TeresaBenedicta Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1309557022' post='2261754'] I don't mean to hijack the thread, but what if it was? My God, no wonder people recoil at the accusation of having a dreaded "mental illness." A major reason people find it so offensive is because mental illnesses are erroneously considered to be within full control of the person. Initially I was a bit scared to be diagnosed with depression and social anxiety, but after I learned that these things had a name and that it could actually be treated it was a great comfort. In fact it was such a relief to discover this, I didn't really give a poo that people might think I'm some weak-minded hypochondriac who doesn't have a "real" illness. Up until that point I let these disorders define me. I literally thought that my depression was a part of me and I thought that if someone took it away then a part of me would be missing. Looking back I can see how screwed up that type thinking was, and I'm glad I realized it before it took more of my life away. The thing is, with the disorders I had, or still have but with much less severity, are probably the result of a perfect storm of elements: my personality type, experiences, environmental factors and other miscellaneous croutons. Now, there's nothing wrong with my personality type (well I guess that's debatable;)) but me being an introverted, introspective, perceptive, some would say "intelligent" (again debatable), perceptive, sensitive . . . none of these things are bad but they do sometimes lend themselves to feelings of loneliness and isolation which perhaps consolidated the receptors in my brain to become somewhat of a mess. It's not always cut and dried to determine what is an intrinsic, God-given part of you and what is an affliction. Like I said, I honestly became attached to depression and as horrible as being depressed is I feared if it left me I wouldn't be a whole person. I can understand how Gay people might feel the same way, only perhaps the damaging effects of homosexuality are not as immediately obvious as is with depression and anxiety. I don't know. It's a complex problem but it somewhat irks me that people see "disorder" as something to be offended by. Continue . . . I'll go back to poppin' that sertraline and livin my life g [/quote] I apologize if it sounded as though I was trying to perpetuate the unfortunate thought that "mental illness" is bad or embarrassing. I was just explaining the technical use of the word 'disorder' in Catholic theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309529900' post='2261539'] I don't think anyone was intending to offend, especially dUSt. From what I think I know (which is usually so much less in reality), it sounds like you don't actually disagree with the statements, but more so with the language used. [/quote] I disgree with the part that says we "are instrisically disordered." I am not disordered. I am a healthy human being, physically, spirituallly and emotionally. And I don't have a persedcution complex. It doesn't even matter what they are saying to me so much as it does that some here are spouting their ignorance and having no understanding or kindness. Mostly, yes, it's the wording. The Church will do what the Church will do and if I am there, well then I keep the rules. But I don't have to agree with anything. This stuff offends who we are as people, as children of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='franciscanheart' timestamp='1309529977' post='2261541'] I'm sorry I don't recognize your username. I'm sorry you've felt attacked here. While some of our members can be much more hostile and uptight when discussing these issues, some aren't so much!! Like me. I'm not hostile. See? [/quote] I'm Deb. Something is wrong here. I can't get into my profile and trying to put in a new password didn't work. IT's not taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309532481' post='2261563'] I was born heterosexual. Our lives don't have to be dominated by our sexual desires. I have a desire to have sex with women. I had a desire to have sex with women before I was married. I have a desire to have sex with women other than my wife. I have a desire to masturbate. [b]God made me that way. [/b] Should I act out on all these desires, or promote them as being acceptable? It's not all about homosexuality. It's about being virtuous in the face of temptation. [/quote] what sexual desires? that is very funny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309549707' post='2261698'] If man was made in God's image, why do we have natural impulses to do "disordered" things? [/quote] You were taught this. I'm not sure it will be ever be possible for some of you to be open minded and open hearted. You are bound to your own thoughts and you refuse to consider anything else. Pity! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 I am not saying one more word in this thread. Tempers have flared and we've been unloving to each other. I think it should be removed from this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309561595' post='2261777'] I disgree with the part that says we "are instrisically disordered." I am not disordered. I am a healthy human being, physically, spirituallly and emotionally. And I don't have a persedcution complex. It doesn't even matter what they are saying to me so much as it does that some here are spouting their ignorance and having no understanding or kindness. Mostly, yes, it's the wording. The Church will do what the Church will do and if I am there, well then I keep the rules. But I don't have to agree with anything. This stuff offends who we are as people, as children of God. [/quote] It said that acts are intrinsically disordered, not people. In fact, a USCCB document from 2006 clearly makes that distinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309562056' post='2261783'] It said that acts are intrinsically disordered, not people. In fact, a USCCB document from 2006 clearly makes that distinction. [/quote] It's only disordered if you are straight lol. It's not disordered for us gays. It's natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309562178' post='2261784'] It's only disordered if you are straight lol. It's not disordered for us gays. It's natural. [/quote] The same document says that straight people also have natural desires that are classified as disordered. Is it the wording that offends you? I think that the Church uses vocabulary that has undesired connotations when translated into English. (For example, there was a huge uproar when Mary was called coredemptrix because some folks thought that she was being equated to Christ.) By the way, I'm glad that you're still posting here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309541670' post='2261633'] I both agree... and disagree... The desire to masturbate is not in itself wrong- true. There is no sin in the desire. BUT, and distinctions are important here, the desire [b]is[/b] disordered. In exactly the same way that SSA is disordered. "Disorder" means 'not ordered to its proper end'. Masturbation is sex with oneself. It is not ordered toward the natural end of sexual activity/desire. SSA is not wrong. There is no sin in being attracted to a person of the same sex. But, the desire itself is not ordered toward the natural end of sexual activity/desire either. [b]Much of what we run into that causes problem is an inexact use of language. English is one of the most difficult languages to be precise in. The Catechism is written in precise language. As are Church documents. Again- the word 'disorder' is not used in the sense of a particular mental disease or illness... it literally means 'not ordered to its natural end'. Natural end is even an exact term, because it comes from natural philosophy and the four causes: final, formal, material, and efficient. The natural end of something corresponds with the final cause. "What's its purpose?"[/b] We live in a fallen world. We are born into a fallen world. That means we are born with desires that are disordered... ALL OF US!! Sin, in its most basic definition, is disorder. Precisely because whatever action sin happens to be, it is not ordered toward God. And the desire to sin, which of course is not sin itself and therefore not 'wrong', is also disordered. This afflicts all of us in many, many different ways. Good news, though!! Jesus came to save us from the power of sin!! Grace restores, or to be technical, [b]re-orders[/b] both our disordered actions (so we stop sinning and turn to love God more) and eventually, although likely only in heaven, our disordered desires (no desire for action of any kind that is not directed perfectly toward God as our final end). Interestingly enough, St. Bernard teaches that our freedom from sorrow (his technical term for the re-ordering of our disordered desires) is only accomplished perfectly in Heaven and only few experience it briefly here on Earth. God loves each of us exactly as we are. He made us, He knows us. God could have made us perfect, without faults, without disordered desires, without sin. But He allowed original sin, in His Divine Providence, because He knew He could draw even greater good from it than if there had been no original sin!! God loves us so much, right now, exactly as we are, that His love moves us and covers us with His grace to purify us, to elevate us (remember, grace does not destroy nature, but elevates it), and to bring all of our desires into perfect order, directed perfectly toward Him. [b]Remember... "God works all things together for good for those who love him and are called according to his purpose" Romans 8:28[/b] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309561857' post='2261781'] You were taught this. I'm not sure it will be ever be possible for some of you to be open minded and open hearted. You are bound to your own thoughts and you refuse to consider anything else. Pity! [/quote] Im not sure if you are actually reading this thread at all. i am one of the few people in here that could be said to be on your side, but you dont seem to realize that. when that persecution complex makes you think that people agreeing with you are attacking you, maybe you need to take it down a notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309561595' post='2261777'] I disgree with the part that says we "are instrisically disordered." I am not disordered. I am a healthy human being, physically, spirituallly and emotionally. [/quote] Debra, the catechism does [b]not [/b]say you are disordered. You are reading it wrong. It says homosexual [b]acts[/b] are disordered. I pointed out how the Catechism uses the [b]exact same language[/b] when it talks about masturbation. Masturbation occurs among all people, gay or straight--so please don't think the Church is discriminating against homosexuals. I cannot pretend to understand how hard it must be for a homosexual person to live a life of chastity because they want to remain obedient to the church. I imagine it's similar to what a priest or nun would struggle with. I can only relate in a very small way with my own struggle with immoral sexual urges. Please know that I'm not trying to attack you at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309564559' post='2261810'] so please don't think the Church is discriminating against homosexuals. [/quote] making statements that it is OK for one group of people to have sex but not OK for another group is discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309564834' post='2261814'] making statements that it is OK for one group of people to have sex but not OK for another group is discrimination. [/quote] It is okay for one group of people (women) to give birth, but it is not okay for the other (men). Are you saying God discriminated? Let me rephrase. The church does not [b]unjustly[/b] discriminate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309561267' post='2261772'] Being gay is not a temptation. It's who we are! Just like you are who you are. [/quote] OK, let's just come right out with it. Do you believe that homosexual sex is a sin? [ ] - Yes [ ] - No Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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