stevil Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309652203' post='2262340'] For me they said no and laughed. For others they said that the charitable Christians far outnumber those who discriminate. In the cases of discrimination, they said that the reaction of the charitable others was stronger than they expected. [/quote] Thanks for asking your friends, I am surprised by their second answer, not the first one as I am presuming you are a pretty decent person. Sorry if my next statement annoys you or misrepresents you, I am not doing this intentionally but please put me in my place if I have done so. I assume your friends aren't aware that the following are teachings of the Catholic church and I assume that you agree with these: Homosexual sex is a sin Homosexual attraction is a disorder Homosexual sex is against nature Homosexuals should either abstain from sex or become heterosexuals Homosexuals should pray for forgiveness regarding their homosexual sex acts Homosexuals should not be able to marry each other Homosexuals should not be able to adopt children Homosexuals should not be school teachers Hotel owners should have the right to turn away homosexual customers Homosexuals should not be given a burial service by the church.
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309763031' post='2262907'] Homosexual sex is a sin. [b]Yes. Objectively, the act of homosexual is grave matter. When it is performed with full knowledge and full consent, it is, for the individual(s) performing the act, gravely sinful.[/b] Homosexual attraction is a disorder. [b]Perhaps... but that's for psychology to determine. What we [i]can[/i] say, however, is the homosexual attraction is disordered. The distinction is important.[/b] Homosexual sex is against nature. [b]Yes.[/b] Homosexuals should either abstain from sex or become heterosexuals. [b]Abstain from sex; yes, just as anyone who is not married is to abstain from sex. Become heterosexuals? There is some research that suggests this is, perhaps, possible... that sexual attraction, rather than being strict and unmoving, is more of continuum... it can possibly shift somewhat... But, again, this is a question for psychologists.[/b] Homosexuals should pray for forgiveness regarding their homosexual sex acts. [b]Just the same as anyone who has fallen short of the glory of God ought to pray for forgiveness.[/b] Homosexuals should not be able to marry each other.[b]Correct.[/b] Homosexuals should not be able to adopt children. [b]Correct.[/b] Homosexuals should not be school teachers. [b]'Practicing' homosexuals can't teach at Catholic schools. That's about as far as I'll go with it, though.[/b] Hotel owners should have the right to turn away homosexual customers. [b]Do hotel owners have the right to turn away heterosexual couples, who are not married? I don't think so. Neither do they have the right to turn away homosexual customers.[/b] Homosexuals should not be given a burial service by the church. [b]Any person who has publicly renounced the Catholic Church through their persistent, unrepented sin has himself/herself renounced a funeral Mass or Christian burial by the Church.[/b] [/quote] My responses are in bold.
CatherineM Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 I see a big difference between turning away a hotel guest, and a bed and breakfast guest. One is a public facility, and the other is often someone's home.
Papist Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309691687' post='2262563'] What the Church does inside the Church is one thing, but when [b]that spreads into prejudice and anger in society as a whole,[/b] then it affects me and mine. [/quote] Seriously? Please elaborate.
Brother Adam Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1309767430' post='2262920'] My responses are in bold. [/quote] To clarify one point - Catholic church employees sign a morality clause. So, for instance, if I was a single DRE and moved in with my girlfriend my contract could be terminated. There is nothing illegal about this. Imagine if as a strong orthodox Catholic I applied for a job as the spokesman for a homosexual advocacy group. They would be right to turn me away.
Lil Red Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309794127' post='2262995'] To clarify one point - Catholic church employees sign a morality clause. So, for instance, if I was a single DRE and moved in with my girlfriend my contract could be terminated. There is nothing illegal about this. Imagine if as a strong orthodox Catholic I applied for a job as the spokesman for a homosexual advocacy group. They would be right to turn me away. [/quote] what? you mean like someone working for the USCCB (as head of the CCHD) also working as the treasurer for a pro-abortion candidate running against a pro-life Catholic candidate?
TeresaBenedicta Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1309794127' post='2262995'] To clarify one point - Catholic church employees sign a morality clause. So, for instance, if I was a single DRE and moved in with my girlfriend my contract could be terminated. There is nothing illegal about this. Imagine if as a strong orthodox Catholic I applied for a job as the spokesman for a homosexual advocacy group. They would be right to turn me away. [/quote] Ah, yes, right. I'm pretty sure it goes for any position in the Church. My point wasn't clear- I had meant to say I wouldn't go any further to speculate about public schools. Thanks!
Norseman82 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) It's easy to try to shut down a debate by throwing the term "bigotry" at your opponent. I don't fall for it, though. [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309735888' post='2262788'] I have no problem with the Roman Catholic Church setting rules, policies, principles, etc. for its members. I actually greatly respect people who live by a set of principles. My problem is when people, rightly or wrongly, expect people outside of the Church to live by those same principles and I really resent it when people use Church principles to justify bigotry and hatred. [/quote] By that logic, it is OK for the rest of society to steal and murder, since the Cathoilic Church opposes those things as well, and we wouldn't want people outside the Church subject to those rules, would we? This is not just a disciplinary item, like the Friday lenten regulations. The reason that homosexual sex is intrinsically immoral, not just for Catholics but EVERYONE, is that it goes against the natural law. After all, a plug does not plug into another plug or a socket into another socket; plugs are meant to plug into sockets. It's not rocket science or bigotry; it's just the way it is. (Mods, I hope this analogy isn't too graphic or offensive). Edited July 4, 2011 by Norseman82
Lil Red Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309800428' post='2263045'] After all, a plug does not plug into another plug or a socket into another socket; plugs are meant to plug into sockets. It's not rocket science or bigotry; it's just the way it is. (Mods, I hope this analogy isn't too graphic or offensive).[/quote] nope, but it sure is pretty phunny.
Jesus_lol Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309800428' post='2263045'] This is not just a disciplinary item, like the Friday lenten regulations. The reason that homosexual sex is intrinsically immoral, not just for Catholics but EVERYONE, is that it goes against the natural law. After all, a plug does not plug into another plug or a socket into another socket; plugs are meant to plug into sockets. It's not rocket science or bigotry; it's just the way it is. (Mods, I hope this analogy isn't too graphic or offensive). [/quote] ahh but anyone with a bit of wiring experience can jury rig something up. going north american to euro, etc
Norseman82 Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1309801873' post='2263054'] ahh but anyone with a bit of wiring experience can jury rig something up. going north american to euro, etc [/quote] That doesn't change the basic nature of the plug and socket, though.
Adrestia Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309763031' post='2262907'] Thanks for asking your friends, I am surprised by their second answer, not the first one as I am presuming you are a pretty decent person. Sorry if my next statement annoys you or misrepresents you, I am not doing this intentionally but please put me in my place if I have done so. I assume your friends aren't aware that the following are teachings of the Catholic church and I assume that you agree with these: Homosexual sex is a sin Homosexual attraction is a disorder Homosexual sex is against nature Homosexuals should either abstain from sex or become heterosexuals Homosexuals should pray for forgiveness regarding their homosexual sex acts Homosexuals should not be able to marry each other Homosexuals should not be able to adopt children Homosexuals should not be school teachers Hotel owners should have the right to turn away homosexual customers Homosexuals should not be given a burial service by the church. [/quote] That's just ridiculous. My friends don't fit in your box so you assume they are morons? Here's my assumption: you don't want to admit that you are wrong.
stevil Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309804029' post='2263067'] That's just ridiculous. My friends don't fit in your box so you assume they are morons? Here's my assumption: you don't want to admit that you are wrong. [/quote] So your friends are happy that the Church is teaching people by the hundreds of millions that their sexual activities are a sin, agaist nature and disordered? And that they should not have the right to be married to the person they love or adopt children if they so please and that your church should not bury them even if they are Catholic? I am really struggling with this concept, why would they be happy about this? I presume you would vote to make these things against the law if given the chance, dispite your love for your friends. Do you think they would appreciate you participating in taking away choice from them?
CatherineM Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 Most of my gay clients didn't want to be legally married. Some said that marriage doesn't work for straight people too well, so why would they want to. I think some thought that would mean coming out, and they were heavily in the closet. It was a different time though. Being gay in the 80's meant people were afraid you were contagious.
Adrestia Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309805236' post='2263083'] So your friends are happy that the Church is teaching people by the hundreds of millions that their sexual activities are a sin, agaist nature and disordered? And that they should not have the right to be married to the person they love or adopt children if they so please and that your church should not bury them even if they are Catholic? I am really struggling with this concept, why would they be happy about this? I presume you would vote to make these things against the law if given the chance, dispite your love for your friends. Do you think they would appreciate you participating in taking away choice from them? [/quote] I'm tired of having words put in my mouth. My friends aren't what you think, and they don't want me wasting any more energy or emotion on this.
stevil Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309813981' post='2263111'] I'm tired of having words put in my mouth. My friends aren't what you think, and they don't want me wasting any more energy or emotion on this. [/quote] Sorry if I am putting words in your mouth, I stated that I presume, leaving room for the possibility that I am wrong. If you are for separation of State and Church then that could easily mean that you are not for laws to support Catholic rules onto the whole of society. I think your friends are gay, because that is what you told me they were. I have no other presumptions with regards to who they are.
stevil Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309810260' post='2263104'] Most of my gay clients didn't want to be legally married. [/quote] Are you saying that they are happy that society takes the choice away from them rather than letting them decide their future with regards to marrage?
stevil Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309791757' post='2262974'] I see a big difference between turning away a hotel guest, and a bed and breakfast guest. One is a public facility, and the other is often someone's home. [/quote] If someone chooses to provide a service and make it available to the public then the law sees it as an obligation to make this service available regardless of certain demographics. It seems you are concerned about strangers committing sin in your house. Is the sin of gay sex worse than the sin of using contraceptives or having sex out of wedlock or worshipping a "false" god or not believing in god?
kujo Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309810260' post='2263104'] Most of my gay clients didn't want to be legally married. Some said that marriage doesn't work for straight people too well, so why would they want to. I think some thought that would mean coming out, and they were heavily in the closet. It was a different time though. Being gay in the 80's meant people were afraid you were contagious. [/quote] I've heard you reference your gay clients numerous times whenever discussing anything about homosexuality. Sometimes your comments are insightful and illuminating; sometimes they are just plain silly. I imagine that your clients would like the option to do anything that you, me and most other people can do. I imagine that they'd like to be able to say "No thanks" to marriage, adoption, etc. Even if they don't want it, I imagine that they wouldn't press THEIR opinion of what THEY do or don't want on other gay couples who might feel differently on the subject.
CatherineM Posted July 5, 2011 Posted July 5, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309880302' post='2263263'] I've heard you reference your gay clients numerous times whenever discussing anything about homosexuality. Sometimes your comments are insightful and illuminating; sometimes they are just plain silly. I imagine that your clients would like the option to do anything that you, me and most other people can do. I imagine that they'd like to be able to say "No thanks" to marriage, adoption, etc. Even if they don't want it, I imagine that they wouldn't press THEIR opinion of what THEY do or don't want on other gay couples who might feel differently on the subject. [/quote] As I have said, this was over 20 years ago, in a very red neck environment. I think some were concerned that pushing for marriage rights might cause a potentially violent backlash. The women were mostly older, and doing their estate planning. They had lived their entire lives in the closet. My male clients were mostly young and dying of AIDS. They were also trying to stay hidden. I have no idea what they might say today. Most are dead. I do suspect that the advocacy skills the gay community developed during the worst of the AIDS scare years, have been brought to bear in this gay marriage push.
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