stevil Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 [quote name='Oremoose' timestamp='1319638996' post='2327264'] Just because it's an oxymoron does not makes it untrue. I do not act with the thought of reward in heaven, When I try to act in a selfless manner I only think of the good I am doing for others and how it's them. Also I point at everyone (including myself) and say they are sinners. No human is perfect and letting people know thier errors is one of the best ways to help people better themselves. And all I ask of gays is, not that they don't love, but that they don't show that thier love and act on thier love as if it is equal to nongays. Why becuase I find it distrurbing since it is not natural. [/quote] What business is it of your what they get up to in the bedroom? You don't get to witness it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319623997' post='2327196'] I'm OK with incest as long as both parties are willing and of appropriate age. I am not one to judge [/quote] well kudos for you to follow your logic all the way to its ridiculous conclusion. as to not sidestep the point entirely, the church does not condemn people for loving each other. That's total bs. The bulk of society, religious and non, except of course the super-enlightened people like yourself, place restrictions on what is appropriate sexual behavior, even if they are not as rigid as the guidelines of the church. Are people against pedophilia saying it's wrong to love children? No. Nor are the people who are against incest (pretty much everyone except people like you) libeled as anti-love. so please refrain from using this "anti-love" rhetoric. It's dishonest and misleading. I'll ignore your "judge lest you not be judge" rant because that had nothing to do with what I was saying really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kamiller42 Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319623997' post='2327196'] Why can't some Christians keep their opinions to themselves and simply lead a virtuous life rather than worrying about the "sins" of strangers? Judge not least ye be judged. Read your book, take on its teachings and live your life, not the life of others! [/quote] As the secular poem said, "Because no man is an island." You do not live in a vacuum.There is nothing which can happen in private that does not affect what happens in public. The Bible does not condemn the judgment of behaviors. It condemns the judgment of individuals. The behaviors you listed are worthy of condemnation no matter who is doing it. Edited October 26, 2011 by kamiller42 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 [quote] Why can't some Christians keep their opinions to themselves and simply lead a virtuous life rather than worrying about the "sins" of strangers? Judge not least ye be judged. Read your book, take on its teachings and live your life, not the life of others! [/quote] "He who is quick to condemn others demonstrates that he has never truly stood in the presence of the Living God." -Coptic Pope Kyrillos VI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319623997' post='2327196'] I am most certainly OK with polygamy, adultery and fornication. Although of course I hope that my wife doesn't cheat on me, I would like to feel that our intimacy is somewhat special. [/quote] You're okay with adultery except when you're the victim? So it's only okay if other people suffer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1319658224' post='2327394'] Nor are the people who are against incest (pretty much everyone except people like you) libeled as anti-love. [/quote] There certainly is a social stigma around this. Probably somewhat similar to the anti gay movement. Just because an individual finds it repulsive, they somehow feel they have the right to impose restrictions on others. I've seen an Australian documentary about a Father and Daughter that hooked up and had children. The children turned out OK. The Father and Daughter had not lived together and did not have any relationship during the daughter's child life. When they finally met up as adults, they didn't have an internal taboo about each other, didn't really see each other as Father and Daughter. They fell in love and had kids. The government found out about it and made them promise not to have sex anymore because it is against the law. I feel this is a stupid law. The situation is not going to happen very often, people generally don't fall romantically for their parents. With isolated incidents e.g. not from generation to generation, we do not see issues of birth deformities. This is non of government's business, they should butt out. [quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1319658224' post='2327394'] so please refrain from using this "anti-love" rhetoric. It's dishonest and misleading. [/quote] In my opinion it is anti love, almost a hate group. This is how I feel, you have not convinced me otherwise. I do feel as homosexuality becomes much more accepted in society that religious organisations which villify it, they paint themselves as the villains. They can easily appear to be a hate focused group. Very few people want to belong to hate groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1319665138' post='2327443'] You're okay with adultery except when you're the victim? So it's only okay if other people suffer? [/quote] I wouldn't consider the adulterer as necessarily the wrong doer and the faithful partner as necessarily the victim. Would need to look at each case on their own merits. Adultery could merely be a symptom, not necessarily the cause of a bad relationship. Maybe the adultery was the wakeup call the marriage needed to make the ultimate decision to either sort themselves out or part ways. Without knowing the details I would not dare make a judgement. When I say I am OK with it, that is what I mean. Not that I would encourage it. I am just not judgmental. There are even some people that choose to live in an open relationship and have other sexual partners. This isn't my life choice, but I am not the right person to tell these people that they are making the wrong decisions. I have not walked in their shoes. They are best qualified to make their own decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrestia Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319706377' post='2327673'] I wouldn't consider the adulterer as necessarily the wrong doer and the faithful partner as necessarily the victim. Would need to look at each case on their own merits. Adultery could merely be a symptom, not necessarily the cause of a bad relationship. Maybe the adultery was the wakeup call the marriage needed to make the ultimate decision to either sort themselves out or part ways. Without knowing the details I would not dare make a judgement. When I say I am OK with it, that is what I mean. Not that I would encourage it. I am just not judgmental. There are even some people that choose to live in an open relationship and have other sexual partners. This isn't my life choice, but I am not the right person to tell these people that they are making the wrong decisions. I have not walked in their shoes. They are best qualified to make their own decisions. [/quote] So you're not OK with it; but you will not call a spade a spade for fear of appearing judgmental. IMHO, that's weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319706377' post='2327673'] I wouldn't consider the adulterer as necessarily the wrong doer and the faithful partner as necessarily the victim. Would need to look at each case on their own merits. Adultery could merely be a symptom, not necessarily the cause of a bad relationship. Maybe the adultery was the wakeup call the marriage needed to make the ultimate decision to either sort themselves out or part ways. Without knowing the details I would not dare make a judgement. When I say I am OK with it, that is what I mean. Not that I would encourage it. I am just not judgmental. There are even some people that choose to live in an open relationship and have other sexual partners. This isn't my life choice, but I am not the right person to tell these people that they are making the wrong decisions. I have not walked in their shoes. They are best qualified to make their own decisions. [/quote] So what you are saying here, is that there is no such thing as adultery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 There are two sides in this debate those who's morals are dictated by the world and the those by the Church. The morality of 'whatever one or two consenting adults want to do as long as it does not harm others is fine' is worldy. And can include far more perverse things than just porn and sodomy. Those who argue in support of Homosexual unions on what basis would you argue against a brother and sister who cannot have children from also marrying? Or a mother and adult son or grandfather and adult granddaughter If you are against such unions how are you not hypocritical? They are two consenting adults harming no one, If government cannot enforce morality then any law that violates the new morality of 'whatever one or two consenting adults want to do as long as it does not harm others is fine' including laws against incest should be thrown out. But most rational persons won't argue that. They will however have a hypocritical stance allow for other perversities that should logically also allow for things like incest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rizz_loves_jesus Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1319731556' post='2327747'] There are two sides in this debate those who's morals are dictated by the world and the those by the Church. The morality of 'whatever one or two consenting adults want to do as long as it does not harm others is fine' is worldy. And can include far more perverse things than just porn and sodomy.[/quote] No one is saying incest or homosexuality is "fine." We're saying it just shouldn't be illegal because it's a moral issue, not a legal one. Leave it to the church to deal with morality, and leave it to the government to deal with legality. Just because something is morally reprehensible doesn't mean it should be illegal. [quote]Those who argue in support of Homosexual unions on what basis would you argue against a brother and sister who cannot have children from also marrying? Or a mother and adult son or grandfather and adult granddaughter If you are against such unions how are you not hypocritical? They are two consenting adults harming no one, If government cannot enforce morality then any law that violates the new morality of 'whatever one or two consenting adults want to do as long as it does not harm others is fine' including laws against incest should be thrown out. But most rational persons won't argue that. They will however have a hypocritical stance allow for other perversities that should logically also allow for things like incest. [/quote] If it doesn't interfere with rights outlined in either the U.S. Constitution or the constitution of whichever state you live in, it's not the government's place to be dealing with it. Incest is absolutely disgusting and should be discouraged in society, I agree. But incest is not mentioned in the Constitution and therefore the government has no place making laws concerning it. It's pretty simple. Edited October 27, 2011 by rizz_loves_jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1319731556' post='2327747'] There are two sides in this debate those who's morals are dictated by the world and the those by the Church. The morality of 'whatever one or two consenting adults want to do as long as it does not harm others is fine' is worldy. And can include far more perverse things than just porn and sodomy. Those who argue in support of Homosexual unions on what basis would you argue against a brother and sister who cannot have children from also marrying? Or a mother and adult son or grandfather and adult granddaughter If you are against such unions how are you not hypocritical? They are two consenting adults harming no one, If government cannot enforce morality then any law that violates the new morality of 'whatever one or two consenting adults want to do as long as it does not harm others is fine' including laws against incest should be thrown out. But most rational persons won't argue that. They will however have a hypocritical stance allow for other perversities that should logically also allow for things like incest. [/quote] If the criteria is "consenting" and "adult", would not this demand that the gov'ment require a test/evaluation in order for be certified adult. Then the gov'ment could have control of who gets to do what with whom. I shutter. [quote name='rizz_loves_jesus' timestamp='1319734582' post='2327756'] No one is saying incest or homosexuality is "fine." We're saying it just shouldn't be illegal because it's a moral issue, not a legal one. Leave it to the church to deal with morality, and leave it to the government to deal with legality. Just because something is morally reprehensible doesn't mean it should be illegal. If it doesn't interfere with rights outlined in either the U.S. Constitution or the constitution of whichever state you live in, it's not the government's place to be dealing with it. Incest is absolutely disgusting and should be discouraged in society, I agree. But incest is not mentioned in the Constitution and therefore the government has no place making laws concerning it. It's pretty simple. [/quote] Careful. The Constitution does not specifically mention a right to privacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 [quote name='Adrestia' timestamp='1319716179' post='2327694'] So you're not OK with it; but you will not call a spade a spade for fear of appearing judgmental. IMHO, that's weak. [/quote] My stance is not based on fear. I am genuine with regards to not wanting to judge others and to see the world as much more complex than the black and white of right and wrong. As long as society can function then the government has done its job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1319737862' post='2327776'] If the criteria is "consenting" and "adult", would not this demand that the gov'ment require a test/evaluation in order for be certified adult. Then the gov'ment could have control of who gets to do what with whom. I shutter. [/quote] Yes, the government enforces that you register births, it then uses birth certificates to assess age and perception of adulthood. It is commonly used for eligibility to drive, drink alcohol, eligibility for paid work etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319738771' post='2327781'] Yes, the government enforces that you register births, it then uses birth certificates to assess age and perception of adulthood. It is commonly used for eligibility to drive, drink alcohol, eligibility for paid work etc [/quote] Would not the mental stability be a factor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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