homeschoolmom Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1309468633' post='2261167'] It has multiple purposes - including instructing everybody in the world. It is not solely the family and loved ones who bear the brunt - it's everybody, everywhere. That's why the public vs private makes a difference. Public affects everyone. If the sin was private, then there would be no purpose, and you'd be right. [/quote] This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1309468633' post='2261167'] It has multiple purposes - including instructing everybody in the world. It is not solely the family and loved ones who bear the brunt - it's everybody, everywhere. [/quote] It seems like you, and the Church, would be assuming that the family agreed with the homosexual lifestyle. What if they did everything you guys say they ought to have done--instruct, counsel, etc.? Why must they be FURTHER "instructed" on the day they have to bury their loved one? I bet they resent being lectured to on such a dolorous occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309468943' post='2261173'] It seems like you, and the Church, would be assuming that the family agreed with the homosexual lifestyle. What if they did everything you guys say they ought to have done--instruct, counsel, etc.? Why must they be FURTHER "instructed" on the day they have to bury their loved one? I bet they resent being lectured to on such a dolorous occasion. [/quote] For one, he already stated that the funeral issue is for the instruction of everyone, not just the family involved. For two, instruction does not stop once someone accepts Church teaching. There are [i]always [/i]plenty of opportunities to fortify one's faith. For three, assuming that the family is solid in their faith, would essentially be a judgment on their souls--albeit a positive one. Nobody is qualified to assume that another's heart is firmly with God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309468943' post='2261173'] It seems like you, and the Church, would be assuming that the family agreed with the homosexual lifestyle. What if they did everything you guys say they ought to have done--instruct, counsel, etc.? Why must they be FURTHER "instructed" on the day they have to bury their loved one? I bet they resent being lectured to on such a dolorous occasion. [/quote] No - again, forget about the family. This is about the rest of the world, in every time and place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309468943' post='2261173'] It seems like you, and the Church, would be assuming that the family agreed with the homosexual lifestyle. What if they did everything you guys say they ought to have done--instruct, counsel, etc.? Why must they be FURTHER "instructed" on the day they have to bury their loved one? I bet they resent being lectured to on such a dolorous occasion. [/quote] Listen, it smells of elderberries. I get that. My dad's an agnostic and, in accordance with his wishes, he will have a non-religious memorial service when he dies. I anticipate it will be one of the saddest events of my life. Now, I could go against his wishes and have a religious funeral for him. But why would I do that? It would not change the facts. Pretending that my dad is a Christian will not console me any more than having a Catholic funeral for a person who OPENLY lived a life contrary to Catholic teachings should console his family. It would be making a sham of the event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309464973' post='2261101'] If someone walked up to me on the street and said "Hey there Fat Man," they would be bashing me. Sure, they'd be speaking honestly--I am, in fact, overweight and a male-- but it is still disrespectful and mean. I think YOU are the one who is confused. [/quote] I honestly don't think most people are are bashing anyone in this thread--on either side. Could be wrong. I certainly don't think the parish in question is doing anything particularly uncharitable. I say "most" because I may have overlooked a few stray comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='XIX' timestamp='1309469483' post='2261176'] For one, he already stated that the funeral issue is for the instruction of everyone, not just the family involved. [/quote] [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1309469500' post='2261177'] No - again, forget about the family. This is about the rest of the world, in every time and place. [/quote] You are both ridiculous. The funeral is not for everyone in the world. There is no possible argument you could make for that position that would elicit anything other than derisive laughter and utter mockery from me.. Sorry. [quote name='homeschoolmom' timestamp='1309469558' post='2261178'] Listen, it smells of elderberries. I get that. My dad's an agnostic and, in accordance with his wishes, he will have a non-religious memorial service when he dies. I anticipate it will be one of the saddest events of my life. Now, I could go against his wishes and have a religious funeral for him. But why would I do that? It would not change the facts. Pretending that my dad is a Christian will not console me any more than having a Catholic funeral for a person who OPENLY lived a life contrary to Catholic teachings should console his family. It would be making a sham of the event. [/quote] I guess we'll agree to disagree here, HSM. I don't think the funeral would be a "sham" at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='XIX' timestamp='1309469893' post='2261181'] I honestly don't think most people are are bashing anyone in this thread--on either side. Could be wrong. I certainly don't think the parish in question is doing anything particularly uncharitable. [/quote] You are correct. No one is "bashing" anyone on this thread; however, a question was raised as to what constitutes "bashing." One person said that it's not "bashing" if it's "honest." My post was a refutation of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309470079' post='2261182'] You are both ridiculous. The funeral is not for everyone in the world. There is no possible argument you could make for that position that would elicit anything other than derisive laughter and utter mockery from me.. Sorry. [/quote] Not literally everyone in the world, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1309465760' post='2261122'] The Church doesn't exclude anyone. No one physically prevented him from entering a church to attend mass. He made the choice to not attend. No one refused him last rites, he did not ask for them. No one prevented him from entering the confessional. He chose to avoid reconciliation. [/quote] But a lot of follow Church rules. There are those of us who choose to remain celebate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309470168' post='2261183'] You are correct. No one is "bashing" anyone on this thread; however, a question was raised as to what constitutes "bashing." One person said that it's not "bashing" if it's "honest." My post was a refutation of that. [/quote] [quote] No , no one in this thread has bashed anyone, honesty is not bashing. You are also a bit confused about "judging". There is nothing wrong with judging someone's behavior, however judgement of the HEART belongs to God. [/quote] Cmom is saying that not all honesty is bashing. You are stating that some honesty is bashing. There's really no disagreement here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1309465757' post='2261121'] Wrong. Judging behavior is NOT the same as judging ones heart. We are called to judge behavior all the time, this is why we have a legal system in the country and canon law in the church, and why parents teach their children right from wrong, because not all behavior is acceptable. This is also why we have confession because we have committed a sin ( as judged by the law of GOD) and we need to confess and repent and make amends. [/quote] I am not referring to criminals here. I understand we need rules or else there would be anarchy. But I think gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender should be welcome. And I guarantee you none of us feels welcome.[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1309465695' post='2261117'] Could you please explain then, what you mean by "gay bashing?" So, we can't say someone is doing something wrong if they kill another person? That's judging a behavior. We can't say that someone is doing something wrong if they are cheating on their spouse? That is judging a behavior. For that matter, you're judging that this is gay bashing. And you just said no one has the right to judge anything, so how can you make that judgement? [/quote] I don't make that judgement. God's Word does! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='Debra Little' timestamp='1309470569' post='2261191'] But a lot of follow Church rules. There are those of us who choose to remain celebate. [/quote] But that's not the discussion-- the discussion is about an openly gay man who had a partner... not a celebate person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309457025' post='2260937'] Would that extend to a really Catholic grocer who knows for sure that some of his customers are active homosexuals? Does allowing them to shop at his store "give the impression" that he is okay with their lifestyle?[/quote] A grocer selling food to somebody does not imply that he approves of their lifestyle. I am sure a grocer sells to many people whose private lives are despicable, but selling groceries does not do anything to indicate giving approval to anyone's lifestyle or sexual activities. If he sold them homosexually-oriented magazines, books, or videos, that might be another matter. The problem is that you seem to think that a Catholic funeral is a commodity the Church owes to every paying customer - like selling groceries - and that is not the case. Unlike groceries at a grocery store, the Church only gives funerals to those who are Catholics in good standing with the Church - which can exclude those who publicly and unrepentantly lived a lifestyle blatantly contrary to Catholic moral teaching. It's the same way the Church can refuse to give Holy Communion to those outside the Church, or living lives of grave unrepentant public sin. The Church can also refuse marriage to those outside the Church, or who do not meet the Church's requirements for a Catholic marriage. Also, a priest can refuse absolution to a person in the confessional who shows no sign of true repentance. The funeral may not be a sacrament like those other examples, but it is a related spiritual matter only bestowed on those living in communion with the Catholic Church - it is not some right owed to whomever wants it. The Church doesn't say such people should not be buried, just that they should not have a Catholic funeral. [quote]How about a group of black guys? Or an interracial couple?[/quote] How about them? I think they're amesome. Let's keep this on topic, please. Edited June 30, 2011 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debra Little Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1309465193' post='2261106'] I dunno about you, but it wouldn't "scandalize" me if a gay person was afforded a Catholic funeral. What DOES scandalize me is seeing the Church, and its congregation, deliberately excluding and disrespecting people. That's not the Church I love, and it's not the attitude our Lord would want. [/quote] It's not only the Catholic Church that does this but many churches. People Christian and non Christian are guilty of this. As a Church we are guilty of not loving those who are different than us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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