Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) There is a distinction between struggling with sin and accepting sin. A person who cheats on his wife, who then feels bad, admits his sin, goes to confession, & stops cheating would be permitted to have a Catholic funeral. A person who cheats on his wife, who then justifies his sin with whatever excuse, refuses to admit it, refuses to ask for absolution, & refuses to stop cheating would not be permitted to have a Catholic funeral. Though the sin is the same, the response to the sin is different. edit: I realize that this is an imperfect example and that real life cases are never black & white. Edited July 1, 2011 by tgoldson
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309549707' post='2261698'] If man was made in God's image, why do we have natural impulses to do "disordered" things? [/quote] According to St. Bernard, man was made in the image and likeness of God, but lost the likeness of God in original sin. The image remained intact, but the likeness was lost. The imagio Dei is man's free will, or freedom from necessity. The similitudo Dei is two-fold: the freedom from sin and the freedom from sorrow. Both of these, although lost in original sin, are restored by grace through Christ.
stevil Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309552823' post='2261717'] There is a distinction between struggling with sin and accepting sin. [/quote] Does the church recognise that some followers may not agree entirely with the Church's definition of sin. Hence the person may not feel that they are accepting sin, but simply differing in opinion with regards to the Church.
Ice_nine Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309530478' post='2261546'] I find most of the people on these Gay discussions to be hostile and aggressive under a layer of pretty words. The easy fall back for you guys is Church documents, but you never examine those documents in light of what we know to be true today. You also don't examine those documents in light of what is in the bible.[/quote] Look, let me try to level with you. I don't know you, I don't know what you've been through, I don't know what type of jack asses you have had to deal with throughout your life, so I'm not gonna say your resentment and bitterness is unjustified. Perhaps you have been hurt, or wounded by people and that smells of elderberries. And yes there are people who take stabs at people behind the shield of "pretty words," but that doesn't mean everyone who tries to address the issue with kind words is being passive-aggressive. [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309541670' post='2261633'] Again- the word 'disorder' is not used in the sense of a particular mental disease or illness. [/quote] I don't mean to hijack the thread, but what if it was? My God, no wonder people recoil at the accusation of having a dreaded "mental illness." A major reason people find it so offensive is because mental illnesses are erroneously considered to be within full control of the person. Initially I was a bit scared to be diagnosed with depression and social anxiety, but after I learned that these things had a name and that it could actually be treated it was a great comfort. In fact it was such a relief to discover this, I didn't really give a poo that people might think I'm some weak-minded hypochondriac who doesn't have a "real" illness. Up until that point I let these disorders define me. I literally thought that my depression was a part of me and I thought that if someone took it away then a part of me would be missing. Looking back I can see how screwed up that type thinking was, and I'm glad I realized it before it took more of my life away. The thing is, with the disorders I had, or still have but with much less severity, are probably the result of a perfect storm of elements: my personality type, experiences, environmental factors and other miscellaneous croutons. Now, there's nothing wrong with my personality type (well I guess that's debatable;)) but me being an introverted, introspective, perceptive, some would say "intelligent" (again debatable), perceptive, sensitive . . . none of these things are bad but they do sometimes lend themselves to feelings of loneliness and isolation which perhaps consolidated the receptors in my brain to become somewhat of a mess. It's not always cut and dried to determine what is an intrinsic, God-given part of you and what is an affliction. Like I said, I honestly became attached to depression and as horrible as being depressed is I feared if it left me I wouldn't be a whole person. I can understand how Gay people might feel the same way, only perhaps the damaging effects of homosexuality are not as immediately obvious as is with depression and anxiety. I don't know. It's a complex problem but it somewhat irks me that people see "disorder" as something to be offended by. Continue . . . I'll go back to poppin' that sertraline and livin my life g
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309556460' post='2261749'] Does the church recognise that some followers may not agree entirely with the Church's definition of sin. Hence the person may not feel that they are accepting sin, but simply differing in opinion with regards to the Church. [/quote] My weak, elementary understanding of Catholicism is that the Church certainly understands that some followers do disagree with some teachings, but that those followers are still accountable for their actions. We are supposed to be obedient, even when we don't understand or agree.
stevil Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309557766' post='2261756'] My weak, elementary understanding of Catholicism is that the Church certainly understands that some followers do disagree with some teachings, but that those followers are still accountable for their actions. We are supposed to be obedient, even when we don't understand or agree. [/quote] Wouldn't it be difficult to go against your own understanding of what is right and wrong, simply to be in alignment with the church? Would you then feel resentment that you are forced to do intentional wrong? If your god knows everything and can read your heart and your intent could your god not continue to love you and accept you for your attempts to be good (even if those attempt are misguided). Are you out to please your church or your god. I understand that the church tells you that it is divinely guided and infallible, but I am sure some Catholics have their doubts, especially when their hearts differ on some moral aspects.
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309559301' post='2261761'] Wouldn't it be difficult to go against your own understanding of what is right and wrong, simply to be in alignment with the church? Would you then feel resentment that you are forced to do intentional wrong? If your god knows everything and can read your heart and your intent could your god not continue to love you and accept you for your attempts to be good (even if those attempt are misguided). Are you out to please your church or your god. I understand that the church tells you that it is divinely guided and infallible, but I am sure some Catholics have their doubts, especially when their hearts differ on some moral aspects. [/quote] Of course it's difficult, but nothing worth having is easy. Submitting to authority takes great humility - I struggle with it constantly. There was a time in my youth when I basically ignored the rules that I thought were wrong. It wasn't because the rules were difficult for me to follow, but because I trusted my own research and my feelings over the Church. Over time, I came to understand the roots of some of those rules. There are still some things that I do not understand, but I now realize that I am not qualified to decide if the teachings are right. When I chose to stay Catholic, I chose to accept that I do not know everything and I chose to trust that the Church established by Christ and His apostles over 2,000 years ago might know better than I do. That does not mean that I can easily follow all the rules all the time - I fail, I make mistakes, I am so weak and pathetic, but I will not give up. What do you mean by intentional wrong? Can you give an example?
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309465366' post='2261110'] So the man calling you fat was mean for telling you the truth? Would you feel the same if it were your doctor? The Church is a doctor of the soul, but not all souls listen. Do you really mean is truth is only acceptable if it agrees with your own perception and what you want to hear? I really doubt that is true. [/quote] THe Church is not the doctor of the soul. God is!
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309480613' post='2261319'] But sometimes obeying God means we have to fight our instincts. We all have to fight temptations. Jesus Himself said we have to deny ourselves and take up our crosses. [/quote] Being gay is not a temptation. It's who we are! Just like you are who you are.
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309529895' post='2261538'] I have been in your position with this bunch before. I just want to reaffirm that yes it feels like you are being attacked because you are. They can try to hide that attack in nice words, but when it comes down to it, it hurts. I am with you. [/quote] Thank You! Greatly Appredcited!
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1309557022' post='2261754'] I don't mean to hijack the thread, but what if it was? My God, no wonder people recoil at the accusation of having a dreaded "mental illness." A major reason people find it so offensive is because mental illnesses are erroneously considered to be within full control of the person. Initially I was a bit scared to be diagnosed with depression and social anxiety, but after I learned that these things had a name and that it could actually be treated it was a great comfort. In fact it was such a relief to discover this, I didn't really give a poo that people might think I'm some weak-minded hypochondriac who doesn't have a "real" illness. Up until that point I let these disorders define me. I literally thought that my depression was a part of me and I thought that if someone took it away then a part of me would be missing. Looking back I can see how screwed up that type thinking was, and I'm glad I realized it before it took more of my life away. The thing is, with the disorders I had, or still have but with much less severity, are probably the result of a perfect storm of elements: my personality type, experiences, environmental factors and other miscellaneous croutons. Now, there's nothing wrong with my personality type (well I guess that's debatable;)) but me being an introverted, introspective, perceptive, some would say "intelligent" (again debatable), perceptive, sensitive . . . none of these things are bad but they do sometimes lend themselves to feelings of loneliness and isolation which perhaps consolidated the receptors in my brain to become somewhat of a mess. It's not always cut and dried to determine what is an intrinsic, God-given part of you and what is an affliction. Like I said, I honestly became attached to depression and as horrible as being depressed is I feared if it left me I wouldn't be a whole person. I can understand how Gay people might feel the same way, only perhaps the damaging effects of homosexuality are not as immediately obvious as is with depression and anxiety. I don't know. It's a complex problem but it somewhat irks me that people see "disorder" as something to be offended by. Continue . . . I'll go back to poppin' that sertraline and livin my life g [/quote] I apologize if it sounded as though I was trying to perpetuate the unfortunate thought that "mental illness" is bad or embarrassing. I was just explaining the technical use of the word 'disorder' in Catholic theology.
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309529900' post='2261539'] I don't think anyone was intending to offend, especially dUSt. From what I think I know (which is usually so much less in reality), it sounds like you don't actually disagree with the statements, but more so with the language used. [/quote] I disgree with the part that says we "are instrisically disordered." I am not disordered. I am a healthy human being, physically, spirituallly and emotionally. And I don't have a persedcution complex. It doesn't even matter what they are saying to me so much as it does that some here are spouting their ignorance and having no understanding or kindness. Mostly, yes, it's the wording. The Church will do what the Church will do and if I am there, well then I keep the rules. But I don't have to agree with anything. This stuff offends who we are as people, as children of God.
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309529977' post='2261541'] I'm sorry I don't recognize your username. I'm sorry you've felt attacked here. While some of our members can be much more hostile and uptight when discussing these issues, some aren't so much!! Like me. I'm not hostile. See? [/quote] I'm Deb. Something is wrong here. I can't get into my profile and trying to put in a new password didn't work. IT's not taking.
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309532481' post='2261563'] I was born heterosexual. Our lives don't have to be dominated by our sexual desires. I have a desire to have sex with women. I had a desire to have sex with women before I was married. I have a desire to have sex with women other than my wife. I have a desire to masturbate. [b]God made me that way. [/b] Should I act out on all these desires, or promote them as being acceptable? It's not all about homosexuality. It's about being virtuous in the face of temptation. [/quote] what sexual desires? that is very funny?
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309549707' post='2261698'] If man was made in God's image, why do we have natural impulses to do "disordered" things? [/quote] You were taught this. I'm not sure it will be ever be possible for some of you to be open minded and open hearted. You are bound to your own thoughts and you refuse to consider anything else. Pity!
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 I am not saying one more word in this thread. Tempers have flared and we've been unloving to each other. I think it should be removed from this forum.
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309561595' post='2261777'] I disgree with the part that says we "are instrisically disordered." I am not disordered. I am a healthy human being, physically, spirituallly and emotionally. And I don't have a persedcution complex. It doesn't even matter what they are saying to me so much as it does that some here are spouting their ignorance and having no understanding or kindness. Mostly, yes, it's the wording. The Church will do what the Church will do and if I am there, well then I keep the rules. But I don't have to agree with anything. This stuff offends who we are as people, as children of God. [/quote] It said that acts are intrinsically disordered, not people. In fact, a USCCB document from 2006 clearly makes that distinction.
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309562056' post='2261783'] It said that acts are intrinsically disordered, not people. In fact, a USCCB document from 2006 clearly makes that distinction. [/quote] It's only disordered if you are straight lol. It's not disordered for us gays. It's natural.
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309562178' post='2261784'] It's only disordered if you are straight lol. It's not disordered for us gays. It's natural. [/quote] The same document says that straight people also have natural desires that are classified as disordered. Is it the wording that offends you? I think that the Church uses vocabulary that has undesired connotations when translated into English. (For example, there was a huge uproar when Mary was called coredemptrix because some folks thought that she was being equated to Christ.) By the way, I'm glad that you're still posting here.
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309541670' post='2261633'] I both agree... and disagree... The desire to masturbate is not in itself wrong- true. There is no sin in the desire. BUT, and distinctions are important here, the desire [b]is[/b] disordered. In exactly the same way that SSA is disordered. "Disorder" means 'not ordered to its proper end'. Masturbation is sex with oneself. It is not ordered toward the natural end of sexual activity/desire. SSA is not wrong. There is no sin in being attracted to a person of the same sex. But, the desire itself is not ordered toward the natural end of sexual activity/desire either. [b]Much of what we run into that causes problem is an inexact use of language. English is one of the most difficult languages to be precise in. The Catechism is written in precise language. As are Church documents. Again- the word 'disorder' is not used in the sense of a particular mental disease or illness... it literally means 'not ordered to its natural end'. Natural end is even an exact term, because it comes from natural philosophy and the four causes: final, formal, material, and efficient. The natural end of something corresponds with the final cause. "What's its purpose?"[/b] We live in a fallen world. We are born into a fallen world. That means we are born with desires that are disordered... ALL OF US!! Sin, in its most basic definition, is disorder. Precisely because whatever action sin happens to be, it is not ordered toward God. And the desire to sin, which of course is not sin itself and therefore not 'wrong', is also disordered. This afflicts all of us in many, many different ways. Good news, though!! Jesus came to save us from the power of sin!! Grace restores, or to be technical, [b]re-orders[/b] both our disordered actions (so we stop sinning and turn to love God more) and eventually, although likely only in heaven, our disordered desires (no desire for action of any kind that is not directed perfectly toward God as our final end). Interestingly enough, St. Bernard teaches that our freedom from sorrow (his technical term for the re-ordering of our disordered desires) is only accomplished perfectly in Heaven and only few experience it briefly here on Earth. God loves each of us exactly as we are. He made us, He knows us. God could have made us perfect, without faults, without disordered desires, without sin. But He allowed original sin, in His Divine Providence, because He knew He could draw even greater good from it than if there had been no original sin!! God loves us so much, right now, exactly as we are, that His love moves us and covers us with His grace to purify us, to elevate us (remember, grace does not destroy nature, but elevates it), and to bring all of our desires into perfect order, directed perfectly toward Him. [b]Remember... "God works all things together for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose" Romans 8:28[/b] [/quote]
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