Please Be Careful

[Nihil Obstat]

Yes, you are correct.  Thank you for adding this.  I was reading about this just a little while ago.  Most priests use a test because there are some people that become so enamored with possession that they actually believe they are possessed but exorcists are trained to know the signs of real possession.  They can tell when someone is not really possessed.  Another test I read about was by one of the priests who exorcised Anneliese Michel.  When he first started on her case, he brought two bottles of water -- one was regular and the other was Holy Water.  Neither was labeled.  Anneliese took the bottle of Holy Water and threw it across the room.  She was also known to destroy several rosaries which is highly rare unless the person is possessed by one of the most evil spirits.  This is a girl who used to pray several hours a day and could not pray any longer when the demons infested her.

That is why I mention that Latin is ideal for those little deliverance prayers. Not because Latin is best, although it is ( ;) ) but because if the other party does not understand it, and if their condition is primarily mental, they will not be able to react subconsciously in the way they thing they might be 'supposed to'.

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I hardly ever come to the Debate Table but I just needed to respond to this.  Playing with the occult is no joke and not something to be taken lightly.  Take Ouija boards for instance -- people think it is a game or that you can communicate with your loved ones.  Anytime something happens, it's usually a demonic spirit guiding the planchette -- not a loved one.  The devil has all sorts of disguises and his biggest lie is that there is no harm in crystals, magic, occultism, etc.  The risk is HUGE.  It leads us away from God and the occult becomes "god."  Why take the risk?  Possession, while rare, is incredibly frightening and is usually the result of someone getting into something they shouldn't have.

I think the Ouija board is overhyped as well. The fact that Parker Brothers mass-manufactures them should raise some flags. Those who play with the Ouija board are strongly influenced by the ideomotor effect. In other words, they are subconsciously moving the planchette without realizing it. If you feel daring, buy a Ouiji board from your local walmart and blindfold a first time participant. See if they can even come up with one intelligible word. 

 

 

A priest cannot perform an impromptu exorcism.  If they recognize that someone may be possessed, they must go to their Bishop first and then the Bishop usually has to contact the Holy See if he believes the case is genuine.  The case of the person who may be possessed has to be intensely examined.  It is a grueling process.  No priest wants to tangle with satan.  Many exorcisms may have to be performed before the possessed finds any relief.  Satan is very real and grabs hold of his intended victim with a vengeance.  

 

 

I don't doubt that possession does occur and that priests can exorcize people. However, I would say that belief might play a strong role in some cases. I would argue that believing you could get possessed after consulting a soothsayer could lead to you acting/feeling possessed. It could lead to very similar symptoms that would be hard to differentiate between. It is also possible that the ordained do not always understand what specifically leads to this phenomenon. Their limited knowledge of the reality of magic tricks and psychological phenomenon could lead to them to incorrectly assess the cause of possession. 

 

 

 

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. -- 1 Peter 5:8

 

If you dabble in the occult, you are setting yourself up for major problems.  Read the First Commandment.

 

1.     I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.

 

Please read these accounts of exorcists.  They are sobering.

 

http://newssun.suntimes.com/news/3521595-418/story.html

 

http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/stories/an-exorcism-story/

 

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700193717/Vatican-trained-exorcist-shares-true-tales-of-his-craft.html?pg=all

 

Also, there is a movie called The Exorcism of Emily Rose.  The characters, while fictionalized, are based off a true story of a German girl named Anneliese Michel.  I've listened to tape recordings of the exorcisms that were performed on her and the accounts are frightening.  The devil is real and we should always be vigilant and on guard.

The Exorcism of Emily Rose is proof that the phenomenon of possession is not necessarily due to seeking out fortune tellers and playing board games. I am not saying there are not dark forces. I am merely stating that these two conditions are most likely not the cause of them. My family has consulted an exorcist who spent his whole life doing this work. There are so many possible causes for demonic possession. It is not hard to mistakenly credit an innocuous source.

Edited April 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[To Jesus Through Mary]

From religious orders not in communion with the Church to possessions and everything in between. I love these kind of threads.  

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Thank you Mater! I was just writing a reply here when I saw what you wrote. I appreciate someone else from the phorum chiming in, as I know I am certainly not alone in this.

 

The exorcist priest of my diocese is a totally competent and well-educated experienced man, very aware of the possibility of something being of psychological origin. I don't think there is any way I can "prove you wrong" in a conversation here on an internet forum. I appreciate that you are open to this though. You would have to know all the details of this case, the person, be present at the times he/she visited the exorcist, etc, which I would of course never write on an internet forum. All I can say to you is that this was a completely normal young person with no psychological problems before the possession and afterwards, and is living a completely normal life now in college. 

That is horrifying. I'm glad your friend is okay. Sorry if I came off as skeptical. I am more skeptical about the cause they mentioned than the fact that it happened, if that makes sense. I am not assuming the priests or the bishops are incompetent for attributing the cause of the possession to crystals, far from it. The smartest people can be tricked into believing all sorts of things (Newton was into Alchemy). I believe this exercise of looking at supposed "supernatural" phenomenon like seances  and psychic readings with doubt is helpful in identifying the root of these problems. 

 

This is all I'm going to write here about this though. It's not good to focus on or give attention to evil. But it's important to know it exists and that these things do open the door to Satan. And by this, I am not saying psychics are true, no. I am saying the devil/demons can use this to enter a person, and they can use what they know (like with Ouija boards, etc.) to make a person think such things are "magic" or whatever they want to believe.

This is very true. However, there is a psychological explanation for the phenomenon that happens with Ouija boards. It also explains dousing. The psychics thing is completely false. I can show you a whole host of youtube links explaining the technique of hot and cold reading and exposing these horrible frauds. 

 

Edited April 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Chiquitunga]

The Exorcism of Emily Rose is proof that the phenomenon of possession is not necessarily due to seeking out fortune tellers and playing board games. I am not saying there are not dark forces. I am merely stating that these two conditions are most likely not the cause of them. My family has consulted an exorcist who spent his whole life doing this work. There are so many possible causes for demonic possession. It is not hard to mistakenly credit an innocuous source.

 

That is completely true. There are many possible causes for a possession or the other degrees of demonic infestation/oppression, etc. We're just saying though that those things such as psychics, Ouija boards, etc. can (not always) open the door for a demon/s to enter a person. You were saying in your first post here that you don't believe that anymore, and that you felt you were misled to believe some crazy stuff by priests.

 

About your comment regarding fear before, personally none of this makes me fearful or worried at all, just aware (and gratefully aware) of the reality of it and the seriousness of avoiding such things, not only because psychics as you say are cheats and jerks. Also many of these things aren't connected to going to someone like that and being cheated anyway. They should all just be avoided altogether.

[Chiquitunga]

Just saw your new post. Thanks for your explanation there :like: Just have a small comment on one thing you said.

 

 

 

This is very true. However, there is a psychological explanation for the phenomenon that happens with Ouija boards. It also explains dousing. The psychics thing is completely false. I can show you a whole host of youtube links explaining the technique of hot and cold reading and exposing these horrible frauds. 

 

 

I don't doubt that that this is true at all. And about the Ouija boards, I am sure that the vast majority of the time what you described before regarding people moving the thing (subconsciously or not, etc) is definitely true. But whether the psychic or what makes the Ouija board thing (whatever it's called, glad I don't know) move is the direct intervention of a demon/s is irrelevant still to my point. Simply being involved with these things can open the door to the devil/s. They are a sin against the First Commandment for one thing. 

 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

That is completely true. There are many possible causes for a possession or the other degrees of demonic infestation/oppression, etc. We're just saying though that those things such as psychics, Ouija boards, etc. can (not always) open the door for a demon/s to enter a person. You were saying in your first post here that you don't believe that anymore, and that you felt you were misled to believe some crazy stuff by priests.

Oh, yes. I don't believe that psychics and ouija boards open portals for demons to enter a person. I think the priests that told us this were doing us an injustice. Imagine how that would affect an eleven year old OCD child. After we did all we were instructed, nothing changed.  We were just extremely paranoid for the time being. It turns out our family was merely dealing with excessive stress. 
Outside of the personal, I believe that it is the priest's duty to investigate these matters in more detail. Our understanding of exorcism thousands of years ago is not applicable anymore. People once believed demons caused all sorts of ailments, until we realized what they really were. We should be open to evidence that some of these alleged causes of possession are outdated so we can differentiate between what is innocuous and what is dangerous. 

 

About your comment regarding fear before, personally none of this makes me fearful or worried at all, just aware (and gratefully aware) of the reality of it and the seriousness of avoiding such things, not only because psychics as you say are cheats and jerks. Also many of these things aren't connected to going to someone like that and being cheated anyway. They should all just be avoided altogether.

This is an interesting point. The reason why these things are forbidden is because they were thought to be real. If going to a psychic would open up portals for demons to enter one's life, would going to a magic show with magicians reproducing these same tricks yield the same results? I honestly think the exorcists could be wrong about this. 

Edited April 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Sorry, just to be clear, I've never actually played with a ouija board. One of my parents went to a psychic and that's what I was specifically referring to. 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

 

Just saw your new post. Thanks for your explanation there :like: Just have a small comment on one thing you said.

 

 

 

I don't doubt that that this is true at all. And about the Ouija boards, I am sure that the vast majority of the time what you described before regarding people moving the thing (subconsciously or not, etc) is definitely true. But whether the psychic or what makes the Ouija board thing (whatever it's called, glad I don't know) move is the direct intervention of a demon/s is irrelevant still to my point. Simply being involved with these things can open the door to the devil/s. They are a sin against the First Commandment for one thing. 

 

Well, that depends on how you would use the ouija board, I believe. If we were to play it without calling upon spirits, I don't see how that would break the first commandment. When I referred to psychics, I was specifically referring to people you go to for tarrot card readings,  communication with dead relatives, readings into your past and future, astrological readings, etc. 

Edited April 22, 2013 by CatholicsAreKewl

[Chiquitunga]

Back to possessions that happen through no fault of the person, one unusual case was that of Blessed Mariam of Jesus Crucified, OCD (not obsessive compulsive disorder :j) Our Lord allowed her to be possessed on two different occasions, which is described in this book - Mariam "The Little Arab"   available from the Carmel of Maria Regina for $8 here - http://aquerofoundation.com/id19.html  lol, this might get labeled as spam  :proud:

 

From religious orders not in communion with the Church to possessions and everything in between. I love these kind of threads.  

 

I was thinking that exact thing regarding this thread... oh my.... Just to make it clear to anyone who reads this now or in the future, these two topics - the religious community and possessions are not related, although I've somehow brought the subject back to Carmel :smile3:

 

 

[Chiquitunga]

Just saw your new posts. First I want to make sure you know, my comment and little smiley regarding OCD (Ordo Carmelitarum Discalceatorum) was written before I saw your posts.. definitely wouldn't have written that if I saw them.

 

 

 

This is an interesting point. The reason why these things are forbidden is because they were thought to be real. If going to a psychic would open up portals for demons to enter one's life, would going to a magic show with magicians reproducing these same tricks yield the same results? I honestly think the exorcists could be wrong about this. 

 

 

 

Personally, I would not go to a magic show myself. But these two scenarios you describe are different. In one someone is intentionally trying to get information about their future/or loved ones who died, etc. The other is, in most cases I think at least (wouldn't know) not doing that. 

 

 

Well, that depends on how you would use the ouija board, I believe. If we were to play it without calling upon spirits, I don't see how that would break the first commandment. When I referred to psychics, I was specifically referring to people you go to for tarrot card readings,  communication with dead relatives, readings into your past and future, astrological readings, etc. 

 

 

It would still be trying to "unveil" things like someone's future from a source that is not of God. I believe this would still fall into this description the new Catechism gives of sins against the First Commandment. (and I know you do not believe this, but evil spirits do not have to be directly called upon to act)

 

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future.⁴⁸ Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

 

[Chiquitunga]

 

Oh, yes. I don't believe that psychics and ouija boards open portals for demons to enter a person. I think the priests that told us this were doing us an injustice. Imagine how that would affect an eleven year old OCD child. After we did all we were instructed, nothing changed.  We were just extremely paranoid for the time being. It turns out our family was merely dealing with excessive stress. 

Outside of the personal, I believe that it is the priest's duty to investigate these matters in more detail. Our understanding of exorcism thousands of years ago is not applicable anymore. People once believed demons caused all sorts of ailments, until we realized what they really were. We should be open to evidence that some of these alleged causes of possession are outdated so we can differentiate between what is innocuous and what is dangerous. 

 

 

I am really sorry your family went through so much stress and were not given the help you really needed :( As you said before, priests are human. Some do a better job than others.

 

Still I trust the knowledge and experience of modern exorcist priests and I do not think the discernment of the one in my diocese was incorrect regarding the open door being from the crystals. 

 

That is true about advances in modern science regarding the true cause of ailments. And many illnesses back then were thought to be possessions/infestations (or because of sin) I am sure. But I do not think this means that - therefore - all of these different things cannot open the door to evil, "this sounds medieval so it must be false" etc.

 

Okay, have a blessed night sleep :sleep2:  I'm not sure I'll come back to this conversation as I'm not much into debating online... takes up too much time and energy and as I said, I don't think I can prove anything to anyone really over an internet forum. I will say a prayer for you though and your family. Please pray for me too :pray:

 

p.s. I like your screen name! :cool:

[CatholicsAreKewl]

Just saw your new posts. First I want to make sure you know, my comment and little smiley regarding OCD (Ordo Carmelitarum Discalceatorum) was written before I saw your posts.. definitely wouldn't have written that if I saw them.

hahaha, no offense taken. 

 

Personally, I would not go to a magic show myself. But these two scenarios you describe are different. In one someone is intentionally trying to get information about their future/or loved ones who died, etc. The other is, in most cases I think at least (wouldn't know) not doing that. 

 

True but this situation gets more complicated. Penn Jillette, that weird atheist magician who defended Catholicism against Piers Morgan, noted that after one of his shows someone asked him if she could speak to her dead loved one. The trick he had performed earlier was so convincing that the audience member refused to believe him when he repeatedly ensured her that he didn't have that ability.
 

Let's imagine a situation in which someone was to pretend to talk to the dead while telling the audience that this was a big sham. Some members of the audience come to the show convinced that he is forced to lie and claim his "powers" aren't real. They show up with the intention of speaking to their dead loved ones. Would this open up portals for demons to enter into these people's lives? 

[CatholicsAreKewl]

I am really sorry your family went through so much stress and were not given the help you really needed :( As you said before, priests are human. Some do a better job than others.

Sorry, I did not mean to make the story emotional. It was too far back for me to care anymore. I was only trying to give an example of mistakes like this happening. 

 

Still I trust the knowledge and experience of modern exorcist priests and I do not think the discernment of the one in my diocese was incorrect regarding the open door being from the crystals.

That is fine too. Like I said, I'm not completely denying the possibility. I'm just skeptical. 

 

That is true about advances in modern science regarding the true cause of ailments. And many illnesses back then were thought to be possessions/infestations (or because of sin) I am sure. But I do not think this means that - therefore - all of these different things cannot open the door to evil, "this sounds medieval so it must be false" etc.

Well, if the logic is that it opens the doors to evil because certain acts are a result of supernatural forces, then I might question that claim. If the doors to evil were opened due to the intentions of the persons involved, it would make more sense. 

 

Okay, have a blessed night sleep  :sleep2:  I'm not sure I'll come back to this conversation as I'm not much into debating online... takes up too much time and energy and as I said, I don't think I can prove anything to anyone really over an internet forum. I will say a prayer for you though and your family. Please pray for me too  :pray:

No worries. I like to think of it as a discussion, not a debate. Thanks for the prayers, I'll send some towards you too. 

p.s. I like your screen name!  :cool: 

Thanks I like yours too, very original. This is turning into a compliment-off.