Will Obama Destroy Franciscan University Of Steubenville?

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1317686973' post='2314860']
And the fact that you're all on the same side in the abortion debate makes it all the worse.
[/quote]

people here dont like to let a little thing like holding the same position get in the way of impassioned ranting.

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1317687765' post='2314867']

people here dont like to let a little thing like holding the same position get in the way of impassioned ranting.
[/quote]
This.


It is disappointing that Christians who basically believe the same thing (that abortion is evil) should be unable to dialogue and debate about methods of getting the message across to others simply because they want to score points through personal insults.

[add]

the Obamacare sterilization-and-contraception mandate not only applies to individual Americans but also includes a “religious exemption” that is so narrowly drawn it does not include Catholic hospitals, charitable organizations or colleges and universities, and, thus, if finalized, would force these Catholic institutions to choose between acting against the teachings of their own church or dropping all health-care coverage for their employees.

talk about your pro-choice,

Edited October 4, 2011 by add

[dominicansoul]

Sadly, Catholics aren't on the same page. Here is a statistic from the election in 2008:


[quote]Nationally Obama captured 53% of the Catholic vote, a 13-point swing from 2004 and the largest advantage among the group for a Democrat since Bill Clinton. [/quote]

Overall, the hispanic Catholic vote was overwhelmingly for Obama. And the black Catholic vote as well. Many Catholics ignored statements from their bishops to not vote for the pro-abortion candidate.

So, now we have the obama administration trying to enforce their deadly brand of health care in our catholic universities... well, we voted for it...

[dominicansoul]

oh, and another observation from the past election: Catholics overwhelmingly said that the economy, not abortion, was the [i]dominant[/i] issue...

[dominicansoul]

---taken from Time magazine dated November 5th, 2008...

[tinytherese]

I have the feeling that this thread will be closed.

[vee]

oooooh maybe Ill get banned too!!!

[Basilisa Marie]

A friend of mine showed me an article in First things that made an interesting argument about it (The original topic of this thread), and other attacks on various religious rights.

[url="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/10/legislating-the-constitution-down"]http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/10/legislating-the-constitution-down[/url]

You know it must be grave when even Notre Dame is complaining.

But in all seriousness, I think it makes a valid point. The article talks about how gay rights activists often say that they're just trying to let homosexual persons "live as who they are" in society. Okay, fine, I can understand that argument (even though I don't agree, [i]obviously[/i]). But what about Catholics and other religious people getting to live as we are, freely in society? Is this really going to turn into a tyranny of the majority over a religious minority? Unless something changes, I'm not sure how it won't.

[Papist]

They are trying to do the same at Belmont Abbey College via the EEOC stating it is discriminatory.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1317668546' post='2314722']

The thing is that is from a fax cover sheet sent to a bunch of bishops. It is not a published part of Catholic teaching. It's basically the head of the CDF sending his advice to bishops. I always see it used to kind of justify downplaying the more social justicey issues. Note that the fax does not state that health insurance, care for the environment, the death penalty, and peace are non-priorities or that they are "socialist" or that they can be ignored. In fact I think if you asked the Pope he would strenuously object to that characterization. He wrote his own social encyclical, Caritas in Veritate, which is strangely ignored by everybody who talks about Centesimus Annus. They are high priorities, just not as high as eliminating abortion.
[/quote]
Trying to downplay and dismiss this memorandum from Cardinal Ratzinger to the bishops as a "fax cover sheet" (not sure where you got that from - the memo may have been faxed, but the quote is from the body of the memo) is a weak and pointless non-argument in my opinion. Card. Ratzinger was speaking as prefect of the CDF (a position essentially second only to the Pope himself in terms of authority regarding moral and doctrinal matters), and apparently thought this matter important enough to write the bishops about, so I don't think its words can be lightly tossed aside as something trivial or inconsequential.
Rather than dismiss it as a "fax cover sheet," we should perhaps consider whether Cardinal Ratzinger actually meant what he wrote there. Everything certainly indicates that he did, and that when he wrote those words to the bishops, he wasn't just blowing smoke, joking, or fooling around. Cardinal Ratzinger was never one to toss out words idly, particularly on matters of such importance.
Unless you can provide something from Cardinal Ratzinger/Pope Benedict himself indicating that he didn't really mean what he wrote there, I think it best to take his words at face value and not dismiss them.

I never said issues other than abortion are non-priorities or can be ignored. I referenced [i]Centesimus Annus[/i] to point out that the Church does not in fact require that Catholics support every increase in federal spending to cover things such as college tuition or forced health insurance. To say so - much less put them on a moral level with abortion - is simply false. I would definitely argue that much of Obama's legislation is, in fact, quite contrary to the whole principle of subsidiarity As the quoted passage shows, John Paul II was not an unqualified supporter of inordinate increases in government bureaucracy and runaway government spending - even to perform tasks that are in themselves good.

Nobody (all hysterical leftist agit-prop to the contrary) opposes helping the poor and needy, or wishes the poor and sick to be left to die. We conservatives simply disagree that the programs advocated by Obama and other left-wingers will best accomplish this in the long run, especially with our country rapidly being bankrupted. I'm sure you disagree, but such things can be legitimately argued and debated, while abortion can not - it's just wrong period. None of the things touted on this thread as reasons to support Obama - extending federal spending on educational grants and healthcare programs, "hate crime" laws regarding homosexuals, etc., comes anywhere close to abortion in moral gravity.

[Socrates]

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1317686973' post='2314860']
And the fact that you're all on the same side in the abortion debate makes it all the worse.
[/quote]
Everyone here may agree that abortion is wrong, but there is disagreement over whether there are morally proportionate reasons to justify supporting a blatantly pro-abortion politician such as Obama. I don't think that is an entirely trivial disagreement.

This is the debate table, after all, not the let's-agree-on-everything table.

[GeorgiiMichael]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1317755521' post='2315287']
Everyone here may agree that abortion is wrong, but there is disagreement over whether there are morally proportionate reasons to justify supporting a blatantly pro-abortion politician such as Obama. I don't think that is an entirely trivial disagreement.

This is the debate table, after all, not the let's-agree-on-everything table.
[/quote]

Nope. That's not even the issue. You are all arguing over nothing. BrasiliaMarie was only attempting to break through the fear mongering propaganda that the article was using, and bring to light the fact that Obama, while pro-abortion, has done some good things that shouldnt' be ignored. She wasn't saying that they were more important than the abortion issue. She was just saying that he isn't [i]quite[/i] as terrible as this board seems to think he is.

As Catholics, we have an intimate relationship with Truth. So why should we ignore simple truths? Such as Obama not being the anti-Christ, just because he supports abortion.

No one is saying that abortion isn't a major issue, just that abortion isn't the only issue. Other goods shouldn't be ignored simply because our president doesn't support the dignity of life pre-birth. Abortion isn't even the only pro-life issue.

Politicians don't run on single issues. So they shouldn't be judged on single issues either.

And this post shouldn't be seen as a pro-Obama post. I did not vote for him, and I don't plan to vote for him either.

Take a page from the man who's name you take, and read and understand what the other side is saying before jumping to conclusions. You can quote the Holy Father all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you take what you think people are saying and run with it, instead of really reading and coming to an agreement.

Everyone here agrees on the issues. And agrees that abortion is a major issue. Some of us see that you can't, and shouldn't, throw the baby out with the bathwater. As pro-lifers, we should all be able to agree with that.

[Lil Red]

Abortion isn't just [b]a[/b] major issue. It is [b]the[/b] pre-eminent life issue.

And yes, I will judge politicians on [b]this[/b] single issue.

So Obama has done some good? Okay. Good. Has he furthered the abortion industry? Yes. And not just furthered, but protected the abortion industry. Negates any good he has done (in my eyes).

[add]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317735872' post='2315136']
A friend of mine showed me an article in First things that made an interesting argument about it (The original topic of this thread), and other attacks on various religious rights.

[url="http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2011/10/legislating-the-constitution-down"]http://www.firstthin...nstitution-down[/url]

You know it must be grave when even Notre Dame is complaining.

But in all seriousness, I think it makes a valid point. The article talks about how gay rights activists often say that they're just trying to let homosexual persons "live as who they are" in society. Okay, fine, I can understand that argument (even though I don't agree, [i]obviously[/i]). But what about Catholics and other religious people getting to live as we are, freely in society? Is this really going to turn into a tyranny of the majority over a religious minority? Unless something changes, I'm not sure how it won't.
[/quote]
Are you saying that I may be among a catholic minority opposed to the Obamacare reproductive mandates, which makes me and the like minded, somehow invalid because the overwhelmingly majority of catholic perceived Obamacare to be a good thing?
I object to having to pay for the Obamacare reproductive mandates.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='add' timestamp='1317769738' post='2315393']
Are you saying that I may be among a catholic minority opposed to the Obamacare reproductive mandates, which makes me and the like minded, somehow invalid because the overwhelmingly majority of catholic perceived Obamacare to be a good thing?
I object to having to pay for the Obamacare reproductive mandates.
[/quote]

Nope. I was saying that we could be rapidly approaching a time where all faithful Catholics will be in a religious minority whose rights to free expression will be violated by a secular majority. You and me both among that minority. And that this reproductive "rights" proposal is a greater symptom of this general shift.

[add]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1317771077' post='2315398']

Nope. I was saying that we could be rapidly approaching a time where all faithful Catholics will be in a religious minority whose rights to free expression will be violated by a secular majority. You and me both among that minority. And that this reproductive "rights" proposal is a greater symptom of this general shift.
[/quote]
unacceptable, no way Jose

[Winchester]

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1317761866' post='2315332']

Nope. That's not even the issue. You are all arguing over nothing. BrasiliaMarie was only attempting to break through the fear mongering propaganda that the article was using, and bring to light the fact that Obama, while pro-abortion, has done some good things that shouldnt' be ignored.
[/quote]
Violating the right of private individuals is not "good". Obamacare is utter poo.

[Socrates]

[quote name='GeorgiiMichael' timestamp='1317761866' post='2315332']

Nope. That's not even the issue. You are all arguing over nothing. BrasiliaMarie was only attempting to break through the fear mongering propaganda that the article was using, and bring to light the fact that Obama, while pro-abortion, has done some good things that shouldnt' be ignored. She wasn't saying that they were more important than the abortion issue. She was just saying that he isn't [i]quite[/i] as terrible as this board seems to think he is.[/quote]
While I could be wrong (Brasilisa can correct me if I am), it appeared her early posts in this thread that I was responding to were defending Obama, and seemed to be saying that she regards abortion simply as one issue among many. I went back and read over them again to see if I had inadvertantly missed something, and it still seems to be what they are saying.

And while I can agree that the wording of the Blackwell article was rather poor in talking as if these federal "guidlines" was made specifically with the purpose of bringing down FUS, it is still an absolutely horrible proposal which is an affront to religious liberty and freedom of conscience everywhere in this country, and should be opposed.

[quote]As Catholics, we have an intimate relationship with Truth. So why should we ignore simple truths? Such as Obama not being the anti-Christ, just because he supports abortion.[/quote]
I never claimed that Obama is the anti-Christ, but he is arguably the worst president in our nation's history.

[quote]No one is saying that abortion isn't a major issue, just that abortion isn't the only issue. Other goods shouldn't be ignored simply because our president doesn't support the dignity of life pre-birth. Abortion isn't even the only pro-life issue.


Politicians don't run on single issues. So they shouldn't be judged on single issues either.[/quote]
The truth is that I don't ignore other issues, though abortion certainly trumps most other contemporary political issues, morally speaking.

And quite frankly, Obama's record on the other issues stinks as well. I disagree that many of the things Brasilisa listed in his defense are in fact goods. While expansion of government spending on educational grants and healthcare spending, etc. may seem nice now, the fact is that our country is over 14 trillion dollars in debt, and counting, and somebody's going to have to pay for all the money he's spending down the line. Putting an un-payable debt on our children and grandchildren is simply not in our country's best interest. The long-term effects of this administration's runaway spending will irrevocably bankrupt our country if continued unchecked.

Obama's policies are like someone being deep over his head in credit card debt, then getting an other credit card to pay off the debt from the first card. Looks great at first - look at all the cash! - but it the long run, it's disastrous, and is not in that person's best interest.

And Obama's plan of forcing citizens to buy health insurance is in itself unconstitutional tyranny.

I don't regard the expansion of "hate crimes" legislation to be a good at all.

While I know there are those on here who disagree, I hardly consider Obama's rabidly pro-abortion stance a lone blemish on an otherwise stellar record.

[quote]And this post shouldn't be seen as a pro-Obama post. I did not vote for him, and I don't plan to vote for him either.[/quote]
Good.

[quote]Take a page from the man who's name you take, and read and understand what the other side is saying before jumping to conclusions. You can quote the Holy Father all you like, it doesn't change the fact that you take what you think people are saying and run with it, instead of really reading and coming to an agreement.


Everyone here agrees on the issues. And agrees that abortion is a major issue. Some of us see that you can't, and shouldn't, throw the baby out with the bathwater. As pro-lifers, we should all be able to agree with that.
[/quote]
I'll make up my own mind as to whom and what I should agree with here.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1317776197' post='2315458']
Violating the right of private individuals is not "good". Obamacare is utter poo.
[/quote]
Amen.

[Basilisa Marie]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1317777442' post='2315469']
While I could be wrong (Brasilisa can correct me if I am), it appeared her early posts in this thread that I was responding to were defending Obama, and seemed to be saying that she regards abortion simply as one issue among many. I went back and read over them again to see if I had inadvertantly missed something, and it still seems to be what they are saying.

[/quote]

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

I only defended Obama in so much as I rather dislike negative blanket statements about presidents that say that they haven't done ANYTHING good. Personally I just have a certain level of respect for the office itself, regardless of who is in it. I didn't vote for him, and I don't think he's an amesome president or anything like that. And I didn't mean to say that abortion is "merely" one issue out of many, and later tried to clarify that while abortion and life issues are very important and can be the primary focus of our energy, we shouldn't ignore the rest of what we're supposed to do to help others in need in the pursuit of defending life. That's all. I thought people were implying that abortion was the only thing that mattered at all in Catholic social teaching, but that wasn't the case. I respect the fact that you disagree with me about whether or not the things I mentioned are good. That's fair enough.