Occupy Wall Street Baloney

[Adrestia]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1319638090' post='2327257']
I say, protest at the polls!!! That'll make them pay attention...
[/quote]

Can anyone in the USA run a successful political campaign with donations from corporations?

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1319608010' post='2327177']
Wow, it appears that the Pope himself supports many of the ideas behind the Occupy Wallstreet Protests...
[url="http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141659992/occupy-wall-streets-most-unlikely-ally-the-pope"]http://www.npr.org/2...y-ally-the-pope[/url]
[/quote]
A wonderful example of why NPR should be defunded. They can't get it right; they only go left.

The latest paper from a Vatican council does not equal papal endorsement.

Second, none of the quotes from the papal encyclical mentioned in the article conflict with conservative thinking. Conservatives have always called for a free and [b]fair[/b] market, fairness in competition, employment, and responsibilities. The problem with liberal/progressive thinking is in believing the government is the source and summit of fairness. If there is inequality today, it is more than likely because government is the cause of it.

I wonder if those who take joy in the possibility of the pope siding with their opinions would share such joy when the pope truly speaks with authority on other matters, like Catholic teachings and the necessity of being in union with Christ's church, the Catholic Church.

There's been a lot of hype about this paper. And as is normal, the press often gets things wrong with it comes to the Vatican and the pope. Here is George Weigel's interpretation, which seems a saner view.

[quote]
...
Drudge got it wrong: “Vatican Calls for ‘Central World Bank’.” CNBC got it wrong: “The Vatican called on Monday for the establishment of a ‘global public authority’ and a ‘central world bank’.” The best of the Italian [i]Vaticanisti[/i], Sandro Magister of [i]L’espresso[/i], linked Occupy Wall Street and “the Vatican at the Barricades” in the headline of his insta-commentary, a theme also harped upon by the deposed editor of [i]America[/i], Fr. Thomas Reese, S.J.

All of which was “rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.”

The truth of the matter is that “the Vatican” — whether that phrase is intended to mean the Pope, the Holy See, the Church’s teaching authority, or the Church’s central structures of governance — called for precisely nothing in this document. The document is a “Note” from a rather small office in the Roman Curia. The document’s specific recommendations do not necessarily reflect the settled views of the senior authorities of the Holy See; indeed, Fr. Federico Lombardi, the press spokesman for the Vatican, was noticeably circumspect in his comments on the document and its weight. As indeed he ought to have been.[b] The document doesn’t speak for the Pope, it doesn’t speak for “the Vatican,” and it doesn’t speak for the Catholic Church.[/b]
...
[url="http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/281140/pope-chaplain-ows-rubbish-george-weigel"]Source[/url][/quote]

Edited October 26, 2011 by kamiller42

[Jesus_lol]

Iraq Veterans against the War member Scott Olsen (Marine, 2 tours in Iraq) shot in the head by Oakland City Police at Occupy Oakland last night with Rubber or Gas canister. He has a fractured skull, swollen brain and is in critical condition.

[img]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/26/article-2053502-0E89468100000578-420_964x493.jpg[/img]


Here is the video of it happening. And then a cop in riot gear throwing a flashbang/smoke grenade on him and a bunch of people trying to help the injured man.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqNOPZLw03Q&feature=youtu.be[/media]

more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/oct/26/occupy-oakland-protests-live

Edited October 27, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1319675567' post='2327509']
Iraq Veterans against the War member Scott Olsen (Marine, 2 tours in Iraq) shot in the head by Oakland City Police at Occupy Oakland last night with Rubber or Gas canister. He has a fractured skull, swollen brain and is in critical condition.[/quote]
That's really strange. I was in SF recently, and the cab driver mentioned how peaceful Oakland is. It's so peaceful, many of his colleagues won't even drive in certain sections of the city. Just too peaceful.

I hope the guy recovers and learns a lesson his mom should have taught him: "Don't go hanging around the wrong crowd. You're going to get hurt."

J_Lol, would you ask your [url="http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/accusations-of-teen-runaway-sexual-activity-at-occupy-dallas/"]Occupy friends to keep their pantaloons on[/url]? Very unbecoming.

I've been watching some of these Occupy videos (They can be funnier than a sitcom.), and I find two things are really annoying:[list=1]
[*]The repeating of everything a speaker says. Very annoying.
[*]The hand waving instead of applauding. Silly.
[/list]
You can see some of that in this video where an econ "professor" tells the crowd "your parents were wrong; promiscuous sex is fine" and goes on how Marxism is viable and good. Yes, he's a loon.

[media='']http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHrIS_APUFs[/media]

Edited October 27, 2011 by kamiller42

[kamiller42]

Oh dear. Look what you've started.
[quote]
[img]http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/2011/10/26/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_backlash/frank-decker.top.jpg[/img]
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Occupy Wall Street protesters might say they represent 99% of the nation, but there's a growing number of Americans who are making it clear they are not part of the dissident crowd.

They call themselves the 53%...as in the 53% of Americans who pay federal income taxes. And they are making their voices heard on Tumblr blogs, Twitter and Facebook pages devoted to stories of personal responsibility and work ethic.
...
In early October, Eder created the Twitter hashtag #iamthe53, which has since been posted in hundreds of tweets as the backlash to Occupy Wall Street mounts.
"I would never identify myself with those occupying Wall Street," said Eder, 26, a business analyst in Washington D.C. "The frustration was born out of people claiming to speak for me who don't."
...
"What the 99% is missing is the element of personal responsibility," said Trevino, who is also vice president at the conservative Texas Public Policy Foundation. "The 53% want to bring that into the conversation."
More than a thousand people have sent in entries to the 53% site, which generally features their photo next to a piece of paper that outlines their views, as well as their struggles and work histories.
"I am responsible for my own destiny," writes one 34-year-old father of three. "I will succeed or fail because of me and me alone."
"I took jobs I didn't want. Why don't you?" says one poster to the protesters. "smell of elderberries it up and become part of the 53%."

[url="http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/26/news/economy/occupy_wall_street_backlash/index.htm"]Source[/url][/quote]
Ah, the sound of sanity. :-)

Edited October 27, 2011 by kamiller42

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1319678599' post='2327549']
Oh dear. Look what you've started.

Ah, the sound of sanity. :-)
[/quote]

Personal responsibility is excellent. It should go without saying. However, you seem to fall into the 86.23%. Those are the people who don't get the point.

I'd like to try to condense this issue into a clear, concise kernel so that people can stop wrapping themselves in ideological flags that, ultimately, mean nothing. Call yourself an OWS supporter? Call yourself a Tea Party member? Guess what. You're not that far off from the membership of the other contingent.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/KsKme.jpg[/img]

Holy c[acronym=''][/acronym]rap! You mean, THERE'S MIDDLE GROUND???? What kills me is the intellectual disingenuousness displayed by both sides here. People are too busy being "conservative" or "liberal" or whatever that they simply cannot have an honest discussion about an issue because they are afraid their party hat might get a wrinkle in it.

OWS: "DOWN WITH THE MAN!! *bongo played by dreadlocked hippie* CHE GUEVARA!! FREEDOM!!"
Tea Party: "DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT!! *snare drum played by white-wigged George Washington lookalike* THOMAS JEFFERSON!! FREEDOM!!"

Guess what, you're all shouting about the same freaking thing. It's called corporatism.

Want things to change? Then an honest, intellectual discussion about the issue in its totality has to be had by both sides and with no thought for political or ideological affiliation. There has to be compromise. And, then, there can be action.

Personal responsibility is wonderful when playing by the rules will always get you the expected outcome (i.e., you won't get screwed by the government). However, due to the corporatist structure of our government, personal responsibility does not guarantee people a fair shot at success. Does that mean that socialist-style intervention is the answer? NOOOOOOOO. What it means is that the loopholes, restrictions and kickbacks that hamstring the individual from that same personal success (which results from personal responsibility) have to be removed. If more people stopped acting like puppets with an elephant or donkey hand up the rear, and started actually TALKING about the issue, then maybe something would get done.

This discussion might be dominated in the media by freaks, but look past that. The argument against corporatism is not evidenced in totality by the OWS people, just as the argument for constitutionality is not evidenced in totality by the Tea Party. Don't let the media sleight of hand fool you. Don't be fooled into thinking that this is an argument between a bunch of people who look like Woodstock attendees and a bunch of people who look like Revolutionary War reenactors. Go deeper. Be honest.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1319742251' post='2327792']
Personal responsibility is excellent. It should go without saying. However, you seem to fall into the 86.23%. Those are the people who don't get the point.

Holy c[acronym=''][/acronym]rap! You mean, THERE'S MIDDLE GROUND???? What kills me is the intellectual disingenuousness displayed by both sides here. People are too busy being "conservative" or "liberal" or whatever that they simply cannot have an honest discussion about an issue because they are afraid their party hat might get a wrinkle in it.
[/quote]
[url="http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/diagramming-ows-vs-tea-party"]As this article[/url] and others have pointed out, the intersection of a single point proves very little. The beliefs and goals of the groups are very divergent. This diagram better illustrates the relationship.

[img]http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/sites/default/files/OWS%3ATP.jpg[/img]

If OWS was serious about corporatism, they would be occupying the Washington Mall and protest congress and the White House. Stories are breaking every day about the Dear Leader and congress handing out the cash to the companies headed by big donor friends.

I find the efforts to infuse legitimacy into the occupy protest long after the protest began interesting and entertaining.

[Aloysius]

"The reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong about what is right." -G.K. Chesterton

applies pretty well both to OWS and the Tea Partiers, IMO. and to fight corporatism you don't have to just occupy Washington, there are as many crooks in Washington as there are in Wall Street who are all in on the game.

[ardillacid]

If you owned your own business would you hire one of these hippies? Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

[arfink]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1319764784' post='2327989']
If you owned your own business would you hire one of these hippies? Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
[/quote]

After alot of the stuff I have read, I would say yes, but it would depend on which hippie we're talking about. Alot of good people are at these protests.
Unfortunately I have no money to speak of, and won't be doing any hiring any time soon. Which about does sum it up- I have no money, but I'm also not completely unemployed or homeless. So feel I have no real stake in any of this, instead being relegated to sitting on the sidelines and watching the tear gas spread.

About the only thing I do feel sure of is this: the protesters do actually have pretty good reasons for being there, despite being horribly disorganized and breaking alot of the rules. It's also clear that they have no idea how to fix the problem. What's equally clear is that nobody else has any good ideas either, or this would already be fixed.

TL;DR summary- 2012's political forecast: Overcast, with a moderate chance of rain and angry torch/pitchfork wielding leaderless mobs. I don't see this ending well for anyone if this doesn't get fixed very soon.

Edited October 28, 2011 by arfink

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' timestamp='1319742251' post='2327792']

Personal responsibility is excellent. It should go without saying. However, you seem to fall into the 86.23%. Those are the people who don't get the point.

I'd like to try to condense this issue into a clear, concise kernel so that people can stop wrapping themselves in ideological flags that, ultimately, mean nothing. Call yourself an OWS supporter? Call yourself a Tea Party member? Guess what. You're not that far off from the membership of the other contingent.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/KsKme.jpg[/img]

Holy c[acronym=''][/acronym]rap! You mean, THERE'S MIDDLE GROUND???? What kills me is the intellectual disingenuousness displayed by both sides here. People are too busy being "conservative" or "liberal" or whatever that they simply cannot have an honest discussion about an issue because they are afraid their party hat might get a wrinkle in it.

OWS: "DOWN WITH THE MAN!! *bongo played by dreadlocked hippie* CHE GUEVARA!! FREEDOM!!"
Tea Party: "DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT!! *snare drum played by white-wigged George Washington lookalike* THOMAS JEFFERSON!! FREEDOM!!"

Guess what, you're all shouting about the same freaking thing. It's called corporatism.

Want things to change? Then an honest, intellectual discussion about the issue in its totality has to be had by both sides and with no thought for political or ideological affiliation. There has to be compromise. And, then, there can be action.

Personal responsibility is wonderful when playing by the rules will always get you the expected outcome (i.e., you won't get screwed by the government). However, due to the corporatist structure of our government, personal responsibility does not guarantee people a fair shot at success. Does that mean that socialist-style intervention is the answer? NOOOOOOOO. What it means is that the loopholes, restrictions and kickbacks that hamstring the individual from that same personal success (which results from personal responsibility) have to be removed. If more people stopped acting like puppets with an elephant or donkey hand up the rear, and started actually TALKING about the issue, then maybe something would get done.

This discussion might be dominated in the media by freaks, but look past that. The argument against corporatism is not evidenced in totality by the OWS people, just as the argument for constitutionality is not evidenced in totality by the Tea Party. Don't let the media sleight of hand fool you. Don't be fooled into thinking that this is an argument between a bunch of people who look like Woodstock attendees and a bunch of people who look like Revolutionary War reenactors. Go deeper. Be honest.
[/quote]

I give you a billion props

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1319757361' post='2327953']
[url="http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/diagramming-ows-vs-tea-party"]As this article[/url] and others have pointed out, the intersection of a single point proves very little. The beliefs and goals of the groups are very divergent. This diagram better illustrates the relationship.

[img]http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/sites/default/files/OWS%3ATP.jpg[/img]

If OWS was serious about corporatism, they would be occupying the Washington Mall and protest congress and the White House. Stories are breaking every day about the Dear Leader and congress handing out the cash to the companies headed by big donor friends.

I find the efforts to infuse legitimacy into the occupy protest long after the protest began interesting and entertaining.
[/quote]

If you choose to focus solely on the differences and REFUSE to see the middle ground this thing only fosters division.

that and I haven't heard that increased gov't regulation is the answer these people are proposing. I've heard people accusing others pegging their hopes on the government, but I have not seen that to be the coherent battle cry of this movement. It's still largely unorganized, and beaver dam if you only focus on the differences and REFUSE to find the middle ground and BUILD off that with honest and fruitful dialogue we will NEVER get anywhere.

Of course dismissing the "other" side wholesale and labeling them as crazy Marxists is the bad arse, no nonsense thing to do. Good for you. Show those liberal wishy washy hippies that you can't be moved by their fluffy rhetoric! Don't tread on me! blah blah blah

[Marie-Therese]

I, uh...wow.

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1319757361' post='2327953']
[url="http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/diagramming-ows-vs-tea-party"]As this article[/url] and others have pointed out, the intersection of a single point proves very little. The beliefs and goals of the groups are very divergent. This diagram better illustrates the relationship.

[img]http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/sites/default/files/OWS%3ATP.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

I'm not sure if you actually read what I wrote, or if you're deliberately being obtuse. I'm going to hope for the former. So, your statement here is...well, I can't even really determine what it is you're trying to say. That the Tea Party and the OWS protesters are two groups vastly separated by differing opinions and ideologies? If so, thanks, but I already knew that. You cannot reduce groups of people to two lines in an X shape and then say, oh look, nothing to see here because the X only has one tiny point of intersection. The point is that that point of intersection IS THE ENTIRE POINT. I'm not expecting Tea Partiers and OWS hippies to start frequenting the same social circles. Of COURSE they have different goals in mind. The thing that most people fail to comprehend is that this is not a discussion that is limited to two polarities. There are vast numbers of people who might not agree with the goals of the OWS group, or support their tactics, but who are glad that the discussion about corporatism has been raised in a wider scope of conversation because it's a conversation that is vital to the survival of the country. This isn't merely some divergence in economic theory. The government is going to fail, and with it the economy of the strongest country in the world. The world economy will follow. Just because some bunch of emo morons decided to take it upon themselves to protest doesn't mean that the topic is illegitimate. Gah, why do I feel like I am shouting at wind?? I FEEL LIKE I'M TAKING CRAZY PILLS.

You might notice that I said this in my previous post:

[quote]Want things to change? Then an honest, intellectual discussion about the issue in its totality has to be had by both sides and with no thought for political or ideological affiliation. There has to be [u][b]compromise[/b][/u]. And, then, there can be action. [/quote]

Compromise!! Compromise!! Two groups with different goals tackle same subject, wat do?? It's so convenient to try to assign this to a two group argument. However, those are the two groups in the news. Those of us in the middle, those who want to have a serious discussion about the political ramifications of the corporatist government, are being treated as trolls or simpletons simply because the OWS people are idiots. If only more people could understand that life and politics and economics aren't just nice X shaped MSPaint pictures with some pretty blue and red thrown in for effect. People are complex and decision making isn't linear.


[quote]If OWS was serious about corporatism, they would be occupying the Washington Mall and protest congress and the White House. Stories are breaking every day about the Dear Leader and congress handing out the cash to the companies headed by big donor friends.[/quote]

Yeah, and? Who says that the topic of corporatism is completely represented by OWS? It's obviously not.

[quote]I find the efforts to infuse legitimacy into the occupy protest long after the protest began interesting and entertaining.
[/quote]

I don't give three cr[acronym=''][/acronym]aps about the protest itself, and I have zero interest in trying to "infuse legitimacy" into anything. Fact is, people who are too busy looking at their own reflection in their shiny partisan buttons and admiring how well they represent "conservative values" or "progressive thought" are just as misguided as that bunch of idiots on Wall Street. What concerns me is that our country is on the precipice of failure, and people are going to ride their party tickets all the way to the bottom because they were too proud to condescend to a discussion, or to look for ways to initiate important conversations.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1319768099' post='2328010']

After alot of the stuff I have read, I would say yes, but it would depend on which hippie we're talking about. Alot of good people are at these protests.
Unfortunately I have no money to speak of, and won't be doing any hiring any time soon. Which about does sum it up- I have no money, but I'm also not completely unemployed or homeless. So feel I have no real stake in any of this, instead being relegated to sitting on the sidelines and watching the tear gas spread.

About the only thing I do feel sure of is this: the protesters do actually have pretty good reasons for being there, despite being horribly disorganized and breaking alot of the rules. It's also clear that they have no idea how to fix the problem. What's equally clear is that nobody else has any good ideas either, or this would already be fixed.

TL;DR summary- 2012's political forecast: Overcast, with a moderate chance of rain and angry torch/pitchfork wielding leaderless mobs. I don't see this ending well for anyone if this doesn't get fixed very soon.[/quote]I will take.your name.so.I.never accidentely invest in your.company.

I know some people who I would hire if I owned a business, and they are all working 80 plus hours a week. Not hobo-ing about new York

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1319677875' post='2327539']
That's really strange. I was in SF recently, and the cab driver mentioned how peaceful Oakland is. It's so peaceful, many of his colleagues won't even drive in certain sections of the city. Just too peaceful.

I hope the guy recovers and learns a lesson his mom should have taught him: "Don't go hanging around the wrong crowd. You're going to get hurt."
[/quote]


Did you just say that it was that marine's fault that he got shot in the face and then flashbanged and nearly killed while peacefully protesting? because he hangs out with the wrong people? whats next, girl gets raped "oh well, maybe she should wear longer sleeves next time"?? what the hell.

also, NONE of the protesters deserve to be treated the way the police are treating them. NONE. it is starting to look like the videos from the middle east last spring.

Also, next time you see a marine, you should tell them your opinion on what happened to their brother in oakland. i suspect your family will be emptying bank accounts and mortgaging their houses to cover your medical bills.

[url="http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/10/marine-navy-army-and-airforce-vets-and-police-vow-to-protect-innocent-protesters.html?fdindex=wsst234"]http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2011/10/marine-navy-army-and-airforce-vets-and-police-vow-to-protect-innocent-protesters.html?fdindex=wsst234[/url]



and here is the footage of scott before he got shot, standing still, no rocks being thrown. [url="http://dailybail.com/home/video-marine-scott-olsen-moments-before-he-was-shot-by-the-o.html"]http://dailybail.com/home/video-marine-scott-olsen-moments-before-he-was-shot-by-the-o.html[/url]