Rights Vs. Morals

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1319169426' post='2324514']


just because you feel offended doesn't make my statement any less valid. Being a proponent of a small government while pushing for government involvement as morality police is simply hypocritical.


note, this does not apply to stuff like murder, abortion, etc as they are not simply immoral things, but actions that take the safety, life and rights away from another person. Government/police do have a duty to intervene in those cases.
[/quote]

It's not that I was offended. I merely pointed out the post was flamebait. It had nothing to actually do with the post it was suppose to be in response to and it was deceitful. In all your responses you've twisted my words and or put words in my mouth. I don't want people to starve and I never advocated the arrest of those who have sex outside of marriage or own pornography. These are [b]your[/b] strawmen.

My postion is not hypocritical. State and local governments (aka: small government) can and have a duty to oppose sex outside of marriage by encouraging chastity, and they can oppose pornography by restricting and/or banning the sale of it and/or it's production.

[Selah]

[quote]
Porn affects the mental health of thousands...
[/quote]

This quote seriously needs to be blown up and put on a billboard...somehow I don't think people get it...

[Socrates]

What are rights and where do they come from?

If you deny God, the only answer is from the government, or the state. If the state grants rights, it can just as easily take them away.
And by this logic, rights signify nothing objective, but only arbitrary desires.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Socrates

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1319236512' post='2324875']

It's not that I was offended. I merely pointed out the post was flamebait. It had nothing to actually do with the post it was suppose to be in response to and it was deceitful. In all your responses you've twisted my words and or put words in my mouth. I don't want people to starve and I never advocated the arrest of those who have sex outside of marriage or own pornography. These are [b]your[/b] strawmen.

My postion is not hypocritical. State and local governments (aka: small government) can and have a duty to oppose sex outside of marriage by encouraging chastity, and they can oppose pornography by restricting and/or banning the sale of it and/or it's production.
[/quote]

I actually said i was kinda responding to you, because advocating a reduction in government power while pushing for further government involvement in personal lives is a fairly common thing in conservative circles. Sure, if you take "small govt" to only refer to giving more power to local governments rather than a general reduction in government influence/power(which is the more common outlook) then it is not as hypocritical. however, as small areas in the states already can enforce laws like you are talking about, and since you didnt say anything to the contrary, I am assuming that you would like those to include all of the USA, which makes it a reference to federal powers, rather than municipal, etc.

And, you will note, i never said you want people to starve. however, if you dont want government to use your tax money to help feed people who are starving, but think it is totally ok to use them to enforce morality, then that shows a clear measure of what is considered important. Obviously a dislike of govt social programs is not just about a belief that govt involvement is a bad/inefficient thing, if on the other hand you would support government creating morality police.

[quote] I don't want people to starve and I never advocated the arrest of those who have sex outside of marriage or own pornography. These are [b]your[/b] strawmen.




[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1318988461' post='2323435']
[...]There is no right to have sex outside marriage. There is no right to porn. There is no right to be immoral. The government is duty bound as a servent of God to enforce natural and moral law and to oppose those things which are counter to nature and morality.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Government enforces laws by fining, and incarceration. Government has a really hard time "encouraging" things. you are clearly posting here that you would support government enforcing Catholic morality on citizens. a logical reading of your posts suggests exactly that. because when things are made illegal, then people start getting arrested.

[stevil]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1319245053' post='2324909']
What are rights and where do they come from?

If you deny God, the only answer is from the government, or the state. If the state grants rights, it can just as easily take them away.
And by this logic, rights signify nothing objective, but only arbitrary desires.
[/quote]
We are all born with the right to do what so ever we choose.

An authority with dominion comes along and puts boundaries onto the way we behave and participate within our society, they do not give our rights, but instead restrict. In this way they start violating our rights.

In my opinion a good government understands that they are taking away its citizen's rights and treads carefully so as to minimalise this as much as possible.
Good governments, in my opinion, are focused on providing rules to encourage a functional society, whilst treating people's rights with the utmost of respect and not infringing on them unless absolutely necessary.

For example, governments tend to remove the right to kill people. When people go around killing each other we don't end up with a functional society, people become too focused on vendettas and vigilante behaviour rather than being productive and beneficial for society.
Governments also tend to remove the right to steal. A society does not perform well were people are stealing from each other. There are real social reasons driving governments to intervene and violate these rights.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319222128' post='2324778']Prostitution should most certainly be legal. It is in my country and we haven't noticed our society degrade because of it. Most likely things have improved, with government providing protection to sex workers and gaining taxes from this lucrative industry.[/quote]
i don't know where you're from, do you mind saying?

to your point, even in countries where prostitution is legal, the illegal prostitution of children/minors still exists and is a huge problem.

[stevil]

NZ

[Lil Red]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319223365' post='2324789']Porn is great, it demystifies sex and an aspect of the opposite sex that a young adult may have insecurities about. It can also be used to spice up bedroom activities for a couple whom feel things are getting a bit stale. It also provides a means of income for many people.
I would however be interested in hearing your view on how it can be detrimental to society, as this might give me something to consider on this topic.[/quote]
a lot of porn comes from foreign countries...where they don't worry about pesky rules about who is a minor and who is not...many times children under 16 are used in porn magazines and films. the income doesn't go to the 'actors', it goes to those who make the films...directors and producers. porn is detrimental to those in the industry...mental & physical health problems abound. porn is also detrimental to those watching it, secular studies have shown that those who use porn on a regular basis find it more difficult to be attracted to a living person. porn also is a huge money maker for gangs, who find that the penalties concerning employing underage girls is far less than trafficking drugs (which is a growing problem in the U.S.) while i was looking for more information into prostitution in New Zealand, I came across [url="http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/11-10-2006/84991-child_prostitution-0/"]this article[/url] (not sure of their sources, though):
[quote]Child prostitution is a global phenomenon these days. Children are mostly trafficked for sexual exploitation from Eastern Europe, North Africa, and Ukraine. Western Europe, the United States, United Arab Emirates and New Zealand are among the major consumers. Russia is both a supplier and producer. Sociologists put the blame on the low standard of living. Psychiatrists say pedophiles are to blame. According to Lyudmila Narusova, a member of the Upper House of Russian Parliament, the problem stems from a lack of comprehensive legislation on the web sites.[/quote]
this has nothing really to do with religious arguments (though i do believe in the religious arguments) and everything to do with a just society.

as for spicing it up in the bedroom, perhaps if people waited until marriage to have sex, they wouldn't need constant spicing up the bedroom.

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319222128' post='2324778']Prostitution should most certainly be legal. It is in my country and we haven't noticed our society degrade because of it. Most likely things have improved, with government providing protection to sex workers and gaining taxes from this lucrative industry.[/quote]
like i said, i'm not really well-versed in all this, but i did a little digging about prostitution in New Zealand, and found [url="http://www.maxim.org.nz/index.cfm/searchmaxim/article?id=1502&post=1&srchWords=prostitution%20reform"]this link[/url] from a think-tank in NZ (i think it's a conservative think-tank based upon their 'About Us' section) where they speak about the Prostitution Reform Act failing to deliver on its promises:
[quote]Prostitution is, by its very nature, harmful. When passing the PRA, emphasis was placed on the protection it would offer prostitutes, with the objective that the Act "promotes the welfare and occupational health and safety of sex workers." The report shows that the law has neither reduced nor increased the numbers of those involved; its advocates are therefore claiming that it is working. However, this fails to acknowledge the myriad difficulties involved with it. Although the report suggests that the numbers of those working in the industry "have remained stable" in the period since 2003, accurate figures are notoriously difficult to obtain. Community workers dealing with those on the street also suggest a different story, claiming that the numbers they see are rising. While only a small proportion of prostitutes work on the streets, they are at a proportionately greater risk of harm than those working from indoor premises. Despite the Act, sex workers report being robbed, raped, physically assaulted, threatened or held against their will.

Under-age prostitutes are always in particular danger of harm and it has been suggested that the legality of the industry means it is now harder for the Police to be stringent in finding under-age workers. Encouragingly, the report sets out "a model of best practice for assisting sex workers to exit the industry," and it acknowledges the harm done by street-based sex work to those involved in it and calls for them to be "encouraged to either move to a safer, indoor setting, or leave sex work altogether." The Committee highlights the role money plays as a driving factor for people working in prostitution, and it should be a real cause for concern that people might be driven to prostitution simply to make ends meet. In its survey, 73 percent of sex workers said they worked in the sex industry to "pay household expenses," and nearly a third of them gave "no other income" as the reason they began prostitution. Disturbingly, significant numbers cited "support for alcohol or other drug use" as the reason they began prostitution; this was the reason for over half of street-based workers.

It is no great surprise that the Act has done little to protect those engaging in such a vulnerable and dangerous activity. It is meaningless to talk about choice in the face of an industry with so much abuse, addiction and mental health issues associated with it. We have a duty as a society to do more. Prosecuting those using prostitutes and helping those trapped in the industry to get out of it would be better than pretending that all of those involved are there through "choice."[/quote]

lastly, i would just like to say that prostitution goes back to times where women (and children) are treated like chattel, like objects to be bought and sold like furniture. i thought that as an enlightened society we want to prevent situations where women feel like they have to sell themselves in order to provide for their families or themselves, not ignore those situations don't exist? i'm sharing a link that is [url="http://people.exeter.ac.uk/watupman/undergrad/aac/anti.htm"]arguing against legalizing prostitution[/url], but it has a few bad words and some graphic language (i.e., adults only should be reading it!). Two quotes I'd like to share from that link:
[quote]Legally able to sell her body, albeit for a short period of time, women become commodities. Commodification of women not only leads to women becoming second class citizens, but it also normalises the concept of a human being becoming the property of someone else. For Hughes, there is no difference between trafficking which is by now universally recognised as a severe violation of human rights, and prostitution, which in Europe is widely tolerated, occasionally partly legal, and in the case of Holland, entirely so: "Prostitution is consuming thousands of girls and women and reaping enormous profits for organized crime in post-communist countries. In addition, each year, several hundred thousand women are trafficked from Eastern European countries for prostitution in sex industry centers all over the world. The practices are extremely oppressive and incompatible with universal standards of human rights. The sex trade is a form of contemporary slavery and all indications predict its growth and expansion into the 21st century." [/quote]
[quote]The European Parliament reports that police do not expect the sex trade to grow substantially in the Nordic region, however, the Swedish government hopes "By prohibiting the purchase of sexual services, prostitution and its damaging effects can be counteracted more effectively than hitherto. The government is however of the view that criminalisation can never be more than a supplementary element in the efforts to reduce prostitution and cannot be a substitute for broader social exertions." Hughes would agree that there is a wider social context, however she says "Above all, state bodies and non-governmental organizations should understand that prostitution is a demand market created by men who buy and sell women's sexuality for their own profit and pleasure. Legal reforms should therefore create remedies that assist victims and prosecute perpetrators"[/quote]

oops, three last links (sorry! i know this is a lot)
[url="http://www.operationlookout.org/Lookout_Magazine/2010/02/11-myths-about-prostitution"]11 Myths about Prostitution[/url]
[url="http://oxyparadoxy.blogspot.com/2011/06/sickening-and-heartbreaking.html"]Sex Trafficking of Americans: The Girls Next Door[/url]
[url="http://people.exeter.ac.uk/watupman/undergrad/aac/health.htm"]Sex Work & Health[/url]

[stevil]

When an article begins "Prostitution is, by its very nature, harmful" then the objectivity of the article is in question.

This one is interesting http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7927461.stm

[Lil Red]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319319290' post='2325288']
When an article begins "Prostitution is, by its very nature, harmful" then the objectivity of the article is in question.

This one is interesting [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7927461.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7927461.stm[/url]
[/quote]
that link is interesting, because it gives a situation almost as i described:
[quote]When "Sophie", a medical worker from Christchurch, fell behind on her mortgage payments last year, she found that her job was not paying enough. Her only option was a temporary career change: she became a prostitute.[size=3]
"I needed money fast so I didn't lose my house," she explains.[/quote][/size]
[size=3]
[quote]lastly, i would just like to say that prostitution goes back to times where women (and children) are treated like chattel, like objects to be bought and sold like furniture. i thought that as an enlightened society [b]we want to prevent situations where women feel like they have to sell themselves in order to provide for their families or themselves, not ignore those situations don't exist[/b]?[/quote][/size]

[Oremoose]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319319290' post='2325288']
When an article begins "Prostitution is, by its very nature, harmful" then the objectivity of the article is in question.
[/quote]
May I ask why? If an artical begins as such all it is stating is it's thesis statment. And since the objectivity of the artical is driven by the thesis the only thing tha should be qustions is does the artitical show clearly that the thesis is true or not.
if it were found true then the artical can be seen as a good source. If not then the artical can be scanned for good valid points then discared.

Edited October 22, 2011 by Oremoose

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1319223365' post='2324789']
Porn is great,
[/quote]
LOL...

tell my wife that.

[stevil]

[quote name='Oremoose' timestamp='1319320967' post='2325297']
May I ask why? If an artical begins as such all it is stating is it's thesis statment. And since the objectivity of the artical is driven by the thesis the only thing tha should be qustions is does the artitical show clearly that the thesis is true or not.
if it were found true then the artical can be seen as a good source. If not then the artical can be scanned for good valid points then discared.
[/quote]
People tend to find what they are looking for.

If I were to do an in depth analysis I'm pretty sure I could be objective about it.
I have no issues with prostitution with regards to morals or preconceptions, I also have no incentive as I am not involved in the industry as either a service provider, investor or customer. I certainly wouldn't start from an assertion that prostitution is harmful. I might ask the question, is it harmful? does it provide benefits? What is the impact of legalising it? Then I would go on to explore those to find the real stats, have conversations with brothel owners, with sex workers, with customers, with police, with whomever else might be impacted. Have the numbers of people working in the industry been impacted? Are the number of underage workers impacted? Are incidents of abuse/assault impacted? Are cases of pregnancies or STDs impacted?

[stevil]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1319321055' post='2325298']
LOL...

tell my wife that.


[/quote]
You could try and convince your wife to watch one with you. Of course pick one with more romance and storyline that may appeal to her. Just don't appear too keen. You guys might get some fun ideas out of it. But of course if she thinks it is sinful and immoral then best not to go down that path.

[MIKolbe]

no..

she just thinks it's disgusting, and repetitive...and boring.

but thanks.