Socrates Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309458250' post='2260960'] No, you misunderstand my point, which is that the notion that the family of a relative who has died has to hear that a Catholic funeral would be a "scandal" is absurd. Someone said a few pages back that what is "scandalous" in one area isn't so in others. In certain areas of this country, there are people who think that it's okay to persecute interracial couples because they have a "moral standard." For those people, serving them would be tacit endorsement of that lifestyle, one that would be "scandalous" in their community. Similarly, the churches who are doing this seem to be the ones [i]creating[/i] the scandals, with their punitive and hateful exclusions. [/quote] As I've pointed out earlier, the definition of scandal here is leading others into sin, or giving the impression that something is okay that is not. And homosexual activity is intrinsically immoral, whereas interracial marriage is not. What "some people think" is irrelevant - it's what Christ's Church teaches that matters here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309471218' post='2261201'] It's not only the Catholic Church that does this but many churches. People Christian and non Christian are guilty of this. As a Church we are guilty of not loving those who are different than us. [/quote] So where is the line? Let anyone do whatever so the Church appears to be loving? If so, then why even have rules in the first place? I don't understand how following an established rule = not loving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Also, it is my understanding that the Church does not capriciously exclude people; but people exclude themselves from the Church with their choices and their behavior. One could make the argument that a person who decides to live a life that is blatantly against Church teachings does not really love the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309471614' post='2261208'] So where is the line? Let anyone do whatever so the Church appears to be loving? If so, then why even have rules in the first place? I don't understand how following an established rule = not loving. [/quote] I'm not suggesting there be no rules. There would be chaos and anarchy. No, it is not up to us to run our lives but it is for us to follow the commands of God's World. We have to take into account though, that over many years, the Bible has been translated and retranslated so many times that it has come to be misunderstood and taken out of context. I apologize for being so touchy. But I don't get the impression from some here that we who are gay are loved and respected but pitied or looked down upon. I don't want to be pitied. I do not feel sorry for myself. We are too love others, no matter who they are. This isn't always easy but I ask God to help me do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309471928' post='2261209'] Also, it is my understanding that the Church does not capriciously exclude people; but people exclude themselves from the Church with their choices and their behavior. One could make the argument that a person who decides to live a life that is blatantly against Church teachings does not really love the Church. [/quote] It is not a choice to be gay or lesbian or anything else. It is who we are and nothing else. And it is a very small part of who we are. Yet people get all bent out of shape over this one part of us. I am overly sensitive in the first place and it has been very hard for me to keep my cool here and reign in my anger. I prayed to God to help me not to be angry but to understand. I apologize if I've offended any of my brothers and sisters and judged them. I don't have that right. That is up to God alone. Please don't be offended because of who I am. It is Not a choice. I have been this way all my life. It wasn't something I decided to do or be. There are things in it that I do decide upon. Such as remaining celebate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309472337' post='2261216'] It is not a choice to be gay or lesbian or anything else. It is who we are and nothing else. And it is a very small part of who we are. Yet people get all bent out of shape over this one part of us. I am overly sensitive in the first place and it has been very hard for me to keep my cool here and reign in my anger. I prayed to God to help me not to be angry but to understand. I apologize if I've offended any of my brothers and sisters and judged them. I don't have that right. That is up to God alone. Please don't be offended because of who I am. It is Not a choice. I have been this way all my life. It wasn't something I decided to do or be. There are things in it that I do decide upon. Such as remaining celebate. [/quote] Thank you for sharing that part of you with us, however small. I wish I had more interaction with such faithful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Debra, If it makes you feel any better, I do not pity or look down on you (or anyone) for being homosexual. I do understand how easy it is to be upset by things written on message boards, and I've certainly allowed things to get under my skin in the past. Back to the topic: Is your argument that the Church teaching on homosexuality is incorrect due to misinterpretation of the Scripture? If so, that still doesn't equate following the rule to not loving a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309472597' post='2261220'] Thank you for sharing that part of you with us, however small. I wish I had more interaction with such faithful. [/quote] You are welcome. And I will try not to be so touchy and sensitive. It's always been one of my worst faults. I go to St. Jude when I'm tempted. He has been an invaluable help to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309473012' post='2261229'] Debra, If it makes you feel any better, I do not pity or look down on you (or anyone) for being homosexual. I do understand how easy it is to be upset by things written on message boards, and I've certainly allowed things to get under my skin in the past. Back to the topic: Is your argument that the Church teaching on homosexuality is incorrect due to misinterpretation of the Scripture? If so, that still doesn't equate following the rule to not loving a person. [/quote] I'm not saying anything about the Church rule. It is what is if and someone wants to be a part of the Church then you follow the rules. I am speaking of the many times the Bible has been translated. I know these scholars are very careful but something is always lost in translation. Prior to 1948, the Bibles used to read differently on this. The Church is allowed to make it's own rules. But sometimes the way these rules are carried out are unkind and unloving. How we say something is often more important than what we said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309465760' post='2261122'] The Church doesn't exclude anyone. No one physically prevented him from entering a church to attend mass. He made the choice to not attend. No one refused him last rites, he did not ask for them. No one prevented him from entering the confessional. He chose to avoid reconciliation. [/quote] Truest pearls of wisdom on this thread. Sadly, they're probably being thrown before the swine here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Debra Little, do you disagree with the Catechism on this topic? [quote][b]Chastity and homosexuality[/b] [b] 2357[/b] Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,[size="1"]141[/size] tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."[size="1"]142[/size] They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. [b]2358[/b] The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. [b]2359[/b] Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. [size="1"] 141 Cf. Gen 191-29; Rom 124-27; 1 Cor 6:10; 1 Tim 1:10. 142 CDF, Persona humana 8.[/size][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309473361' post='2261240'] The Church is allowed to make it's own rules. But sometimes the way these rules are carried out are unkind and unloving. How we say something is often more important than what we said. [/quote] I can see that. I think sometimes people (ahem, usually me) assume that others somehow intuit that we don't mean to sound judgmental or righteous, that we are not putting ourselves above others, and that we do recognize that we are also guilty of something and suffer from our own vices. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309473817' post='2261252'] I can see that. I think sometimes people (ahem, usually me) assume that others somehow intuit that we don't mean to sound judgmental or righteous, that we are not putting ourselves above others, and that we do recognize that we are also guilty of something and suffer from our own vices. My bad. [/quote] We are all guilty of that. Like I said I am naturally touchy and I encounter this sensitivity of mine constantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seven77 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 It's more like the non-celibate gay person denies their own Catholic burial… a public sinner (an individual who has committed a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance) who is not known to have repented can't get a Catholic funeral because they've ceased to be in communion with the Catholic Church according to their own will. That doesn't mean the individual is refuse or garbage… it just means that they're not known to be Catholic anymore. I don't know if it's been mentioned earlier in this thread but a Catholic funeral is a public ceremony… so, to avoid scandal, certain individuals will get a privately offered intention for the repose of the soul instead of a public funeral Mass for repose of their soul. And hey, look at it this way if openly gay individuals were given church funerals, certain protesters would come and cause trouble--- so why not avoid all of that and not cause families more grief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faithcecelia Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote] [b]2359[/b] Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. [/quote] Its amazing how much is actually said in these couple of sentences. I think that, unless you are used to the style of language 'disinterested' and 'friendship' can appear contradictory. I won't attempt to elaborate on this, while I 'get' it myself, I would not claim to be expert enough to go into detail, but I can see how it could be misinterperated. I think there is also the fact that callings come in various ways. When I was in Carmel there were sisters who did not [i]feel[/i] called to enclosure, and battled with it even after many, many years, but they [i]knew[/i] they were called to it by nature of their Carmelite vocation. I also have a priest friend who doesn't [i]feel [/i]called to celibacy and finds it hard (he is still fairly young too) but [i]knows[/i] he is called to it by nature of his vocation to the priesthood. Its not my place to put words in their mouths, but I imagine many Catholics with SSA do not feel called to celibacy but know they have to be by nature of their sexuality. I can well imagine they battle with the fact that this calling is not something they have had a say in, in as much as attraction is something you either feel or you dont. As such, I think that at a pastoral level there needs to be gentle and patient education - not dumbing down, but more gently guiding them through the Church's teachings and through Scripture references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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