Please Be Careful

[faithcecelia]

For me the warning lights were flashing when Scripture was changed to remove the unplesant bits from the Office.






As well as the male bits.

[Nunsense]

Doing things in Latin makes all that irrelevant! So much easier. I hate the gender neutral changes, especially when reading the Gospel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or calling God, our Mother and Father or calling Jesus a 'person' instead of a 'man'. Drives me nuts.

[Indwelling Trinity]

Yes... i agree... LOL. I am waiting for the new breviary to come out from Baronius press in both Latin and English taken from the Vulgate version of the bible and restoring some of the beautiful prayers said at the end of the office, especially Compline My favorite hour of the office when everything passes into profound silence of the night and the soul remain completely alone with God.

BTW.. completely approved by Rome.

[MarysLittleFlower]

wow

how do we avoid discerning with communities like these? I don't mean those that are not in communion with the Church, because we can check that.. but I mean the ones that are in communion but are not faithful and very liberalized theologically? I've heard of nuns doing yoga or praying to "mother earth", etc

It's unfortunate when communities separate from Rome and I would discern with the ones that are in communion, - but I feel sympathetic towards the "traditionalist" groups. I found my spirituality in the Latin Mass, etc, I love all the Church's traditions.. and even today, it's not always easy to practice this, because the Latin Mass is relatively rare. If it wasn't for the FSSP and diocesan Masses, I would not have access to this at all. After VII, - I don't know what things were like then because I was born decades later - but it seems like there was confusion about what the Council meant, and how to implement it, and apparently some people used it to promote their own agendas which the Church does not support. Well this probably happens today too, with the "ordination of women" or "pro choice Catholics" groups etc! So it must have been very hard for the religious orders back then.

So although I consider it important to be in union with the Church, I feel sympathetic towards these groups, and it really upsets me to hear about the unfaithful orders that incorporate non Christian spiritualities etc.

Edited January 7, 2012 by MarysLittleFlower

[cmaD2006]

Well the way to discern "community like these" is to do the same as discerning any community. Carefully.

And well, know your faith. Once you know at least the basics of your faith, you sort of start learning how to tell when something is completely legit vs. something completely off the wall.

Finally a good well rooted and rounded spiritual director helps a whole lot.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='MarysLittleFlower' timestamp='1325899382' post='2364219']
wow

how do we avoid discerning with communities like these? I don't mean those that are not in communion with the Church, because we can check that.. but I mean the ones that are in communion but are not faithful and very liberalized theologically? I've heard of nuns doing yoga or praying to "mother earth", etc

It's unfortunate when communities separate from Rome and I would discern with the ones that are in communion, - but I feel sympathetic towards the "traditionalist" groups. I found my spirituality in the Latin Mass, etc, I love all the Church's traditions.. and even today, it's not always easy to practice this, because the Latin Mass is relatively rare. If it wasn't for the FSSP and diocesan Masses, I would not have access to this at all. After VII, - I don't know what things were like then because I was born decades later - but it seems like there was confusion about what the Council meant, and how to implement it, and apparently some people used it to promote their own agendas which the Church does not support. Well this probably happens today too, with the "ordination of women" or "pro choice Catholics" groups etc! So it must have been very hard for the religious orders back then.

So although I consider it important to be in union with the Church, I feel sympathetic towards these groups, and it really upsets me to hear about the unfaithful orders that incorporate non Christian spiritualities etc.
[/quote]

Long, slow discernment with your eyes open. Yoga ia actually, in many cases, really Supple Strength - an exercise that uses similar positions and techniques without any spirituality at all. I am qualified to teach it and will certainly be doing it myself when I can, a Sunday if not before!

[Indwelling Trinity]

CMD I agree with you... but i would add one very basic thing that we often overlook or at least i do, and that is frequent prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance.... Faithfulness, knowledge of God's word , prayer, and Love... are the keys to a good discernment. "If anyone loves Me he will keep my word, and my Father will love Him and We shall come to him and make Our home with him."

There in lies each one's true vocation..in making our home with him and allowing him to make his home in us by living in His holy will. I think that if we strive to do this no matter how many seeming mistakes or wrong turns we may make along the way, the Father knowing our hearts will come and lead us to safely to our true home and we will know intimately, Emmanuel" God with us.

[vee]

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1325900682' post='2364232']
Long, slow discernment with your eyes open. Yoga ia actually, in many cases, really Supple Strength - an exercise that uses similar positions and techniques without any spirituality at all. I am qualified to teach it and will certainly be doing it myself when I can, a Sunday if not before!
[/quote]

I think the time would be better spent praying the Rosary.

[faithcecelia]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1325903487' post='2364258']
I think the time would be better spent praying the Rosary.
[/quote]

My rosary will be said as well, but physical activity is important and I ensure I keep my body strong.

[Nunsense]

I don't think that yoga is something we should be promoting here on phatmass. It is still controversial to a lot of people, and if you are using the physical part of it for exercise, that is your choice, but especially since one of Vatican's chief exorcists has recently come out against it, I would just hesitate to offer one's support for it here. Perhaps if you took a discussion of it to the Debate Table, faith, that would be more appropriate then here in VS? Just a suggestion. There are many mixed feelings about this topic.

[Nunsense]

Here are some previous threads on yoga from Debate Table doing a search. One of them is locked. I didn't read them again but perhaps it got too hot? So everyone be charitable if you debate.



[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/117510-harry-potter-and-yoga-are-evil-says-catholic-church-exorcist/page__hl__%2Bexorcist+%2Byoga__fromsearch__1"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/117510-harry-potter-and-yoga-are-evil-says-catholic-church-exorcist/page__hl__%2Bexorcist+%2Byoga__fromsearch__1[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/66377-the-problem-with-yoga/page__st__260__p__1521738__hl__+exorcist%20+yoga__fromsearch__1"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/66377-the-problem-with-yoga/page__st__260__p__1521738__hl__+exorcist%20+yoga__fromsearch__1[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/4272-new-agemodernism-infilltration-of-our-church/page__p__68323__hl__+exorcist%20+yoga__fromsearch__1"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/4272-new-agemodernism-infilltration-of-our-church/page__p__68323__hl__+exorcist%20+yoga__fromsearch__1[/url]

[vee]

Carmelites need a log, or cross, and a sand pit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W5F6rZIlqU

[Nunsense]

They need to carry stones to one side of the monastery and then bring them all back again!

[dominicansoul]

we did this same exercise in the dominican convent, except we used a Sister instead of a log...



...but hey, I lost like, 40 lbs...

[she_who_is_not]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1325905562' post='2364273']
we did this same exercise in the dominican convent, except we used a Sister instead of a log...



...but hey, I lost like, 40 lbs...
[/quote]

Is that the 10th way of prayer?

[Nunsense]

[quote name='she_who_is_not' timestamp='1325906099' post='2364276']
Is that the 10th way of prayer?
[/quote]

No, it's called the Punitive Way, it's a cross between purgative and unitive

[vee]

the OP is on the left

[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-AYcH1Rb1gBw/Ttghv4p1GyI/AAAAAAAAAPI/TfDwWG20Nfg/s1600/U.S.+Army+Combatives.jpg[/img]

[Totally Franciscan]

Indwelling Trinity, how lovely to read your posts again. They always give me food for thought and warm my heart. Since this is a religious life discernment forum, I think it imperative that those who know of the irregularities of some communities share that - without judgment - but share it nonetheless. I would never have known these nuns in Colorado were not regular, and I take offense at communities that try to hide that fact about themselves. With that said, I would like to add that I was in a Carmel that had some irregularities, which I did not know until I entered. It was only apparent in living there for one week, and then I was told. I spent the next year and a half trying to come to terms with it, but in the end could not. The bishop disbanded the community (I can't think of the legal term for disbanded, but you get the idea). Since I was young at the time and did not have a spiritual director, I was at a loss as to what to do vocation wise. I was very much lost. I had planned to spend the rest of my life there, and then it was pulled out from beneath me. Since you brought up obedience, I would like to add something that I have struggled with these many years. I saw my sisters struggling in obedience when they knew things were not correct. They were always obedient, but they were obedient in doing the wrong - at least going along with it. I just wonder when being obedient is not the best thing for one's soul.

[MithLuin]

I will second prayerful discernment! There is seldom a reason to rush a decision to enter.

Also, when visiting, certain things about a community are likely to 'come out.' Depending upon how things are handled...the sisters may be quite proud of the ways they deviate from, erm, 'normal' communities and will tell you all about it. A 'oh, we don't do that here....' attitude. If they've changed the language of the liturgy (or the hours) you will know this right away when you pray with them.

I'm not saying that a group that is moving away from the Church will be obvious, but if you encounter some red flags in your conversations with them or observations during your visit....do not dismiss these things as just an anomaly. Do not assume that all is well and you must have been mistaken. Share your concerns with your spiritual director, certainly...and, if appropriate, ask the vocation director directly for an explanation. It is possible you are concerned about an innocent misunderstanding...but this might not be a time to give someone the benefit of the doubt.


That being said, I do know a religious community that is full of all sorts of red flags (of the more liberal bent, not the traditionalist bent). They are in communion with the Church, but I would have difficulty recommending that anyone discern there because of what I have observed. And yet...and yet. These women have devoted their lives to prayer. They were nothing if not thoughtful and solicitous towards me while I was in their company. They showed great insights in their conversations, and likely know a good deal more about love and hospitality than I do. I do not dislike them as people, and in fact learned some things from them.

And so, I must second (third?) the call for charity towards all communities, maybe most especially those who seem to have lost their way. It is beyond me to judge the individual sisters who are members there, and prayers are always welcome and appreciated.

Knowingly discerning with a group outside the Church that does not have the sacraments strikes me as particularly foolhardy, so the warning in this thread (to check with the diocese first before discerning with a group) seems like a sensible one. If one does encounter such a group during one's search for a community....keep them in your prayers. Maybe someday, they will return to full communion with the Church, and their past wounds will be healed.

[beatitude]

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1325903487' post='2364258']
I think the time would be better spent praying the Rosary.
[/quote]

Formal exercise is something that all cloistered nuns need to take for the sake of their health, especially if their primary work is sedentary (sewing, making crafts, etc.) Many monasteries set aside special time for it. Stretching exercises have an advantage in that they don't require extra facilities or much space, and Faith has explicitly said that hers aren't the same as yoga, so the debate that Nunsense mentions doesn't even apply. She was in Carmel for eighteen months so I think she understands what she needs in the way of exercise. I will also say that I have never known her to cut back on her prayer time for anything.