Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309647698' post='2262305'] So what if he didn't use the term "SSA" or "gay agenda". It doesn't mean that they do not exist. There's more to official Church teaching and magisterium than one Cardinal's blog. [/quote] This is a "Prince of the Church" and he should know "official Church teaching and (the) magisterium". He simply said, "As Catholics, we must oppose the hatred and rejection of homosexual persons that exists in our society. We do not want them to be the object of discrimination or violence." "The Church has often warned against defining people by their sexual orientation in a way that diminishes their humanity." "We must strive to eradicate prejudices against people with a homosexual orientation." The "Church Militants" often call on homosexuals to submit to the teachings of the Church, I would suggest the "Church Militants" should also consider submiting to the teachings of the Church.
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) [url="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5h5kwXHE_zqvKJp92adJjWeXxZmyg"]Cardinal Javier Lozano Barragan[/url] is a bit more blunt about some things than Cardinal O'Malley, but he also said that while the Church regarded homosexuality as an "insult to God", this did not justify discrimination against gay and transsexual people. He is quoted as saying, "Homosexuality is therefore a sin, but this does not justify any form of discrimination. God alone has the right to judge,...We on earth cannot condemn, and as human beings we all have the same rights." He actually drew a [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/6711601/Gays-and-transsexuals-will-never-go-to-Heaven-cardinal-says.html"]rebuke[/url] from the vatican for his anti-homosexual remarks that I didn't quote above. Edited July 2, 2011 by Lumiere
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) The Document by USCCB "Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care" states, "All people are created in the image and likeness of God and thus possess an innate humandignity that must be acknowledged and respected. In keeping with this conviction, the Church teaches that persons with a homosexual inclination 'must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.' We recognize that these persons have been, and often continue to be, objects of scorn, hatred, and even violence in some sectors of our society. Sometimes this hatred is manifested clearly; other times, it is masked and gives rise to more disguised forms of hatred. It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. Those who would minister in the name of the Church must in no way contribute to such injustice. They should prayerfully examine their own hearts in order to discern any thoughts or feelings that might stand in need of purification. Those who minister are also called to growth in holiness. In fact, the work of spreading the Good News involves an ever-increasing love for those to whom one is ministering by calling them to the truth of Jesus Christ." Edited July 2, 2011 by Lumiere
Lumiere Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 STATEMENT OF THE HOLY SEE DELEGATION AT THE 63rd SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE UNITED NATIONS ON THE DECLARATION ON HUMAN RIGHTS, SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY (18 DECEMBER 2008) "The Holy See continues to advocate that every sign of unjust discrimination towards homosexual persons should be avoided and urges States to do away with criminal penalties against them."
Adrestia Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309633780' post='2262177'] Could I ask you to ask your gay friends if they think that the Catholic church's teachings as well as other Christian based churches teachings with regards to homosexuality contributes to some of the discrimination against gays that goes on in society? Also ask them how significant they think the teachings might be with regards to this discrimination. I know the church isn't asking people to behave badly towards people, but given the way human nature is, people often read things into what they are taught. [/quote] For me they said no and laughed. For others they said that the charitable Christians far outnumber those who discriminate. In the cases of discrimination, they said that the reaction of the charitable others was stronger than they expected.
CatherineM Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 Again, I don't care how many documents you cite that says Catholics shouldn't discriminate against those with SSA, if we have different definitions as to what discrimination is. I completely agree with the Church on how we are to treat those with SSA. If you believe that not allowing gay couples to marry is discriminating against them, then we have to disagree. The Church doesn't consider that discrimination. It is simply recognizing that the word marriage means one man and one woman. Should we arrest those who engage in consensual gay sex? Of course not. that would be discrimination because we don't arrest people who commit adultery, or people who have sex before marriage either. I'm sure there are some people who believe we should, but that is not what the Church teaches.
Lumiere Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309653823' post='2262346'] Again, I don't care how many documents you cite that says Catholics shouldn't discriminate against those with SSA, if we have different definitions as to what discrimination is. I completely agree with the Church on how we are to treat those with SSA. If you believe that not allowing gay couples to marry is discriminating against them, then we have to disagree. The Church doesn't consider that discrimination. It is simply recognizing that the word marriage means one man and one woman. Should we arrest those who engage in consensual gay sex? Of course not. that would be discrimination because we don't arrest people who commit adultery, or people who have sex before marriage either. I'm sure there are some people who believe we should, but that is not what the Church teaches. [/quote] Those are not my definitions. Those are Church documents. I would probably word things differently. What I oppose is this attitude displayed by a "Church Militant", "Because the real "filth" is in the "gay agenda" which is seeking more than just "housing" and "job" rights, but acceptance of homosexual activity, and if you believe that such behavior is immoral or disgusting, you are labeled a bigot. So before you challenge us, why don't YOU challenge the militant gays to not flaunt immoral and disgusting behavior to the decent public? You might find that if they weren't so "in your face" about homosexual activity, the Church Militants (and the rest of decent society) might not feel so threatened." And this attitude displayed by another "Church Militant", "I don't know that I am against all discrimination. If you own some apartments and don't want two men or two women who are openly gay living there I think that is okay. If someone flaunts their homosexuality at a company that you own or in the interview I think there is some room to not hire or remove them." Those attitudes are not in line with the above quotes, they are full of hatred. You can't even acknowledge homosexuality as a fact and have to keep refering to it as "SSA". If I was looking for a spiritual home, I certainly wouldn't look for one where the "Church Militants" display those kinds of sttitudes.
Ice_nine Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309646989' post='2262297'] I know they haven't because I have read the threads. [/quote] Oh really? You read ALL the threads. Even those that are years old that talk about the same subject with the same people? Five recent threads is not a comprehensive look at posters who have been here for years. That's my point. How do you know Catherine or Norseman hasn't called out anyone in the past? You don't, unless you've read every past thread and have access to their private messaging. [quote]"As Catholics, we must oppose the hatred and rejection of homosexual persons that exists in our society. We do not want them to be the object of discrimination or violence." [/quote] I'll refer you to Catherine's last post. If we can't agree on what discrimination is then that's the issue we're gonna have to tackle first. I think the word "discrimination" has gotten a bad rep because it conjures up images of "whites only" water fountains and stuff, but in some cases we must discriminate. When an army drops into a village to get some tyrants I prefer they discriminate when pulling the trigger instead of indiscriminately killing people, civilians and infantry alike. I would prefer that ride attendants discriminate against people who are too short or too tall to ride a rolly coasty so no one flies out of their seat or loses their head. I'd prefer the DMV discriminate between people who can see, and people who cannot. Yes discrimination can easily be unjust, but that doesn't mean it is 100% of the time.
Debra Little Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309627846' post='2262152'] And just WHEN did I say THAT? And by that logic, do you still beat your wife? [/quote] Ha! Love it!
CatherineM Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 I use the term SSA because that is what the Church has told us to use. People, gay or straight, shouldn't be addressed by a label, especially a label based entirely on an unnatural sexual attraction.
Debra Little Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309631261' post='2262166'] My response was not in regard to the discrimination part, but to the disordered part. Some people on this thread cannot see the disordered and sinful part of this behavior. That is the basis, the [i]sine qua non[/i], of any discussion. Until people can understand that, there can be no meaningful discussion on [u]anyhing[/u] related to homosexuality. [/quote] It is only disordered for a straight person to have gay sex. It's natural for us. There is no connection with the opposite sex for gays, emotional and otherwise. We have to be allowed to be true to ourselves in the same way straight people are. I think you have absolutely no idea about the kind of upheaval that comes into a person's life when they come out. Furthermore it cannot be a choice. Who in their right mind would choose a life style that means they will be harassed, rejected and/or killed? No one! The cross in being gay is these things and not at all what a lot of you think it is.
Debra Little Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309632654' post='2262173'] @Catherine M and @Norseman82 then why don't you challenge other "Church Militants" who advocate that homosexuals lose their rights outside the Church? Why do you let them go on and on in that kind of filth, not just in this thread but in all the other "Gay Issue" threads on this forum? If I trully believed in the Roman Catholic Church I would be mortally offended that someone would use the Church's religious stand to justify bigotry outside of the Church. I would consider that an offence against the Church. [/quote] And an offense against God who made us all.
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309660983' post='2262396'] It is only disordered for a straight person to have gay sex. It's natural for us. There is no connection with the opposite sex for gays, emotional and otherwise. We have to be allowed to be true to ourselves in the same way straight people are. [/quote] You can keep repeating this until you're blue in the face, but until you can provide an argument as to how SSA is not disordered... there is little more we can say in this thread.
Debra Little Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1309638566' post='2262221'] Exactly. Thanks Catherine. [/quote] Catherine. thanks so much.!
Debra Little Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 A lot of you people are so narrow minded and ignorant! I don't have to provide quotes or defend myself to anyone. I don't care if you accept me or not. Your opinions don't matter one whit to me. I have been trying to educate you narrow minded ones on the truth. But you really don't want to learn. You want to stay stuck in your ignorance!
Papist Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) [font="Arial"][size=3]It is against the law for me to marry my sister. Is that discrimination? It is against the law for me to marry two women. Is that discrimination? I am sexually attracted to 5 year old boys. I believe God made me with this attraction. You are a hater and a bigot[not to mention narrow minded and ignorant][/size][/font][font="Arial"][size=3] if you tell me my sexual attraction to 5 year old boys is disordered.[/size][/font] Edited July 3, 2011 by Papist
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309661565' post='2262409'] A lot of you people are so narrow minded and ignorant! I don't have to provide quotes or defend myself to anyone. I don't care if you accept me or not. Your opinions don't matter one whit to me. I have been trying to educate you narrow minded ones on the truth. But you really don't want to learn. You want to stay stuck in your ignorance! [/quote] Debra, sister in Christ... we accept you. We love you. I mean this most sincerely. If you would like to educate us to the truth as you see it, then please, please do. Provide an argument as to why/how SSA is not inherently disordered. But if you choose not to provide an argument, there is little more we can say. We have given arguments. We have provided Church teaching. No one has said anything against you as a person. No one doubts the struggles you've had in your life. In fact, I find admirable that you remain celibate, despite your difficulties with what the Church teaches.
CatherineM Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 The only truth I know is that which has come to me from God through his Church. Someone calling me narrow minded on a website can't change what is true, so it certainly isn't going to change how I may view an issue that has been well decided for centuries.
Adrestia Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1309661862' post='2262413'] It is against the law for me to marry my sister. Is that discrimination? It is against the law for me to marry two women. Is that discrimination? I am sexually attracted to 5 year old boys. I believe God made me with this attraction. You are a hater and a bigot [not to mention narrow minded and ignorant] if you tell me my sexual attraction to 5 year old boys is disordered. [/quote] It has been my experience that extreme examples used to illustrate a point are often interpreted as insults. Not all homosexual people are offended by the Church's teachings. It's possible to disagree without taking offense. Edited July 3, 2011 by tgoldson
dominicansoul Posted July 3, 2011 Posted July 3, 2011 the title of this thread is not correct ... the Catholic Church does not deny anyone anything, just as God does not deny anyone anything ... we humans deny ourselves by the poor choices we make, and the way we decide we are gonna live contrary to God's laws ...
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