='cappie' timestamp='1309478329' post='2261299'] Maybe some explanation of canon 1184 The denial of a Church funeral to one of it's members has always been an extremely sensitive issue in the Church's law. In the previous Code of 1917 a considerable care was exercised to seek balance between a necessary discipline and, a true understanding of the mercy of God, revealed in the death and resurrection of Christ Jesus our Lord. In seeking to strike that same balance, the present Code takes account of 2 relevant factors: The primary purpose of a Church funeral is to pray for the spiritual support of the dead cfr cannon 1176#2 [i]Church funerals are to be celebrated according to the norms of the liturgical books. In these funeral rites the Church prays for the spiritual support of the dead, it honours their bodies, and at the same time it brings to the living the comfort of hope. [/i] this consideration alone induces a strong reluctance to deny such a funeral to any of its members. All liturgical actions are not private but are celebrations of the Church.[i] Can. 837 §1 Liturgical actions are not private but are celebrations of the Church itself as the 'sacrament of unity', that is, the holy people united and ordered under the Bishops. Accordingly, they concern the whole body of the Church, making it known and influencing it. They affect individual members of the Church in ways that vary according to orders, role and actual participation. [/i] When therefore the law decrees that certain persons are to be denied a Church funeral, its reluctant decision is directed solely at those who by their conduct in life, have irrevocably and deliberately chosen to secede from the unity and community of the Church. It must therefore be clearly understood that the denial of a Church funeral is [b]never[/b] a penal measure in respect of a person's conduct during life. [/quote] Thanks, Cappie.
CatherineM Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 My dad went to Church every week. He was a member of the men's group. He helped with the Saturday bingo. I never once got to see him receive communion. My parents weren't married in the church (or anywhere for that matter until they were over 65), so he wasn't eligible to receive communion. He was never told to leave. He was never told he wasn't allowed to enter the Church or be an active member of the Parish. He did receive last rites, but not a mass. He had a memorial service officiated at by the priest who gave him last rites. I think the thing that really makes a difference for me is the man in question not only was living openly in a gay relationship, but was also running a gay bar. In my mind that is also leading others into sin.
Norseman82 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309464429' post='2261089'] We don't have to fight our instincts. Only Obey God [/quote] But sometimes obeying God means we have to fight our instincts. We all have to fight temptations. Jesus Himself said we have to deny ourselves and take up our crosses.
fides' Jack Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309472045' post='2261212'] I apologize for being so touchy. But I don't get the impression from some here that we who are gay are loved and respected but pitied or looked down upon. I don't want to be pitied. I do not feel sorry for myself. We are too love others, no matter who they are. This isn't always easy but I ask God to help me do it. [/quote] Pity is often intertwined with love. Pity is what moves us to give a little cash to the stranger holding a sign on the street, and often what moves us to pray for someone who is struggling. I do pity those who struggle with same-sex attraction. The same way I pity the guy down on his luck and begging, or maybe someone else who is struggling with pornography, or with alcoholism, or drugs. I don't look down on them, but I do feel sorry that they have to struggle in that way. The way I see it, I deserve everlasting hell. You can't really get lower than that. Edit: That's not exactly true - I think I do look down on people who are happily obstinate in their immorality - when they don't struggle with their sins, but embrace them. I do look down on those people, but I seriously doubt anyone like that would ever come to PM. Edited July 1, 2011 by fides' Jack
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1309483825' post='2261354'] Pity is often intertwined with love. Pity is what moves us to give a little cash to the stranger holding a sign on the street, and often what moves us to pray for someone who is struggling. I do pity those who struggle with same-sex attraction. The same way I pity the guy down on his luck and begging, or maybe someone else who is struggling with pornography, or with alcoholism, or drugs. I don't look down on them, but I do feel sorry that they have to struggle in that way. The way I see it, I deserve everlasting hell. You can't really get lower than that. Edit: That's not exactly true - I think I do look down on people who are happily obstinate in their immorality - when they don't struggle with their sins, but embrace them. I do look down on those people, but I seriously doubt anyone like that would ever come to PM. [/quote] It is not same sex addiction but same sex attraction. Just like others are attracted to the opposite sex I am attracted to the same sex. I went through a lot of self analyzing and searching to figure this out. I had to make sure that it was not because of the negative things that have happened in my life but truly who I am. It's so hard to make people see this, that's it about who we are and not about addiction or illness. Believe me I denied who I was for 35 years and I was not happy. When I finally came out to just one person (my pastor at the time) I felt much better. He was always there to put me back together when I ran into trouble with this and help me when I was harassed or rejected. I came to the conclusion after a lot of soul searching that this is about who I am. The reason is because I remember when this started and it was before all the abuse in my life happened. Anyway, big storm,. Got to shut down.
Jesus_lol Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 question. why doesnt the catholic church refuse to do funeral masses for all their members that they know arent following a catholic lifestyle? no drunks allowed, no homosexuals, no people living in sin, no couples using contraception, no soccer moms abusing prescription drugs, no husbands with affairs, no fat people (gluttony can be a lifestyle too), etc? or would that mean that the church would no longer get to do proper funeral masses very often? would taking a stand against sins that are much more common in society cause their church going population to dwindle and die? Im guessing that refusing to give a catholic teenager a proper mass after they die from drunk driving would be a bit of a PR nightmare, even though they obviously died in sin (from drinking to excess), and probably made a habit of it, a lifestyle of sinning you could say.
cappie Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309501993' post='2261449'] question. why doesnt the catholic church refuse to do funeral masses for all their members that they know arent following a catholic lifestyle? no drunks allowed, no homosexuals, no people living in sin, no couples using contraception, no soccer moms abusing prescription drugs, no husbands with affairs, no fat people (gluttony can be a lifestyle too), etc? or would that mean that the church would no longer get to do proper funeral masses very often? would taking a stand against sins that are much more common in society cause their church going population to dwindle and die? Im guessing that refusing to give a catholic teenager a proper mass after they die from drunk driving would be a bit of a PR nightmare, even though they obviously died in sin (from drinking to excess), and probably made a habit of it, a lifestyle of sinning you could say. [/quote] When the law decrees that certain persons are to be denied a Church funeral, its reluctant decision is directed solely at those who by their conduct in life, have irrevocably and deliberately chosen to secede from the unity and community of the Church. It must therefore be clearly understood that the denial of a Church funeral is never a penal measure in respect of a person's conduct during life.
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309473791' post='2261249'] Debra Little, do you disagree with the Catechism on this topic? [/quote] Excuse me but God made me and He doesn't make mistakes. Furthermore I and other gays are not disordered. We are healthy people. Don't load this kind of croutons on me. This is a total misunderstanding of what it means to be gay. And it is exclusive and unloving. It is unChristian and wrong. They should be ashamed of speaking this way. Look I will tell all of you right off the bat, I am not going to defend myself to you or the Church or anyone else. Seriously what am I even doing here? Why does everything have to lead to procreation? That is nuts. There are hundreds of straight people that can't conceive. This has nothing to do with being gay. And you wonder why I talk about gay bashing. You can believe whatever you want to but I don't have to subject myself to this and I won't. If people can't be kind, then I"m outta here!
Ice_nine Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309507677' post='2261459'] Excuse me but God made me and He doesn't make mistakes. Furthermore I and other gays are not disordered. We are healthy people. Don't load this kind of croutons on me. This is a total misunderstanding of what it means to be gay. And it is exclusive and unloving. It is unChristian and wrong. They should be ashamed of speaking this way. Look I will tell all of you right off the bat, I am not going to defend myself to you or the Church or anyone else. Seriously what am I even doing here? Why does everything have to lead to procreation? That is nuts. There are hundreds of straight people that can't conceive. This has nothing to do with being gay. And you wonder why I talk about gay bashing. You can believe whatever you want to but I don't have to subject myself to this and I won't. If people can't be kind, then I"m outta here! [/quote] I really don't mean to sound offensive, but you seem to have a persecution-complex. I can't speak for how people may have treated you in the past but no one here is treating you unkindly. Perhaps if people have wounded you in the past, you might be more sensitive and thus more eager to go into defense-mode when the topic comes up, but please don't just write people off because they disagree with you. Dust was merely asking you to clarify if you agreed with the catechism or not. I do see flaws in your logic, but I see no point in addressing them if it's only gonna put you on the defensive. I don't think you're a lust-crazed monster. Do I think you're disordered? Probably, but have you seen the threads around here? I'd wager that most of us are disordered in some way or another because we're human and it happens. I would be the first to tell you exactly how disordered I am; I'm a little less jacked up than I used to be but there's still quite a mess up there in my old noggin. When other disordered humans try to point you to the right direction one's first reaction might be "Um [i]you're[/i] gonna look at [i]me[/i] and tell me I'm messed up? How about you clean up your own act pal." I understand that but if the person seems to be stumbling along in the right direction it may behoove you to take his/her advice. Maybe another person can see something you can't, and perhaps you can see something the other person can't. It helps to merge perspectives together, while looking in God's direction. I think most of the people on phatmass are stumbling along the straight and narrow. Just try not to write them off so quickly eh?
Archaeology cat Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1309510637' post='2261467'] I really don't mean to sound offensive, but you seem to have a persecution-complex. I can't speak for how people may have treated you in the past but no one here is treating you unkindly. Perhaps if people have wounded you in the past, you might be more sensitive and thus more eager to go into defense-mode when the topic comes up, but please don't just write people off because they disagree with you. Dust was merely asking you to clarify if you agreed with the catechism or not. I do see flaws in your logic, but I see no point in addressing them if it's only gonna put you on the defensive. I don't think you're a lust-crazed monster. Do I think you're disordered? Probably, but have you seen the threads around here? I'd wager that most of us are disordered in some way or another because we're human and it happens. I would be the first to tell you exactly how disordered I am; I'm a little less jacked up than I used to be but there's still quite a mess up there in my old noggin. When other disordered humans try to point you to the right direction one's first reaction might be "Um [i]you're[/i] gonna look at [i]me[/i] and tell me I'm messed up? How about you clean up your own act pal." I understand that but if the person seems to be stumbling along in the right direction it may behoove you to take his/her advice. Maybe another person can see something you can't, and perhaps you can see something the other person can't. It helps to merge perspectives together, while looking in God's direction. I think most of the people on phatmass are stumbling along the straight and narrow. Just try not to write them off so quickly eh? [/quote]
kujo Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1309510637' post='2261467'] I really don't mean to sound offensive, but you seem to have a persecution-complex. [/quote] Dude (or dudette), EVERYONE here has a persecution-complex!
Lumiere Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309507677' post='2261459'] Excuse me but God made me and He doesn't make mistakes. Furthermore I and other gays are not disordered. We are healthy people. Don't load this kind of croutons on me. This is a total misunderstanding of what it means to be gay. And it is exclusive and unloving. It is unChristian and wrong. They should be ashamed of speaking this way. Look I will tell all of you right off the bat, I am not going to defend myself to you or the Church or anyone else. Seriously what am I even doing here? Why does everything have to lead to procreation? That is nuts. There are hundreds of straight people that can't conceive. This has nothing to do with being gay. And you wonder why I talk about gay bashing. You can believe whatever you want to but I don't have to subject myself to this and I won't. If people can't be kind, then I"m outta here! [/quote] I have been in your position with this bunch before. I just want to reaffirm that yes it feels like you are being attacked because you are. They can try to hide that attack in nice words, but when it comes down to it, it hurts. I am with you.
franciscanheart Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309507677' post='2261459'] Excuse me but God made me and He doesn't make mistakes. Furthermore I and other gays are not disordered. We are healthy people. Don't load this kind of croutons on me. This is a total misunderstanding of what it means to be gay. And it is exclusive and unloving. It is unChristian and wrong. They should be ashamed of speaking this way. Look I will tell all of you right off the bat, I am not going to defend myself to you or the Church or anyone else. Seriously what am I even doing here? Why does everything have to lead to procreation? That is nuts. There are hundreds of straight people that can't conceive. This has nothing to do with being gay. And you wonder why I talk about gay bashing. You can believe whatever you want to but I don't have to subject myself to this and I won't. If people can't be kind, then I"m outta here! [/quote] I don't think anyone was intending to offend, especially dUSt. From what I think I know (which is usually so much less in reality), it sounds like you don't actually disagree with the statements, but more so with the language used.
franciscanheart Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309529895' post='2261538'] I have been in your position with this bunch before. I just want to reaffirm that yes it feels like you are being attacked because you are. They can try to hide that attack in nice words, but when it comes down to it, it hurts. I am with you. [/quote] I'm sorry I don't recognize your username. I'm sorry you've felt attacked here. While some of our members can be much more hostile and uptight when discussing these issues, some aren't so much!! Like me. I'm not hostile. See?
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