Please Be Careful

[faithcecelia]

This comes up occasionally but I feel I have to repeat it. I know this site is full of good Catholics who are loyal to the Church; I also know there is a level of romanticism and attraction to externals within religious life. At present there are a number of pictures coming up of the Sisters of Carmel, a community who are not in communion with the Church, however good they may look. Please be very careful in discernment and be sure the communities you are interested in are actually obedient to the Church

[InPersonaChriste]

Wise advice indeed. I once found myself on a beautiful site full of religious.

Then I realised that they weren't in communion with the church. And actually one of my friends was discerning with a community who then seperated themselves from the church, which was very sad and hard for my friend.

[das8949]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325880235' post='2364044']
This comes up occasionally but I feel I have to repeat it. I know this site is full of good Catholics who are loyal to the Church; I also know there is a level of romanticism and attraction to externals within religious life. At present there are a number of pictures coming up of the Sisters of Carmel, a community who are not in communion with the Church, however good they may look. Please be very careful in discernment and be sure the communities you are interested in are actually obedient to the Church
[/quote]
Faith is this the community you are talking about?

[url="http://www.sistersofcarmel.org/"]http://www.sistersofcarmel.org/[/url]

[faithcecelia]

Yep

[EmilyAnn]

As an addition, the website for most dioceses have directories that include religious communities in that diocese. It's always worth just taking a look to check they're listed as a first point. If in doubt, check with your priest - he will have a directory that should include such information (I learnt this when my priest looked up the contact info. for a community in my diocese for me).

[Sarah147]

[das8949]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325880709' post='2364054']
Yep
[/quote]
Hmmm how can they form a community wit6hout being a part of a diocese. Are they orthodox or something like that?

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='DarleneSteinemann' timestamp='1325881137' post='2364062']
Hmmm how can they form a community wit6hout being a part of a diocese. Are they orthodox or something like that?
[/quote]

No, just a law unto themselves! When they do not believe in the Church they have no reason (in their opinion) to ask permission to form!

[Sarah147]

[faithcecelia]

They are sede, tbh I think thats enough to say and make people aware of the situation, without going into too many details.

[Chiquitunga]

There've been a few threads about them in the past. They are not associated with the SSPX or SSPV (sede) but with another group of priests not in union with the Church, Servants of the Holy Family. MM explains their status [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/111529-how-sisters-do-lent/page__view__findpost__p__2218824"]here[/url] well .. and[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/93887-carmelite-monastery-of-the-sacred-hearts/page__view__findpost__p__1863661"] another post[/url]. Let's keep them in prayer

In the mean time, those who feel called to a Carmel with the EF Latin Mass can always look into Valparaiso (which should be making another foundation soon, they're over 30 again) or Elysburg, [url="http://friendsofcarmeljmj.org/"]http://friendsofcarmeljmj.org/[/url]

p.s. thanks for the warning though, as some of the new users may not have seen the old threads I've noticed at least one picture here from their site too ..

Edited January 6, 2012 by Chiquitunga

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1325885022' post='2364114']
There've been a few threads about them in the past. They are not associated with the SSPX or SSPV (sede) but with another group of priests not in union with the Church, Servants of the Holy Family. MM explains their status [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/111529-how-sisters-do-lent/page__view__findpost__p__2218824"]here[/url] well .. and[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/93887-carmelite-monastery-of-the-sacred-hearts/page__view__findpost__p__1863661"] another post[/url]. Let's keep them in prayer

In the mean time, those who feel called to a Carmel with the EF Latin Mass can always look into Valparaiso (which should be making another foundation soon, they're over 30 again) or Elysburg, [url="http://friendsofcarmeljmj.org/"]http://friendsofcarmeljmj.org/[/url]

p.s. thanks for the warning though, as some of the new users may not have seen the old threads I've noticed at least one picture here from their site too ..
[/quote]

While they may not be SSPV or announce that they are sede, The Servants of the Holy Family claim that priests who celebrate the NO Mass are devil worshipers, and this includes our beloved Pope Benedict. With those opinions, they do not accept that he is he rightful heir of the Chair of Peter, sadly. Lets not debate it, but we do need to be aware that the Church has stated that their sacraments are not valid - going to confession with these priests does not give absolution and their 'marriages' are not marriages. Similarly the women in this community are not nuns, their vows are private vows.

Anyway, given some of the pics coming up, I just wanted to highlight the situation, especially as we have some very young girls on here at present who may be more easily influenced.



I think this will be one area where I am called to focus my prayer as I re-enter Carmel, full and true obedience to the Church and the Pope as its head.

[MarysLittleFlower]

That's unfortunate! I know now that they are not in communion with the Church, but when I first saw their website, I didn't know this. I wish they were in communion with Rome because they seem like a good community otherwise. Maybe someday

Thanks for letting us know! Communion with the Church is definitely important.

Edited January 6, 2012 by MarysLittleFlower

[Indwelling Trinity]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]My Dear Friends:[/i][/color][/size][/font]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]While I do not condone stepping outside of Church norms, I ask you all to be compassionate towards these Sisters.[/i][/color][/size][/font]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]Many of you are new or relatively new to Religious life. I am older and lived in Carmel when it was going through all the turmoil of Vatcan II changes and the Declarations in place of the constitutions. It was a time of confusion, pain, division and yes even persecution of some of the more conservative Carmels in the United States.[/i][/color][/size][/font]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]This Carmel along with a few others suffered dearly at the hands of their other sisters in other Carmels. In those days, one was forcibly closed and the nuns disperesed to other Carmels[/i][/color][/size][/font] [font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]another taken over by another more powerful and influential Carmel[/i][/color][/size][/font]. [font=georgia,serif][size=4][i][color=#800000]These sisters in those days suffered very much the same but with a different outcome, what you see today. It is not an open rebellion but rather an attempt be be faithful[/color][/i][/size][/font][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i] to what they believed OHM wanted for Carmel.[/i][/color][/size][/font][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i] In those days, there were no clear guidelines,no real direction given and everyone i think in good faith thought they were doing what was right. Some Carmels were over zealous in having others go their way[/i][/color][/size][/font][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i], so much so that they went to local bishops of the more conservative Carmels and prelates in Rome[/i][/color][/size][/font] [font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]with exagerrated claims[/i][/color][/size][/font] [font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]of irregularities that in fact did not exist. You may ask how do i know this? I know it because my first Carmel was one of the ones that was forcibly prohibited from keeping novices, one of which i was at the time, In going to a new Carmel I was asked by the then prioress to translate to a visiting Cardinal what she was saying. Sadly enough, it was distorted information given to close my former Carmel. (please do not ask me any names for i will not give them.)[/i][/color][/size][/font]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]In time, the rift became so deep that Carmel now has two different sets of C[/i][/color][/size][/font][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]constitutions with some still secretly following the discontinued Declarations of the 70's even as they wear the traditional habit. This is not an apologia for disobedience, rather it is a plea for understanding the tremendous pain that these religious have lived through.[/i][/color][/size][/font]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]Many of you who seek traditional Carmelite life, and now reap the benefits of inheriting some of Carmel's ancient roots do so at the cost of those who had to fight a costly battle, loss of face , and rejection. As in any battle there are casualties, and human nature if very frail. Please tell me what is the difference between their openly taking a stance even if it be disobedient and those Carmel's that outwardly obey but within their own walls create their own rules secretly and surrepticiously maneuver around currently in force guidelines? Both extremes are not obeying the spirit of the law. Both are wrong. Yet all are in need of compassion and mercy.[/i][/color][/size][/font]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]Am i saying this is the condition of all Carmels? Absolutely not! There are many good Carmels, both 1990 and 1991's. What this post is, is a plea for understanding something very complicated; something that cannot be judged at face value. If I am not mistaken, this Carmel is still in Union with Rome but has an irregular status.[/i][/color][/size][/font] [font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]Carmel has a very turbulent history from its very roots as do many of the older orders. This is just another cycle in the history of Carmel. Carmel's roots run deep and as such has withstood many afflictions in the past and i am sure will withstand those to come[/i][/color][/size][/font]. [font=georgia,serif][size=4][i][color=#800000]Many think that OHM's reform was the only reform but there were many before her[/color][/i][/size][/font][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000]s [/color][/size][/font][color=#800000] [/color][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i] and i suppose there wil be reforms of the reform also[/i][/color][/size][/font] [font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]to come[/i][/color][/size][/font] [font=georgia,serif][size=4][i][color=#800000]as Carmel ever seeks to return to it's eremetical roots, constantly renewing itself.[/color][/i][/size][/font][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i] There are many different variations of Carmel all valid... the one major commonality is to seek the face of God alone and to find all in Him.[/i][/color][/size][/font]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]I know this will sound condescending but it is not in any way meant to be for i too went through it. But when we are young it is very easy to think in absolutes, black and white, right and wrong. good and bad. But as we grow older and live our own broken humanity and face our own truth, ideally we learn to have a deeper understanding not only of our own frailties but of the brokenness and frailties of others. We realize we are not always right nor bullet-proof, nor superman. Ideally in that knowledge, we should learn compassion; compassion towards ourselves as poor unworthy servants and compassion towards others.[/i][/color][/size][/font]

[font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]Religious life lived well should expand our hearts in love. As a Contemplative , [/i][/color][/size][/font][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]you can gauge how fruitful your silence, solitude, prayer[/i][/color][/size][/font] [font=georgia,serif][size=4][i][color=#800000]and penances are by the increase of charity you have towards others especially your own community that you live with each day; by your ability to tenderly embrace those and that which is less than perfect. It is so easy to settle in religious life into a comfortable niche where one's boat is not rocked [/color][/i][/size][/font][font=georgia,serif][size=4][i][color=#800000], a form of spiritual aecedia.[/color][/i][/size][/font] [i][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]It is even easier in the cloister to develop tunnel vision towards others not the same as you or your community or your personal ideals.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/i]

[i][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]But true love covers a multitude of sins, it does not deny the truth, but rather than condemn the sinner is seeks to embrace them in love. Judgment is for God alone for only God sees the heart. Our judgment is our own condemnation for as scripture says "so as you judge so shall you be judged."[/i][/color][/size][/font][/i]

[i][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]If we are to be excessive in anything let it be in mercy and love. I am not saying anyone here is condemning, but this thread or similar ones have come up before and some real negativity has been generated.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/i]

[i][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]I remember an old song that i loved...."You are blessed those with mercy so frail, for mankind it would die if all pity should fail... for is there a name that can last through it's years with out shame.... to a kingdom of Mercy your claim."[/i][/color][/size][/font][/i]

[i][font=georgia,serif][size=4][color=#800000][i]Sorry this is so long....but in my heart i know i am just another sinner in a slightly different flavor and my only hope is in His Mercy.[/i][/color][/size][/font][/i]

Edited January 6, 2012 by Indwelling Trinity

[faithcecelia]

I agree we should be compassionate, but in this case there is nothing to do with the differences between the 1990 and the 1991 Constitutions - both of those fully recognise and are fully recognised by the Church. The community in question is a new community (founded 1987) without permission from bishops and as such choosing to be outside of the Church. This is very, very different to a community that has struggled to get its head around V2 and chosen to keep many of their earlier traditions whilst being obedient to the Church, as represented by the bishops.

I will pray for these sisters. I will pray that God will take over their hearts and make them want Him in a new and deeper way. I will pray they grow to love the Church and want to re-enter it. I pray for the day when they choose to repent for this disobedience, with a priest who is actually able to absolve them, and they return to Mother Church. Until then, I cannot even see them as 'traditional' because one of the greatest and most essential traditions is obediemce to the Church.