Adrestia Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309591288' post='2262026'] My main purpose is to understand, however I do have views and opinions on things.During natural discussion, I do feel compelled to express my opinions, especially on things I feel strongly about. Is it best for me to hold onto my perceptions or get them out in the open for discussion with those I have the perception on. I certainly feel it is better than speaking with an unpleasant disposition on an Atheist forum where we all just feed off each other and are not giving the target the opportunity to clarify. At no point in my post did I feel that I targeted the Church or an individual, I was discussing an idea which was related to the topic of discussion. I've stated what I think to be the facts and also some personal observations that I have made. I have also provided you with an emotion on how I felt with regards to the situation. I'm sorry that you felt attacked, I didn't mean to attack. [/quote] Okay. You're right that some people behave badly. I disagree that the Church teachings are to blame. There are also countless examples of Catholic people doing good things, but I guess that is beside the point. I am going to ask my gay friends if they ever felt that I acted uncharitable toward them because of a Church teaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309602132' post='2262064'] NO! This person feels that because the Church considers homosexuality "disordered behaviour" that he can carry that into the workplace and deny homosexuals a job, that he can deny them a place to live. He and people like him feel free to make statements like that on this forum because no one challenges them on it. Do you support his position? Does the Church back him up? If no "Church Militants" oppose him then what are the rest of us supposed to think, but that you support him. [/quote] But homosexual behavior IS disordered. The Church says so. God said so. Nature says so. Until you and Debra Little accept this non-negotiable point there can be no meaningful discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 From my perspective, one side is asking for the right to do as they wish with their personal lives, and the other side is saying the same. When I was looking for a husband, there were some deal breakers. I didn't want a smoker. I have known of small businesses that do not hire people who smoke. My first job out of law school required that I be an active member of a church. See this is a problem that I see constantly. Those pushing the homosexual agenda forward want the right to push their views on everyone. We have to yield to their "rights," but we aren't allowed the same latitude. We lose our rights to free association (we are forced to hire, to retain, to service, etc), we lose our rights to free speech (it's considered hate speech), we lose our rights to our religious beliefs (they are called discriminatory). What is the solution? One side will have to lose some of their rights because they are incompatible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309623645' post='2262132'] But homosexual behavior IS disordered. The Church says so. God said so. Nature says so. Until you and Debra Little accept this non-negotiable point there can be no meaningful discussion. [/quote] So then we have another "Church Militant" who says it it alright to deny homosexual people jobs or a place to live? And that position is backed up by the Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309623980' post='2262136'] From my perspective, one side is asking for the right to do as they wish with their personal lives, and the other side is saying the same. When I was looking for a husband, there were some deal breakers. I didn't want a smoker. I have known of small businesses that do not hire people who smoke. My first job out of law school required that I be an active member of a church. See this is a problem that I see constantly. Those pushing the homosexual agenda forward want the right to push their views on everyone. We have to yield to their "rights," but we aren't allowed the same latitude. We lose our rights to free association (we are forced to hire, to retain, to service, etc), we lose our rights to free speech (it's considered hate speech), we lose our rights to our religious beliefs (they are called discriminatory). What is the solution? One side will have to lose some of their rights because they are incompatible. [/quote] Here we have a "Church Scholar" who is advocating that homosexuals lose their rights outside of the church. Does Mother Church herself back this up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) The position of the Roman Catholic Church that homosexuality is "disordered" is something that we could debate for quite some time. The greater danger is that people use that position to hate and discriminate against homosexuals outside of the Church. I would like all you "Church Militants" and "Church Scholars" take note, this is from [url="http://www.cardinalseansblog.org/2011/06/17/"]Cardinal O'Malley's Blog[/url]: "[b]As Catholics, we must oppose the hatred and rejection of homosexual persons that exists in our society. We do not want them to be the object of discrimination or violence.[/b] We believe, however, that God’s law is written in our hearts and that to lead a fully human life we need to embrace His commandments. This is not always easy, we all struggle and sometimes we fail; but a loving and forgiving God is always there to lift us up and help us start over again." (emphasis mine) He continues: "The Church’s position is not based on an animus against people with a homosexual orientation. Each and every member of the Church is called to holiness regardless of their sexual orientation. [b]The Church has often warned against defining people by their sexual orientation in a way that diminishes their humanity.[/b] Each person is a mystery, an irreplaceable treasure, precious in God’s eye. We are God’s creatures and in baptism we are His sons and daughters, brothers and sisters to one another. The extreme individualism of our age is undermining the common good and fractionalizing the community. The Church wishes to call people to unity based on mutual respect and a commitment to the common good. We do not want Catholics who have a homosexual orientation to feel unwelcomed in the Catholic Church. We remind them that they are bound to us by their baptism and are called to live a life of holiness. Many homosexual persons in our Church lead holy lives and make an outstanding contribution to the life of the Church by their service, generosity and the sharing of their spiritual gifts. [b]We must strive to eradicate prejudices against people with a homosexual orientation.[/b] At the same time the Church must minister to all people by challenging them to obey God’s commands, the roadmap for a meaningful human life that allows us to draw near to God and to one another. In the Gospel when the self-righteous Pharisees bring the adulteress to be stoned, Jesus says let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Then to make sure they got the point Jesus wrote their sins on the ground. The stones fell from their hands and they fled. Jesus said: 'Neither do I condemn you', but He added, 'Go and sin no more.'" (emphasis mine) Would any of you "Church Militants" or "Church Scholars" like to disagree? Edited July 2, 2011 by Lumiere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309626401' post='2262142'] So then we have another "Church Militant" who says it it alright to deny homosexual people jobs or a place to live? And that position is backed up by the Church? [/quote] And just WHEN did I say THAT? And by that logic, do you still beat your wife? Edited July 2, 2011 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1309627846' post='2262152'] And just WHEN did I say THAT? And by that logic, do you still beat your wife? [/quote] Your comment was in response to my comment about a "Church Militant" who was advocating discrimination against homosexuals in work places and in housing. So you don't support discrimination against homosexuals in the workplace and in housing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309629850' post='2262159'] Your comment was in response to my comment about a "Church Militant" who was advocating discrimination against homosexuals in work places and in housing. So you don't support discrimination against homosexuals in the workplace and in housing? [/quote] My response was not in regard to the discrimination part, but to the disordered part. Some people on this thread cannot see the disordered and sinful part of this behavior. That is the basis, the [i]sine qua non[/i], of any discussion. Until people can understand that, there can be no meaningful discussion on [u]anyhing[/u] related to homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='Lumiere' timestamp='1309626572' post='2262144'] Here we have a "Church Scholar" who is advocating that homosexuals lose their rights outside of the church. Does Mother Church herself back this up? [/quote] I never said anyone should lose their rights. My point was that on this issue, there is no way for both sides to completely have the rights they feel they are entitled to. I was someone who performed legal services for gay couples to help them have some of the legal rights that come along automatically to legally married couples. I believe people should be allowed to leave their money to anyone they want to, or have them make their medical decisions for them, etc. Those are rights everyone should, and does, have. Sometimes it just means a bit more paperwork. The point I was trying to make is that if someone owns a bed and breakfast, they have to give up their right to free association in order to allow a gay couple the right to stay. A person who performs marriages here in Canada has to give up their right to religious belief that marriage is between one man and one woman in order to keep their job so that a gay couple can have their right to free association. That was my only point, that someone's rights will have to be infringed on. I'm the last person on Phatmass who discriminates against those with Same Sex Attraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309631891' post='2262170'] The point I was trying to make is that if someone owns a bed and breakfast, they have to give up their right to free association in order to allow a gay couple the right to stay.[/quote] The right to discriminate hardly seems like a right. If they feel that a potential customer is going to damage the property (e.g. a Drunk) or break the law (an old man with an underage partner) then fine. But if they have moral issues with gay people then that is not fine. Firstly, they don't know if the gay couple is going to have sex, secondly its none of their business, they are not implicated in this act, they are not the people's moral guide or moral police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 @Catherine M and @Norseman82 then why don't you challenge other "Church Militants" who advocate that homosexuals lose their rights outside the Church? Why do you let them go on and on in that kind of filth, not just in this thread but in all the other "Gay Issue" threads on this forum? If I trully believed in the Roman Catholic Church I would be mortally offended that someone would use the Church's religious stand to justify bigotry outside of the Church. I would consider that an offence against the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='tgoldson' timestamp='1309614271' post='2262086'] Okay. You're right that some people behave badly. I disagree that the Church teachings are to blame. There are also countless examples of Catholic people doing good things, but I guess that is beside the point. I am going to ask my gay friends if they ever felt that I acted uncharitable toward them because of a Church teaching. [/quote] Could I ask you to ask your gay friends if they think that the Catholic church's teachings as well as other Christian based churches teachings with regards to homosexuality contributes to some of the discrimination against gays that goes on in society? Also ask them how significant they think the teachings might be with regards to this discrimination. I know the church isn't asking people to behave badly towards people, but given the way human nature is, people often read things into what they are taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Perhaps there is also a problem in regard to our different opinions on what discrimination is. Standing up for our religious beliefs is considered bigotry in many places. I didn't make the rules (God did). I don't interpret the rules, all I can do is explain what they are, and why we should follow them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lumiere Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1309633780' post='2262177'] Could I ask you to ask your gay friends if they think that the Catholic church's teachings as well as other Christian based churches teachings with regards to homosexuality contributes to some of the discrimination against gays that goes on in society? Also ask them how significant they think the teachings might be with regards to this discrimination. I know the church isn't asking people to behave badly towards people, but given the way human nature is, people often read things into what they are taught. [/quote] It contributes to the discrimination on this forum. Why would "Church Militants" feel they have the right to say that homosexuals should be excluded from jobs and housing unless they felt the Church gave them the right to say that? You understand that I am making a distinction between activities inside the Church and activities outside the Church? At this point I am not discussing the Church's position, but the position of people who are called "Church Militants", who would call themselves Christians, who are advocating for discrimination outside of the Church. These people are saying it is OK to deny homosexuals jobs and housing simply because they are homosexual. Cardinal O'Malley says such discrimination is wrong. What do you say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts