Occupy Wall Street Baloney

[Adrestia]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1320070890' post='2329342']
I know, it was a stretch, wasn't it?


Anyways, I just want to reiterate that in no shape or form is our Pope endorsing these protests...
[/quote]

For the record, I do agree that our Pope never actually endorsed the OWS protests.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1320066023' post='2329313']

Fr. Reese seems to think the Pope is a liberal Democrat, he correctly criticizes people who think he is a Republican but he makes the exact same mistake. Earth to Americans the Pope is not an American politician!!!!!!!

Nor is he an economist. However it is true that unregulated capitalism is about as far away from "a people-centered" economics as possible. Pure capitalism has profits at the center. A truly ethical (and Catholic) economic system has goals that revolve around human beings, their material and spiritual welfare.
[/quote]
If your business is not geared toward profit, you will end up harming all the employees when you go out of business. If it will pursue profits at all costs, it will cease to be capitalism, because the current system works best for that. Capitalism must be based in the principle of non-aggression or it will cease to be capitalism.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1319902779' post='2328606']
When I read the posts written by Marie-Therese I never got the sense that she was trying to suggest that the difference you point out is insignificant. To me, it read like she was trying to focus on the fact that the problems identifies by each side can have a common solution. IMHO, it would take a great deal of humility for for a Tea Party Patriot to actually listen to an OWS Protester with the goal of finding common ground instead of finding areas to punch holes in their argument (and vice-versa).
[/quote]
Basically, I suppose I'm just a bit cynical about actually being able to find much in the way of "common ground" with those socialistic folks calling for class warfare and various Marxist measures by the government as the solution to all our ills. And this is just me, but somehow I get the impression that those engaging in public nudity and sex, defecating on cop cars, and screaming for anarchy, have much interest in sitting down and rationally discussing ideas.

There's a lot of talk on here about common ground and compromise, but I haven't seen much as to what kind of "middle ground" compromise they think we should pursue.

[arfink]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1320084471' post='2329418']
Basically, I suppose I'm just a bit cynical about actually being able to find much in the way of "common ground" with those socialistic folks calling for class warfare and various Marxist measures by the government as the solution to all our ills. And this is just me, but somehow I get the impression that those engaging in public nudity and sex, defecating on cop cars, and screaming for anarchy, have much interest in sitting down and rationally discussing ideas.

There's a lot of talk on here about common ground and compromise, but I haven't seen much as to what kind of "middle ground" compromise they think we should pursue.
[/quote]

Clearly, the middle ground between going outside to POOP!!! on cop cars and staying indoors with a real toilet is a porta potty. Someone get those folks a porta potty!

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1320062724' post='2329296']

i think you ignored kamiller's response to this... if NPR says the POPE is behind something, I usually ignore them...

This isn't an official statement from the Vatican or the Pope.... (but it's a given that the Pope is totally against GREED)
[/quote]

actually i did respond to it, right above you.

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1320068052' post='2329324']

no, his friend addressed it...

[/quote]

is that not allowed? am i not allowed to quote from sources that have informed my opinions in response to others? would it be passe for example, to go ask a priest about a topic, and post their thoughts?(because that happens occasionally). Since this isn't a one-on-one grudge match between me and Kamiller, but rather a general discussion, i will respond to him as i feel like.

What actually happened, was i read his reply, and realized that his post did have some true objections to mine, but I wasnt sure as to the extent, so i figured it would be prudent to find out for sure. Yes, Kamiller was technically correct about most of his points, but as my quoted reply says, somewhat missed the point of the article

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1320070890' post='2329342']
I know, it was a stretch, wasn't it?


Anyways, I just want to reiterate that in no shape or form is our Pope endorsing these protests...
[/quote]

Just to be clear, i did not say that the Pope endorses the protests in my original post. It just says that he supports [i]some [/i]of the [i]ideas([/i]socioeconomic, etc)[i] behind[/i] the Occupy protests. Which no one seems to have refuted.

I havent seen any articles or posts about the Pope's official opinion on the protests themselves.




[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1320084471' post='2329418']
Basically, I suppose I'm just a bit cynical about actually being able to find much in the way of "common ground" with those socialistic folks calling for class warfare and various Marxist measures by the government as the solution to all our ills. And this is just me, but somehow I get the impression that those engaging in public nudity and sex, defecating on cop cars, and screaming for anarchy, have much interest in sitting down and rationally discussing ideas.
[/quote]

Not like it will make a difference, Soc, but those protesters arent all socialists, hippys, nude, fornicating, or publically defecating. in fact, the vast majority of them are not. no need to judge the whole movement by some of the members who have managed to get on TV(what a surprise that the cameras would focus on them only), especially since the movement has grown exponentially, far beyond the original group.

this would be akin to me saying none of Ron Paul's ideas have any merit, because there were a lot of racist signs at Tea Party rallies, and some of the well dressed people there were taunting and mocking disabled people(yup)

[quote name='arfink' timestamp='1320084691' post='2329421']

Clearly, the middle ground between going outside to POOP!!!!!!!!! on cop cars and staying indoors with a real toilet is a porta potty. Someone get those folks a porta potty!
[/quote]

Again, judging the many by the few, and judging the message by the mouth it comes out of is kinda lame.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Jesus_lol

[MIKolbe]

[img]http://images1.dailykos.com/i/user/2722/TMW2011-11-02colorKOS.png[/img]

[Papist]

Is this one of their demands?

[img]http://www.catholicvote.org/discuss/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/kill-your-parents.jpg[/img]

[dominicansoul]

I just want to reiterate that in no shape or form does the Occupy Wall Street protests have Papal endorsement...

I believe he was brought up in the media just to do that, to give some sort of legitimacy to these protests that have no organization and no clear message. Funny how liberals will play the Pope when they need him, but bash him, the Church, and Christians in general most of the time...

[arfink]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1320107963' post='2329575']
Again, judging the many by the few, and judging the message by the mouth it comes out of is kinda lame.
[/quote]

My statement is a subtle form of speech not understood by many on the internet and which is more commonly known in the real world as a joke.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1320074713' post='2329362']
If your business is not geared toward profit, you will end up harming all the employees when you go out of business. If it will pursue profits at all costs, it will cease to be capitalism, because the current system works best for that. Capitalism must be based in the principle of non-aggression or it will cease to be capitalism.
[/quote]

I think the issue is that a truly ethical economic system has to be revolve around profits AND the human person. Profits are required, yes, but they are a means to an end, not the end itself. In pure capitalism there is no way of evaluating an economic situation morally. It doesn't take into account, did it affect the environment, did it poison the workers, were the workers paid a living wage, were they treated with dignity by their managers, is the product ethically good? If you manufacture condoms and abortion pills and turn a profit, then, from a purely capitalistic perspective, that's good. If you manufacture rosaries and pews and lose money, then that's bad.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1320158270' post='2329816']

I think the issue is that a truly ethical economic system has to be revolve around profits AND the human person. Profits are required, yes, but they are a means to an end, not the end itself. In pure capitalism there is no way of evaluating an economic situation morally. It doesn't take into account, did it affect the environment, did it poison the workers, were the workers paid a living wage, were they treated with dignity by their managers, is the product ethically good? If you manufacture condoms and abortion pills and turn a profit, then, from a purely capitalistic perspective, that's good. If you manufacture rosaries and pews and lose money, then that's bad.
[/quote]
It's a good point. I agree that capitalism is limited in its moral position.

There is a flaw: Not every job produces enough to earn a livable wage. There are options, of course. The owner could subsidize the jobs out of the other workers' salaries and his own. This might bring the wage up to livable, but there is a limit even to this approach. The other option is to simply not fill the jobs that wouldn't pay a livable wage. This is what happens when the government sets wage rate floors. I'd rather work two jobs to make a livable wage than not have one at all because no one was allowed to pay me. Also off the table (thanks to regulations) is a low wage rate, but room and board and food. Or straight cash without any payroll taxes going to government programs like Social Security. There are healthcare insurance laws(and tax breaks for paying for insurance--there's plenty of unintended consequences to that), so no one can get a cash job at a restaurant and then cut a deal with a doctor for healthcare in exchange for work. It all must be monitored by the government in order to make sure we don't get taken advantage of. It's great, except it causes unemployment.

[Theoketos]

I would like to add that while many of the actions and even some of the principles of are incompatible with the moral law, their stand against greed is good. This critique is shared by Benedict's magisterium.

Also large corporations have sold out the American worker in coo-hots with our own government.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Theoketos' timestamp='1320165887' post='2329850']
I would like to add that while many of the actions and even some of the principles of are incompatible with the moral law, their stand against greed is good. This critique is shared by Benedict's magisterium.
[/quote]
Wanting to punish the rich simply for being rich (as many of the occupiers seem to want) - rather than focusing on just the government bailouts - and demanding various government handouts for oneself, seems more an expression of the deadly sin of envy than a truly righteous opposition to greed. Greed is a personal vice, and cannot be stamped out by government action.

Quite frankly, I have no desire to hurt the rich, as they are potential employers.

[Jesus_lol]

I dont think forcing the rich to follow the same rules as the poor, for the same penalties is "hurting" them, its just fair.

[dominicansoul]

i don't think that's their message, Jlol... throughout this thread, many of you seem to believe these occupy protestors actually have an organized, intelligent point...

to further convolute their message:

[url="http://www.lifenews.com/2011/11/02/planned-parenthood-teams-up-with-occupy-wall-st-movement/"]http://www.lifenews....ll-st-movement/[/url]


Planned Parenthood? really....? I mean, aren't they like the biggest corporation that has the democratic party, especially obama, deep in their multi-million/billion dollar pockets????





[size=1]edited for misspelling[/size]

Edited November 3, 2011 by dominicansoul