Will Obama Destroy Franciscan University Of Steubenville?

[Nunsense]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1317650849' post='2314573']
you have a daughter nunsense, if defending her made you a fanatic would you care?

Im fine with being a fanatic for my niece. Should we only speak of issues we have no real interest or involvement in? A remote detachment? This is how I preach on this. If people dont like it then put me on ignore.
[/quote]

No, once again you are taking things personally and emotionally. I have no intention of ignoring anyone on here as I don't personally feel threatened by anyone. I am just stating my point of view as you are stating yours. Doesn't mine deserve as much attention and respect as yours does? I am not arguing content - I am vehemently opposed to abortion, and it has affected me more personally than it has you - but I am not going to discuss that on a Internet forum, even to make a point. I am arguing delivery method and the ways that it might be more effective. If you are getting good results with your tactics, then of course you are going to continue in your ways. I am much less inclined to attack the sinners - I see the evil and want it stopped, but I happen to believe that an aggressive approach isn't always the best one. It has already made you hostile to me here!

Anyway, this is the Debate Table, so we are debating.... no harm, no foul (at least as far as I am concerned).

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1317651219' post='2314579']

No, once again you are taking things personally and emotionally. I have no intention of ignoring anyone on here as I don't personally feel threatened by anyone. I am just stating my point of view as you are stating yours. Doesn't mine deserve as much attention and respect as yours does? I am not arguing content - I am vehemently opposed to abortion, and it has affected me more personally than it has you - but I am not going to discuss that on a Internet forum, even to make a point. I am arguing delivery method and the ways that it might be more effective. If you are getting good results with your tactics, then of course you are going to continue in your ways. I am much less inclined to attack the sinners - I see the evil and want it stopped, but I happen to believe that an aggressive approach isn't always the best one. It has already made you hostile to me here!

Anyway, this is the Debate Table, so we are debating.... no harm, no foul (at least as far as I am concerned).
[/quote]

well, i agree no one should take things too personally, i mean, i get surprised when peeps get so hurt just because you dont' agree with their opinions, and heck, Vee is like THE nicest, sweetest person in the whole wide world, but they read her post and judge her incorrectly... the interwebz leaves a lot to be desired in terms of conveying true emotions and all...


yeah, peeps get hurt but then I realize its really just pride...

(and we'll all suffer from that until 10 mins after we're dead....)

[Nunsense]

And a p.s. - I am not an Obama fan - the title of this thread was what got me looking here in the first place!

[vee]

Psalm 55 His speech was smooth as butter,
yet war was in his heart;
his words were softer than oil,
yet they were drawn swords.

Not all that is soft and sweet is honest.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1317651617' post='2314581']

yeah, peeps get hurt but then I realize its really just pride...

(and we'll all suffer from that until 10 mins after we're dead....)
[/quote]

Not me!




I've written a book about how humble I am.... and it's the greatest book ever written!

[Nunsense]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1317651663' post='2314583']
Psalm 55 His speech was smooth as butter,
yet war was in his heart;
his words were softer than oil,
yet they were drawn swords.

Not all that is soft and sweet is honest.
[/quote]

Who said it was?

That is what I mean though. One can say something with sweetness - and still be passionate about it. You are reading this from a crooked angle... the poem actually supports what I am saying! You can have all that fire and passion in your heart and be as rabidly anti-anything that you want... but how you present often makes the difference between whether your words are effective or not.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1317647596' post='2314536']


i think she's speaking of the way you judged her posts as "absurd." I didn't find it absurd to be soo passionate about the murder of the unborn. And if posting pictures of aborted babies is absurd, well then so is posting pictures of Christ scourged and crucified. Let's not make people feel guilty, so lets pull the Corpus off crosses now!!!

you can preach to people one way, its not the only way... I know of some people who totally changed after seeing pictures like that...

and if being passionate about the unborn makes me absurd, then absurd I will be...
[/quote]

Actually I first mentioned the word "absurd" when I perceived someone saying that Obama was personally attacking Franciscan. [i]That [/i]specifically was absurd. I have perceived nothing but kindness and civility in Deus_te_Amat's responses, something that I can hardly say for those of certain other people in this thread. Others took my word "absurd" and applied it to things I never intended it to be applied to, further twisting the meaning of my posts into something of a straw man.

But which ways are more effective? Personally demonizing me and building up my responses into a straw man for you to burn? I'm on your side! Or at least I'm trying to be. There is a time and place for passionate rhetoric, and in those times and places it can be incredibly effective. In my case, it wasn't. All I ever want to do is to understand. I'm not afraid of changing my stances or opinions.

"If I speak in human and angelic tongues, but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. "

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1317651617' post='2314581']

well, i agree no one should take things too personally, i mean, i get surprised when peeps get so hurt just because you dont' agree with their opinions, and heck, Vee is like THE nicest, sweetest person in the whole wide world, but they read her post and judge her incorrectly... the interwebz leaves a lot to be desired in terms of conveying true emotions and all...


yeah, peeps get hurt but then I realize its really just pride...

(and we'll all suffer from that until 10 mins after we're dead....)
[/quote]

Lol, I'm guilty of taking things personally for sure.

[Amppax]

You know, it really hasn't been too big of a deal here (sorry I'm getting back on topic). I wrote a letter a while back, but haven't really thought about it much. It's ridiculous, yes, and I know the administration is pretty concerned, but honestly, I don't feel like the President is specifically attacking my school. Religious institutions in general, Catholic institutions in particular? Yes. Franciscan? Nah.

Oh, and add some more fun, I shall introduce to you my buddy, Marc Barnes!



[quote]
[b] Contraception Uber Alles![/b]




[list]
[*]
[*]I received this message from a friend last night. I'd been following the issue, but had no idea that it was so immediate, and so I apologize for not tackling it sooner. For all practical purposes, Our Dear Government is telling Catholic health institutions that they must support contraceptive/sterilization use or cease to exist. Alternatively, they could serve and employ [i]solely[/i] Catholics, which, from every angle you look at it, is an entirely whack compromise. (Sorry, cancer-patient at St. Jude's. We're moving you to a city hospital; you're an atheist.) It is a serious step backwards for a society of religious tolerance and pluralism, and downright embarrassing for Americans to have to realize just how dumb our leaders are. I'll post on it in detail eventually, but for now:
[*]


Tonight I received a notification from one of my professors concerning a new mandate implementing the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), which acts against the Catholic Church’s belief for the protection of all human life. These new guidelines, titled 76 Fed. Reg. 46621 (3 August 2011), mandate that “all individual and group health insurance plans, including self-insured plans, cover all FDA-approved contraception and sterilization procedures”

PLEASE READ THE ATTACHED DOCUMENTS to learn how these guidelines violate the practice of our Catholic faith.

These guidelines will supposedly take effect on August 1, 2012, unless there are enough letters (HAND-WRITTEN IS MOST EFFECTIVE) sent to Ms. Secretary Kathleen Sebelius at:

Kathleen Sebelius, Secretary
U.S. Department for Health and Human Services
200 Independence Avenue, S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20201

I realize that this is short notice but the deadline for the “public comment period” is TOMORROW, SEPTEMBER 30th. Which means that if you want to express the Catholic Church’s opinion towards this new legislation, then you must WRITE AND MAIL YOUR LETTER TO SECRETARY SEBELIUS TOMORROW!!!

I have included a statement from Bishop David A. Zubik of the Diocese of Pittsburg; a sample letter; and Bishop Zubuik’s letter, which all came from the Diocese of Pittsburgh’s website ([url="http://www.diopitt.org/"]www.diopitt.org[/url]).

Statement:

[url="http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/HHSguidelines1.pdf"]http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/HHSguidelines1.pdf[/url]
Sample Letter:

[url="http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/HHSsampleletteto%20SecretarySebeliusr.pdf"]http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/HHSsampleletteto%20SecretarySebeliusr.pdf[/url]
Bishop Zubik’s Letter:

[url="http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/Bishop"]http://diopitt.org/sites/default/files/Bishop's%20letter%20to%20Secretary%20Kathleen%20Sebelius.pdf[/url]All of this does nothing to counteract my growing belief that the federal government has lost any authority it ever had to oblige us to do anything at all.
[/list]
[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317589329' post='2314075']

Exactly. HEALTH INSURANCE. Just because Steubenville is one of many faithful Catholic institutions affected doesn't mean it's personally under attack, and to paint the picture as such is what I was calling inflammatory rhetoric.[/quote]
While I sincerely doubt that Obama or his cronies were specifically targeting FUS when they proposed these regulations, the fact remains that federal government mandates dictating that private institutions must buy "healthcare" paying for blatantly immoral practices (including the murder of unborn children) are themselves, in addition to their blatant immorality, blatantly unconstitutional acts of tyranny contrary to every principle of a free republic.

From Franciscan president Fr. Terrence Henry's statement:
[quote]“By making this insurance coverage mandatory, our government has violated the consciences of people of faith and infringed on our rights to practice our religious beliefs,” Father Henry’s statement said. “Mandatory contraception and sterilization coverage in college student insurance plans force Catholic colleges to undermine our missions as Catholic institutions.”

The so-called “religious exemption” Father Henry said, “will very likely not protect Franciscan University of Steubenville or hundreds of other Catholic colleges, schools, and organizations,” including Catholic hospitals, nursing homes, and social service agencies, which serve people regardless of religious affiliation.[/quote]

These unjust and immoral regulations wouldn't just affect the Franciscan University of Steubenville, but any other organization which chooses not to provide "healthcare" plans paying for contraception and child murder, and that, imho, makes them worse. It's socialistic tyranny that effects us all.



[quote]Oh really? Maybe not for you, but the Obama administration has done plenty of things other than play golf. Obama is the reason why I can stay on my parents' health insurance until I'm 26 because I'm a full-time grad student. If it weren't for that and the generosity of my parents, I would be living below the poverty line and would not have any health insurance. [/quote]
Oh indeed. I was growing lax in my faith in Dear Leader, and forgot that we owe all good things to his Merciful Benevolence.


[quote]Obama signed an act that increases the scope of hate crimes to include crimes against someone because of their gender, sexual orientation and disability.[/quote]
Wait . . . This is supposed to be a reason we should [i]support[/i] Obama?

The scope of federal legal power should not be increased to legislate against politically incorrect thought patterns, particularly regarding immoral behavior. All so-called "hate crime" legislation does in practice is grant homosexuals and such special additional legal protection. Committing a crime against a homosexual should carry no more and no less legal penalty than committing the same crime against a "straight" person. Justice should be blind, not weighted according to pc sexual politics.


[quote]He increased Pell Grants so more students can afford to go to college. He negotiated an agreement with Russia to reduce the number of nuclear weapons both of our countries have by 1/3. He expanded the Children's Health Insurance Program to cover millions of more uninsured children and pregnant women.


Yes, he isn't pro-life, but you honestly can't say that he hasn't done [i]anything [/i]for America. I'll probably get stoned for saying this, but I believe that abortion issues are not the only issues in politics. Yes, it [i]is[/i] incredibly important for us to be concerned with life issues. But at the same time what are we doing to help people once they're born? I don't agree with everything he's done or what he stands for, but someone would have to be blind to think that he hasn't done a single thing for the betterment of this country.[/quote]
Yes Obama's done a lot towards bankrupting our nation, but I suppose our children and grandchildren will pay for it all, or our ever-benevolent friends in China will bail us out (that is, if they weren't facing crises of their own).

Regarding abortion issues in politics, you might do well to read what our current Holy Father wrote as prefect of the CDF regarding political support of abortion and worthiness to receive Our Lord in Holy Communion. ([url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/cdfworthycom.htm"]"Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles," Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith[/url])
Political support of abortion is an excommunicable offense for a Catholic, while failure to support expansion of spending tax dollars on Pell Grants and such (at least to my limited knowledge) is not.

[quote][b] Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.[/b] For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment.[b] There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/b][/quote]

You have not provided any reasons for supporting Obama remotely approaching abortion in moral weight.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1317587652' post='2314065']

I find the constant conservative comments about Obama's vacations and golf a little disengenuous, as the previous conservative president took nearly 3 times as much time off in the same time period
[/quote]
Source? I've heard otherwise, but I generally find such comparisons irrelevant.

Quite frankly, the more time Obama spends playing golf, and shooting hoops, and whatnot, the better. Maybe he should go pro. The man's absolutely disastrous as a president.


And calling G.W. "conservative" is rather a joke.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Socrates

[missionseeker]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1317649275' post='2314550']


yes, i agree, but after battling with pro-aborts and rabid feminists over abortion for more than 30 years, sometimes the truth helps, especially when showing what abortion really is... for decades they fought us with the "they are only blobs of tissues" argument. Those pictures clearly show that they are not blobs of tissue but human beings... also, with the high tech of today, you can actually see the baby in the womb more than in the decades passed...

like i said, there are more ways to preach to peeps, not just one way...
[/quote]


BasillisaMarie is NOT pro-abortion, nor is she a radical feminist. She is not saying those are only blobs of tissue, nor is she in denial about the horrors of abortion. So for those pictures to be directed to her is kind of insulting, I would think, because essentially, it does seem to be equating her with that. It definitely would have turned me away from engaging in anymore conversation with you guys if I HAD been arguing about that. Some forms are "preaching" can be very poor taste.

[vee]

I posted those pics not DS. The images speak for themselves, 1000 words each. More words than those people ever had a chance to say before their lives were cut short.

[vee]

I think, when speaking of abortion it helps to keep in mind the reality of what abortion is. Those pics show what we are talking about.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317590064' post='2314080']
Right...I'm only thinking of myself.

Well then, I guess we'll agree that you can keep only thinking about the rights of the unborn, and I'll think about those while also clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless and educating the ignorant. All I meant was that even if people think he's the worst president ever, you can't deny that he has done SOME THINGS for this country.
[/quote]
When a nation is utterly bankrupted (as the current course of federal spending will do), it will not effective in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, etc.

And with all due respect, I seriously doubt you will actually be in imminent danger of dying naked of starvation in a gutter without your government college grants. (Nor will you be utterly ignorant unless you choose to be. You can rent all the great books of western civilization from your library and read them for free, and be better educated than most with advanced degrees.) Things may be a bit tougher for you, but you need to put things in perspective.

Besides, the corporal and spiritual works of mercy are primarily the responsibility of all us as Christians, rather than of government bureaucracies.

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317591633' post='2314117']
Lol, I'm confused as to what you mean.

I don't know...I guess I just don't like it when people seem to ignore the entirety of Catholic Social Teaching in favor of fighting abortion. I mean, that's all God cares about, right? If God only cares about the unborn, then why should we care about anyone else?
[/quote]
Perhaps you could enlighten the rest of us as to exactly what items of Catholic teaching those of us who refuse to support Obama and his socialistic schemes are ignoring.

If you are under the unfortunate mistaken impression that Catholic Social Teaching somehow dictates supporting ever-increasing federal spending on various government social programs, you would do well to read this passage from Pope John Paul II's encyclical[i] Centesimus Annus[/i]:
[quote]In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called "Welfare State". This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the "Social Assistance State". Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again [i]the principle of subsidiarity [/i]must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.


By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbours to those in need.[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1317606881' post='2314275']

Your point is taken, however are you aware that invoking Hitler causes you to automatically forfeit any argument you are making on the internet. This is because inevitably, even if you are discussing Browns vs. Steelers or brats vs. weiners, someone will bring up Hitler...eventually. Tis the least useful philosophy trick on the Internet, ever.

ETA: AKA, [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law"]Godwin's Law[/url]
[/quote]
Hitler was a weiner.

That's why I prefer to bring up Hitler's chief rival in totalitarian evil, Joseph Stalin, instead. He was actually even nastier than Hitler, and sported a much better mustache (as opposed to that pathetic little toothbrush thing old Adolf wore on his upper lip).

[Socrates]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1317665611' post='2314690']
I think, when speaking of abortion it helps to keep in mind the reality of what abortion is. Those pics show what we are talking about.
[/quote]
It's much nicer to sit back in our easy chairs, sip cocktails, an discuss vague, pleasant-sounding abstractions like "the right to choose," "personal autonomy," and "rights to privacy," rather than deal with the ugly facts.

Then, we can slap ourselves on the back for our "reasonableness," and rather than get bogged down in divisiveness, seek the all-important "common ground" - and focus on what we all can agree on, like how we need to support Obama and more federal spending on everything.

[Basilisa Marie]

Socrates, I'm not going to argue with you. I've already stated plenty and tried to re-clarify my position on multiple issues that have been circulating in this thread. I'd rather not contribute more fodder to be misinterpreted unless it's in response to a thoughtful reply.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1317612037' post='2314365']

i only meant to say that it would hurt more if they DIDNT sharpen the pitchforks before they go a-stabbin'


[/quote]
it's the debate table, reading comprehension not required.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1317667102' post='2314706']
it's the debate table, reading comprehension not required.
[/quote]
I'm pretty sure there is no requirement for reading comprehension anywhere on Phatmass. If there is, I should probably start banning people who lack it.