havok579257 Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310138465' post='2264448'] You're creating a strawman. My opinion on the subject is clear: If someone is a Catholic, they should be able to have a Catholic funeral. If they and their family desire one. There's no implication that you approve their lifestyle. You acknowledge that they are a child of God who deserves to be honored and respected, in life as in death. [/quote] when is someone considered catholic then? anyone baptized catholic? if someone is baptized as an infant as a catholic and never goes to church again and dies and their family requests a catholic funeral, should they get one? if someone falls away from the church and wants nothing to do with it but are never formally excommunicated or remove themselfs as a member and they die and their family want them to have a catholic funeral, should they get one? should someone who was baptized catholic but hates the church and speaks out against it, upon their death get a catholic funeral if their family wants it?
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1310139156' post='2264453'] I agree with this too, meaning that those who have declared themselves, through word or action, to be no longer Catholic, shouldn't receive Catholic funerals or be buried in Catholic cemeteries. [/quote] Well then I guess we disagree.
Vincent Vega Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310139239' post='2264457'] Well then I guess we disagree. [/quote] Do you think George Carlin deserved a Catholic funeral? Joseph Goebbels? Henry VIII?
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1310139544' post='2264460'] Do you think George Carlin deserved a Catholic funeral? Joseph Goebbels? Henry VIII? [/quote] I suppose I don't see a "Catholic funeral" as a reward, really. If you're Catholic, and your family wants to give you a Catholic funeral, I really don't see what the big deal is. Again, this goes back to a fundamental disagreement we are all having: I think a funeral is more for the families and friends. I also think it's particularly dumb to draw a link between your every-day homosexual and Joseph Goebbels and Henry VII.
Vincent Vega Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310142444' post='2264488'] I also think it's particularly dumb to draw a link between your every-day homosexual and Joseph Goebbels and Henry VII. [/quote] Well that begs the question of whether you believe even one single unrepented mortal sin is enough to send an individual to hell.
Nihil Obstat Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1310113080' post='2264365'] so would you argue in favour of a single unmarried mother not getting a catholic burial? [/quote] Not necessarily. Her sin isn't a persistent one. It was a one time thing that's over and done with. A man living in a sexual relationship with another man is ongoing. His sin is re-affirmed every day.
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1310142613' post='2264490'] Well that begs the question of whether you believe even one single unrepented mortal sin is enough to send an individual to hell. [/quote] I believe in God's love and I don't know that I can make any judgments about the rest.
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1310139208' post='2264455'] when is someone considered catholic then? anyone baptized catholic? if someone is baptized as an infant as a catholic and never goes to church again and dies and their family requests a catholic funeral, should they get one? if someone falls away from the church and wants nothing to do with it but are never formally excommunicated or remove themselfs as a member and they die and their family want them to have a catholic funeral, should they get one? should someone who was baptized catholic but hates the church and speaks out against it, upon their death get a catholic funeral if their family wants it? [/quote] This is one of your little tactics, isn't it? Creating a post with lots of "what ifs" and rhetorical questions. Seeing as how you're very particular about who answers your questions and when those answers occur, I'll answer succinctly: if the family of a person who was baptized Catholic desires a Catholic funeral for that person, one should be granted. We do not know a person's heart, and we cannot know that a conversion of that heart did or didn't happen. Since we afford suicide victims the benefit of the doubt, I believe we should do the same for homosexuals.
havok579257 Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310143448' post='2264497'] This is one of your little tactics, isn't it? Creating a post with lots of "what ifs" and rhetorical questions. Seeing as how you're very particular about who answers your questions and when those answers occur, I'll answer succinctly: if the family of a person who was baptized Catholic desires a Catholic funeral for that person, one should be granted. We do not know a person's heart, and we cannot know that a conversion of that heart did or didn't happen. Since we afford suicide victims the benefit of the doubt, I believe we should do the same for homosexuals. [/quote] well from what i have read Hitler was baptized catholic(no one would consider him catholic anymore though), so he should have been allowed a catholic funeral if his family requested it according to your logic? Your logic continues to fall apart because there are so many people who were baptized catholic yet are no longer catholic or have done many evils against the catholic church and yet according to you, no big deal, let's give them a catholic funeral. who cares what scandel it would give to the entire world if the catholic church gave hitler a catholic funeral, that doesn't matter. what matters is if it will make his family happy, right?
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1310144117' post='2264501'] well from what i have read Hitler was baptized catholic(no one would consider him catholic anymore though), so he should have been allowed a catholic funeral if his family requested it according to your logic? Your logic continues to fall apart because there are so many people who were baptized catholic yet are no longer catholic or have done many evils against the catholic church and yet according to you, no big deal, let's give them a catholic funeral. who cares what scandel it would give to the entire world if the catholic church gave hitler a catholic funeral, that doesn't matter. what matters is if it will make his family happy, right? [/quote] YOUR logic falls apart every time you (or anyone else) draws a relationship between a homosexual and Hitler or Goebbels.
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310144373' post='2264505'] YOUR logic falls apart every time you (or anyone else) draws a relationship between a homosexual and Hitler or Goebbels. [/quote] "Oh no! The Catholic Church has to come out with a strong stance against Brawny paper towels because Hitler used them, and continuing to use them would scandalize the faithful, implying that we support the murder of millions and millions of people!" Edited July 8, 2011 by kujo
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 Understand the ridiculousness of your argument here, guys. In essence, you're playing fill-in the blank with the same cheat-sheet used by PR agents around the world: "<Insert client's name> must to take a strong stance in favor/against <insert social issue> because <insert nefarious historical figure> support[ed/s] it. Failing to do so would scandalize the faithful and the public at-large because it would imply that we support <insert description dastardly-deed committed by the aforementioned person>." On Phatmass, the historical figure is typically Hitler, Obama or Margaret Sanger.
CatherineM Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 I think when I die I should ask for a full Masonic funeral. My grandfather was one. I don't believe in Masonic ideals. Never attended a meeting. Have publicly denounced them, and never followed their rules. But, I understand they have a pretty cool looking facility, and it would make a great backdrop for my funeral pictures. I hear they put out a nice funeral dinner spread too. It doesn't matter that I'm a Catholic female, it would be discrimination for them to turn my funeral down.
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1310146151' post='2264514'] I think when I die I should ask for a full Masonic funeral. My grandfather was one. I don't believe in Masonic ideals. Never attended a meeting. Have publicly denounced them, and never followed their rules. But, I understand they have a pretty cool looking facility, and it would make a great backdrop for my funeral pictures. I hear they put out a nice funeral dinner spread too. It doesn't matter that I'm a Catholic female, it would be discrimination for them to turn my funeral down. [/quote] Catherine, Your superb wit and sarcasm aside, you (and others) and myself continue to have a fantastically different POV on this subject. We could probably go back and forth for a few dozen more pages on it. But it seems like the topic has run its course, with nothing fruitful being discussed. Maybe it's time to close the thread?
stevil Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) [quote] Local businessman and devout Catholic John Sanfilippo died last week after struggling with emphysema. Friends said Sanfilippo planned for the funeral mass to be held at Our Lady of the Rosary Catholic Church in Little Italy, where Sanfilippo had attended for decades. Friends said he even left the church a large sum of money in his will.[/quote] This seems to me to be a qualifier for this guy's link with the Church, I am guessing this relatinship with the Church wasn't only one way. kujo, although you don't need my permission, please feel free to answer questions asked of me on this public forum. I'm pretty much in agreement with most things you have been saying, even though you are a Catholic and I am an Atheist, we are probably both humanists as well. BTW I live in a completely different timezone to most here. Hard to have a two-way conversation, if you are expecting immediate responses. And totally yes, the topic of this thread is about the church's response to a gay man. But also, I thought I articulated well enough that I am concerned with the consequences, when some practitioners take on board the teaching and take undesirable actions on non Catholics within our society. So far in this forum I have also argued against all male priesthood, the right to carry guns, Atheism being Nihlistic, if anyone is keeping track. Those were threads too. I haven't got around to arguing all of my opinions just yet Edited July 8, 2011 by stevil
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1310150801' post='2264557'] kujo, although you don't need my permission, please feel free to answer questions asked of me on this public forum. I'm pretty much in agreement with most things you have been saying, even though you are a Catholic and I am an Atheist, we are probably both humanists as well. BTW I live in a completely different timezone to most here. Hard to have a two-way conversation, if you are expecting immediate responses. [/quote] Me: Havok:
havok579257 Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310144373' post='2264505'] YOUR logic falls apart every time you (or anyone else) draws a relationship between a homosexual and Hitler or Goebbels. [/quote] i never compared hitler and homosexuals, but noce try. your the one who made the corralation. you, not i made the comparison. i was responding to what you said in the previous post that dealt with EVERY person who was baptized catholic. you said that you think anyone who was baptized catholic, if their family wants, should be give a catholic funeral. i point out how your arguement doesn't work, unless your ok with hitler getting a catholic funeral and instead try to claim i made the comparison between hitler and homosexuals. see, this is when you know someone has no leg to stand on. they refuse to answer your questions and instead twist your words just so they can claim something false and avoid the question. if someone is sure of their position and sure they are right they will have no fear answering your questions and proving you wrong. if someone knows their position is wrong, they will do whatever they can to avoid the question. so whenever your done, i would still like an answer. you said any person baptized a catholic, if their family wishes, should be given a catholic funeral. so, should hitler have been given a catholic funeral if his family had wanted him to have a catholic funeral?
havok579257 Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1310150931' post='2264560'] Me: Havok: [/quote] this picture above is exactly right. i beat my head against a wall try to understand how someone can say they are catholic but go against so many of the catholic church teaches and instead be more in line with the athiest montra. how someone who says they are catholic would rather tout the athiest company line then the catholic church line considering they call themself catholic. i beat my head against the wall because i actually feel bad about the situation your in and it seems the more and more you post on here the farther away you get from catholic teaching. so yes, the picture of me beating my head against the wall is accurate. i will pray for you tonight. Edited July 8, 2011 by havok579257
kujo Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 I think you misunderstood those pictures. I was dancing while you banged your head against the wall. You doing that MAKES me dance, while me dancing MAKES you bang your head against the wall. I am not an atheist but I don't see that as a dirty word either. You do. I think people all have their own opinions, and most come to them honestly and with a desire for truth. Doesn't make their opinions right, but it should make it easier to see the humanity behind those opinions. And Havok, you ARE implying that there is a relationship with gays and Hitler; you're saying that allowing a gay person to have a Catholic funeral is analogous to giving Hitler one! It's called analogical reasoning. Look it up. I refuse to answer your ludicrous question because it is not the slightest bit germane to this conversation. You can call it a cop out, but it's my decision to make. Thanks for the prayers, though. Unlike an atheist, I do believe in God and I know that He hears our prayers, regardless of the passive aggressive intentione behind them.
stevil Posted July 8, 2011 Posted July 8, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1310152424' post='2264577'] this picture above is exactly right. i beat my head against a wall try to understand how someone can say they are catholic but go against so many of the catholic church teaches and instead be more in line with the athiest montra. how someone who says they are catholic would rather tout the athiest company line then the catholic church line considering they call themself catholic. i beat my head against the wall because i actually feel bad about the situation your in and it seems the more and more you post on here the farther away you get from catholic teaching. so yes, the picture of me beating my head against the wall is accurate. i will pray for you tonight. [/quote] Please forgive me kujo, I feel compelled to answer this post which is so obviously directed at you LOL With kujo I don't see a battle line drawn between Catholics and Atheists, there is no war to fight. Just because I say something that does not mean this opinion is the Atheistic stance, I have not claimed it on behalf of all Atheists and I don't think that this should drive an instant and immediate response of disapproval from Catholics with a motive to disown all things Atheistic including opinions. If you looked at the totallity of things you would find that we are much more alike than you probably think. With regards to being aligned with the Catholic church, I am unqualified to know who is more aligned, you or kujo. It is not clear to me. Kujo seems to be compassionate and understanding and seems to be tolerant of others, I would think these good traits might be aligned with the Church.
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