Catholic Church Denies Funeral For Local Gay Man...maybe

[Seven77]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309572721' post='2261898']<br>Of course.&nbsp;&nbsp;I also know who I am.&nbsp;&nbsp;Look this is getting really old.<br>Can we end this please.&nbsp;&nbsp;It's getting pretty boring.<br>[/quote]<br><br>

You are a child of God and a daughter of the Church... that's who you are. Frankly, you are boring when you define yourself solely by your sexual orientation.

If you believe the Authority of the Church why contradict it? Please help me understand.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309571838' post='2261881']
i am accountable only to God.
[/quote]

If you murder someone the justice system in your country may disagree. You can claim to be accountable only to God before a judge, but that won't stop him from throwing you in jail. You can scream from the top of your lungs in jail the rest of your life that you are accountable only to God, but you are still in jail.

http://couragerc.net/

[Santa Cruz]

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000164 EndHTML:0000010136 StartFragment:0000002344 EndFragment:0000010100 SourceURL:file://localhost/Users/meg/Desktop/ same-sex.doc [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309472045' post='2261212']
I apologize for being so touchy. But I don't get the impression from some here that we who are gay

are loved and respected but pitied or looked down upon. I don't want to be pitied. I do not feel

sorry for myself. We are too love others, no matter who they are. This isn't always easy but

I ask God to help me do it.

[/quote]



[quote name='cappie' timestamp='1309478329' post='2261299']


All liturgical actions are not private but are celebrations of the Church. Can. 837 §1 Liturgical actions are not private but are celebrations of the Church itself as the 'sacrament of unity', that is, the holy people united and ordered under the Bishops. Accordingly, they concern the whole body of the Church, making it known and influencing it. They affect individual members of the Church in ways that vary according to orders, role and actual participation. When therefore the law decrees that certain persons are to be denied a Church funeral, its reluctant decision is directed solely at those who by their conduct in life, have irrevocably and deliberately chosen to secede from the unity and community of the Church. It must therefore be clearly understood that the denial of a Church funeral is never a penal measure in respect of a person's conduct during life.

[/quote]


[quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309529895' post='2261538']
I have been in your position with this bunch before. I just want to reaffirm that yes it feels like you are being attacked because you are. They can try to hide that attack in nice words, but when it comes down to it, it hurts. I am with you.

[/quote]


[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1309532481' post='2261563']
I was born heterosexual. Our lives don't have to be dominated by our sexual desires. I have a desire to have sex with women. I had a desire to have sex with women before I was married. I have a desire to have sex with women other than my wife. I have a desire to masturbate. God made me that way. Should I act out on all these desires, or promote them as being acceptable? It's not all about homosexuality. It's about being virtuous in the face of temptation.

[/quote]


Wow! This is a beautiful discussion. Thank you Debra Little, Lumiere, Cappie, dust and all for what you have shared. For years I have been trying to understand same sex attraction after a childhood female friend fell in love with me. Our relationship has been damaged as a result of her attraction to me. But regardless, I deeply care for her. Growing up she always expressed attraction toward men. In college she began to 'experiment' with her sexuality and she said was open to sexual relations with men and women. She then attempted to have intimacy with me. I removed myself from the situation and had to step away from the friendship because of her sexual attraction to me. A few years ago I crossed paths with her and we attempted to embark upon a friendship but because I am a devout, practicing Catholic who obeys the Magisterium, she said she could not be my friend. What grief this has caused me. I turn to Christ with my hurt. I miss my friend from childhood! I realize though that Jesus suffers so much more because my friend refuses Him and His Church. He feels my pain most intimately! But I still do not understand? I have been reading Church documents and prayerfully reflecting for years and it does not take away the pain that I feel over the damaged relationship.

Thanks be to God I do not suffer from same-sex attraction. I do recognize beauty in females but I do not have a sexual attraction toward persons of my same-sex.. Same-sex attraction is something I am trying to understand in relation to Christ, His Church and the Magisterium. I have read Church documents and it all is clear to me. But on a personal, emotional level, I miss my friend and I want to be in communion with her in Christ. I desire that she love and accept Christ but she utterly rejects Him, Christianity and His Church.

The quotes pasted above have been so very enlightening for me. Thank you! Perhaps too I should mention that I feel a distinct calling to Religious Life and have been preparing my heart for Christ since 1994. Thus, it is great to hear dUSt share on marriage and temptations faced.

As an added note, Blessed John Paul II's "Theology of the Body" has been such a blessing for me, helping to order my life. Christopher West, from the "Theology of the Body Institute" has done a fabulous job at presenting on TOB. His talks "Naked Without Shame" are THE BEST. He speaks to what dUSt has humbly shared with us.

Thank you Cappie for pointing out to us the mercy of Christ and His Church on these matters. How appropriate for today's feast of the Sacred Heart, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice."


Finally, I want to humbly reiterate this phrase from Seven77,

[quote name='Seven77' timestamp='1309573759' post='2261912']
<br><br>
Please help me understand.
[/quote]

[CatherineM]

I have lots of disorders. Some by birth, some by incidents. God gives us all crosses to bear. Some are heavier than others. SSA is a very heavy one.

[stevil]

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309570506' post='2261868']
lots of people (even non-Catholics) misinterpret teachings and act in a manner that is uncharitable. Do you run around on Presbyterian forums to accuse them? What about Muslims? Jews? Mormons?
[/quote]
I don't feel that I am running around this forum accusing people of wrong doing.
I am here to learn a bit about Catholic people, how they behave and what they believe, so that I can understand the Catholics within my society better. One approach would be to simply lurk and observe, but I feel with participation I will learn a lot more. I am not trying to pick out my points of differnce with this community so that I can cause arguments and chaos.
I will move on at some point and will probably join a hindi site if I can find an English one, because I have some close friends that are hindi and I often work with Indians. i am just really trying to understand how better to get on with the mixed community within which I live.

[Santa Cruz]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309578569' post='2261965']
I don't feel that I am running around this forum accusing people of wrong doing.
I am here to learn a bit about Catholic people, how they behave and what they believe, so that I can understand the Catholics within my society better. One approach would be to simply lurk and observe, but I feel with participation I will learn a lot more. I am not trying to pick out my points of differnce with this community so that I can cause arguments and chaos.
I will move on at some point and will probably join a hindi site if I can find an English one, because I have some close friends that are hindi and I often work with Indians. i am just really trying to understand how better to get on with the mixed community within which I live.
[/quote]

I am glad you are here. Thank you and I hope you stay awhile.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Santa Cruz' timestamp='1309578801' post='2261966']
I am glad you are here. Thank you and I hope you stay awhile.
[/quote]

Concurred.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309561483' post='2261776']
I apologize if it sounded as though I was trying to perpetuate the unfortunate thought that "mental illness" is bad or embarrassing. I was just explaining the technical use of the word 'disorder' in Catholic theology.
[/quote]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that you did. In my flurry of words I forgot to mention that . It's just been a recurring theme I've noticed among the latest deluge of homosexual threads. Most people, including gay people, seem utterly shocked and offended if you tell them they have a mental disorder, and it's just perplexing to me.

I thought it might be worthwhile examining the stigma of mental disorders in light of all the homosexual discussion. I like to attempt to bring a new angle to something that's been talked about ad nauseum.

But no worries I wasn't offended

[quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309571656' post='2261878']
i don't feel resentful and bitter at all. angry either. i love all my phatmass brothers and sisters. we simply
disagree and we all have the right to do that. you have your beliefs and i have mine.
[/quote]

Forgive me. You [i]seemed[/i] dismissive and aggravated, but often times meaning is lost when using the internet to communicate.

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309576297' post='2261943']
I have lots of disorders. Some by birth, some by incidents. God gives us all crosses to bear. Some are heavier than others. SSA is a very heavy one.
[/quote]

qft

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1309579196' post='2261971']
I certainly didn't mean to imply that you did. In my flurry of words I forgot to mention that . It's just been a recurring theme I've noticed among the latest deluge of homosexual threads. Most people, including gay people, seem utterly shocked and offended if you tell them they have a mental disorder, and it's just perplexing to me.

I thought it might be worthwhile examining the stigma of mental disorders in light of all the homosexual discussion. I like to attempt to bring a new angle to something that's been talked about ad nauseum.

But no worries I wasn't offended

[/quote]

Gotchya

You've definitely got a good point, though. "Mental disorders" are extremely stigmatized. My brother struggles with some mental health issues (made worse by his time in Afghanistan and Iraq), but struggles with pride, so he often doesn't receive the help he needs.

I haven't been able to keep up on the research regarding whether or not SSA is more hormonal (and genetic) or more of an issue regarding mental health and life experience. If it's more the latter... well, heck, even if it is also the former, SSA would seem to be a medical disorder of some sort. Whether it's a hormonal mix-up or a psychological thing...

I do think, however, that the Catechism and Documents are using 'disorder' in a more theological sense. It's only been recently that we've [i]really[/i] explored medical mental or psychological disorders. The Church is slow to make comments on these sorts of things, because science changes its mind fairly often and it takes quite a bit of time before something is officially accepted!

[Lumiere]

I'll tell you why this is important. In another thread on a "Gay issue" a "Church Militant",[b] thessalonian[/b], felt free to say, "I don't know that I am against all discrimination. If you own some apartments and don't want two men or two women who are openly gay living there I think that is okay. If someone flaunts their homosexuality at a company that you own or in the interview I think there is some room to not hire or remove them." This "Church Militant" feels free to spread this kind of filth because he feels he is backed up by the Church. Is he backed up by the Church or are all you other "Church Militants" going to challenge people like this? [b]franciscanheart[/b] stepped up to the plate, will you?

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309579908' post='2261988']
Gotchya

You've definitely got a good point, though. "Mental disorders" are extremely stigmatized. My brother struggles with some mental health issues (made worse by his time in Afghanistan and Iraq), but struggles with pride, so he often doesn't receive the help he needs.

I haven't been able to keep up on the research regarding whether or not SSA is more hormonal (and genetic) or more of an issue regarding mental health and life experience. If it's more the latter... well, heck, even if it is also the former, SSA would seem to be a medical disorder of some sort. Whether it's a hormonal mix-up or a psychological thing...

I do think, however, that the Catechism and Documents are using 'disorder' in a more theological sense. It's only been recently that we've [i]really[/i] explored medical mental or psychological disorders. The Church is slow to make comments on these sorts of things, because science changes its mind fairly often and it takes quite a bit of time before something is officially accepted!
[/quote]

I agree. Theological language, scientific language, and medical language all have their own jargon to unpack. An arduous task indeed, especially when they intersect.

I would just like to get to a point that if you tell someone that part of their thinking is disordered, be it psychological or theological, that people don't immediately become offended because the offense is something that I think stems from the connotations of the word "disorder" as it is commonly understood.

It's merely a part of a complex topic but I think it would solve some of the bad feelings that inhibit any real discussion.


[b]
[/b]and [b]Luminere[/b], sometimes people don't speak out against ridiculous comments because they have been down that road before and it's a long road that leads to nowhere. Let people's own posts speak for themselves. They could have a person on ignore, or maybe they have told them before that they should tone down the insensitivity, but to no avail. I'm pretty sure when I first joined the forum I harassed Soc about how he dealt with homosexuality, o how naive of me. In the end I don't think he got where I was coming from and he most likely saw me as some punk on the internet spittin' the same old same old at him. But I still find things to respect about the people I disagree with, and move on.

I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings. If you feel sad, you're sad and if you feel hurt, you're hurt. Just try to deal with people on an individual basis. You can't hold a group of people responsible for the insensitive remarks of a few people.

Edited July 2, 2011 by Ice_nine

[vee]

John 14: 15

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

[Adrestia]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309566592' post='2261842']
This is the horrid truth to what is happening. The Catholic church is teaching hundreds of millions of people (most who have choosen to accept church teaching above their own individual understandings) all around the world to look at homosexuals as people who are living in sin, who are willingly and repeatedly performing sin, that these people are sick and in need of a cure.
Many people take it upon themselves to constantly remind the "offenders" of their sins, to castracise them and ensure that laws do not grant these people the basic human rights that others have (e.g. marriage, it was once even illegal to be homosexual).
I have seen religious people take this teaching to the extreme, they will not listen to music performed by gay artists, they disown their gay children. This is a horrific result of this teaching.
[/quote]
This sounded like an attack to me. If your intent is to learn, I'm not sure what purpose this post serves. Can you help me understand?

[stevil]

[quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309584204' post='2262008']
This sounded like an attack to me. If your intent is to learn, I'm not sure what purpose this post serves. Can you help me understand?
[/quote]
My main purpose is to understand, however I do have views and opinions on things.During natural discussion, I do feel compelled to express my opinions, especially on things I feel strongly about. Is it best for me to hold onto my perceptions or get them out in the open for discussion with those I have the perception on. I certainly feel it is better than speaking with an unpleasant disposition on an Atheist forum where we all just feed off each other and are not giving the target the opportunity to clarify.
At no point in my post did I feel that I targeted the Church or an individual, I was discussing an idea which was related to the topic of discussion. I've stated what I think to be the facts and also some personal observations that I have made. I have also provided you with an emotion on how I felt with regards to the situation.
I'm sorry that you felt attacked, I didn't mean to attack.

[Lumiere]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1309582602' post='2262000']

[b]
[/b]and [b]Luminere[/b], sometimes people don't speak out against ridiculous comments because they have been down that road before and it's a long road that leads to nowhere. Let people's own posts speak for themselves. They could have a person on ignore, or maybe they have told them before that they should tone down the insensitivity, but to no avail. I'm pretty sure when I first joined the forum I harassed Soc about how he dealt with homosexuality, o how naive of me. In the end I don't think he got where I was coming from and he most likely saw me as some punk on the internet spittin' the same old same old at him. But I still find things to respect about the people I disagree with, and move on.

I'm not trying to invalidate your feelings. If you feel sad, you're sad and if you feel hurt, you're hurt. Just try to deal with people on an individual basis. You can't hold a group of people responsible for the insensitive remarks of a few people.
[/quote]

NO! This person feels that because the Church considers homosexuality "disordered behaviour" that he can carry that into the workplace and deny homosexuals a job, that he can deny them a place to live. He and people like him feel free to make statements like that on this forum because no one challenges them on it. Do you support his position? Does the Church back him up? If no "Church Militants" oppose him then what are the rest of us supposed to think, but that you support him.