Catholic Does Not Equal Gop

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Basilisa Marie' timestamp='1346783774' post='2478341']
Which is why I'm probably voting third party this year.
[/quote]

razzle dazzle, Obama will appreciate your vote !

ed

[Winchester]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346790105' post='2478380']
If you vote for a third party, you are giving a vote to the President running for a second term, IMO.
[/quote]
Sounds like Romney was a stupid choice, then.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='To Jesus Through Mary' timestamp='1346802995' post='2478464']
As much as I don't like it, it is a reality that a 3rd party would never win in this election. We all know it. So to vote that way, is it a "wasted" vote, I don't think so. But I do think it substantially raises the chance of reelecting a man who is detrimental to our freedom. If he is elected again,[i][b] maybe persecution would be good for American Catholics to finally take a stand and stop being so PC and soft.[/b][/i] After all, it was the Catholic vote who got us Obama the 1st time around.
[/quote]

I have thought about this quite a lot lately. I think about how devout the early christians who were forced to practise their faith in teh catacombs for fear of death and the equivalent when the catholics had to hide from fear of hitlers persecution and what went on with the Chinese catholics not too forget the current issues in Africa. This type of fear of persecution and death does seem to breed a more profound sense of the worth of religious freedoms and faith. That said, are we as a nation ready for that? Would we be able to go to jail rather then pay taxes to Obama care to fund abortion by catholic institutions ? Are we ready to be tested in fire, or are we cowards who would just pay those taxes and hold our nose and accept the limits of religious freedoms and the increases in the murder of the yet born human lives. Will we be happy with same sex marriages and the consequences of preferential rights to homosexuals, how will this meld with our catholic values?

ed

Edited September 5, 2012 by Ed Normile

[missionseeker]

If we are the kind of ppl who submit to vote for presidential candidates we cannot morally agree with, then yes. We as a nation are the kind of cowards who would pay taxes and go on with the inconveniences of having to pay taxes and fines to top out of policies.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346807434' post='2478509']
If we are the kind of ppl who submit to vote for presidential candidates we cannot morally agree with, then yes. We as a nation are the kind of cowards who would pay taxes and go on with the inconveniences of having to pay taxes and fines to top out of policies.
[/quote]

So, does this mean you morally agree with Obama or Romney ? These are your only two viable choices this election.

Obama stands for unlimited abortion even late term and killing a child who survives a botched abortion I.E. killed after live birth, the homosexual agenda, and the limiting of religious freedom.

Romney has promised to repeal Obama care, he stated that it would not work on a national level due to the costs of coverage needed to be covered by increased taxes, he promises to reduce government intrusions on our lives in the form of less government agencies and restrictions, he is against the homosexual agenda of same sex marriage and being a Mormon, a faith that has seen severe persecution by the government in its short history he is against limiting religious freedom.

ed

ed

[emmaberry]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346806712' post='2478494']
Would we be able to go to jail rather then pay taxes to Obama care to fund abortion by catholic institutions ?[/quote]

This isn't a real response to the questions in your post, but I thought Catholic institutions would only have to pay a fine if they did not offer ObamaCare to their employees? I do agree that this could escalate to jail eventually, but I didn't now if that was the the present consequence of not complying.

[Maximilianus]

you all can solve these issues by voting me for el general mayor del junta nacional de los estados unidos y paises insulares. No politcal parties, just policy based on my opinions. I agree with myself most of the time. Don't worry, me and my junta will treat our friends well.

[missionseeker]

I'm voting for Max.


Definitely not Romney or Obama. Viable option bs and wasting votes that's all bs.

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346808031' post='2478516']


So, does this mean you morally agree with Obama or Romney ? These are your only two viable choices this election.

Obama stands for unlimited abortion even late term and killing a child who survives a botched abortion I.E. killed after live birth, the homosexual agenda, and the limiting of religious freedom.

Romney has promised to repeal Obama care, he stated that it would not work on a national level due to the costs of coverage needed to be covered by increased taxes, he promises to reduce government intrusions on our lives in the form of less government agencies and restrictions, he is against the homosexual agenda of same sex marriage and being a Mormon, a faith that has seen severe persecution by the government in its short history he is against limiting religious freedom.

ed

ed
[/quote]


I cannot in good conscience vote for either of these candidates.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346808116' post='2478517']
This isn't a real response to the questions in your post, but I thought Catholic institutions would only have to pay a fine if they did not offer ObamaCare to their employees? I do agree that this could escalate to jail eventually, but I didn't now if that was the the present consequence of not complying.
[/quote]

Emmaberry, the " fines " are to be used to cover the " tax " you would not be paying. If you refuse to pay both the tax and the fine, the only way to effectively opt out of paying for abortion and abortifacients, then you go to jail.

ed

Edited September 5, 2012 by Ed Normile

[emmaberry]

Of course third parties have taken [s]party[/s] power over the course of history. People are trying to turn this into a 'third parties can win too!' thing, when nobody ever said they can't. I am saying that, in the next election, a third party will probably not win. Anyone who argues otherwise has not paid attention to any substantive polling statistics.

The Church says that, as Catholics, it's our duty to vote so as to increase good. The Church also teaches that, if the two main candidates are both pro-abortion, the faithful can vote for the one who will do the least amount of harm. So if you have a candidate who says abortion is okay only in cases of rape and incest, while the other is for widespread and late-term abortion and killing children who survive abortion, then in good conscience you can vote for the candidate who is for abortion as long as they are for 'less.'

I don't think a third party vote is 'wasted.' I do believe, in this election, the independent/third party vote will help President Obama win.. As a Catholic, I definitely don't want that. As Catholics though, you certainly have the right to vote for a third party candidate.

[color=#222222][font=Helvetica Neue', Arial, Verdana, sans-serif][size=4][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)][quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346808535' post='2478526']
Emmaberry, the " fines " are to be used to cover the " tax " you would not be paying. If you refuse to pay both the tax and the fine, the only way to effectively opt out of paying for abortion and abortifacients, then you go to jail.
[/quote]

So people under the Catholic employer's illegal non-ObamaCare will still have access to contraceptives and abortifacients through this fine?[/background][/size][/font][/color]

Edited September 5, 2012 by emmaberry

[4588686]

[quote name='Hubertus' timestamp='1346787492' post='2478361']
If there's a Constitution Party on the ballot (my friend says there will be, but I haven't found any information on it), then that's where my vote's going. Otherwise, Republican. You're right, though.
[/quote]

I don't know where you live. But here in the south 'constitution parties' tend to be neo-confederate or racistish organizations.

[To Jesus Through Mary]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346808031' post='2478516']
So, does this mean you morally agree with Obama or Romney ? These are your only two viable choices this election.

Obama stands for unlimited abortion even late term and killing a child who survives a botched abortion I.E. killed after live birth, the homosexual agenda, and the limiting of religious freedom.

Romney has [b]promised[/b] to repeal Obama care, he stated that it would not work on a national level due to the costs of coverage needed to be covered by increased taxes, he [b]promises[/b] to reduce government intrusions on our lives in the form of less government agencies and restrictions,[b] [says][/b] he is against the homosexual agenda of same sex marriage and being a Mormon, a faith that has seen severe persecution by the government in its short history he[b] [says] [/b]is against limiting religious freedom.

ed

ed
[/quote]

I am with you 95% Ed. I would never vote for Obama. A vote for him is a vote for death. (How is that for a slogan?) But remember Romney is a politician. He has been pro-life when it works for his career. I am certainly not putting any hope into this man turning this nation around. God alone can do that.

He is still a way better choice for a vote then Obama, or I am sorry to say a 3rd party. Although Washington may not have wanted it, it may not have always been that way, it is the way it is now. A 3rd party would not win. I do not want Obama to win. What other choice do I have, to not vote?

[BG45]

[img]http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/5792/ovsr.jpg[/img]

[Ed Normile]

Missionseeker, your last post reminds me of the inexperience of youth and idealisms.

“An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it makes a better soup.”- Bertrand Russell

“God save me from idealists.”- Jim Butcher, Grave Peril

This will be a close election, make no mistake of that. This country is closely divided between liberals who believe that anythings goes, almost hedonists and they will vote no matter what or who is in their best interests which are no self responsibility either sexually or financially they will vote for a free ride.
Conservatives on the other hand although well meaning tend to be idealistic in many of their views. They will withhold their vote waiting for Jesus to run for office, which will not happen most likely. So their vote or lack of vote is actually a vote for the other candidate, so in good conscience your not voting or 3rd party vote will be for Obama's benefit.

God bless you, do whatever pleases you when it comes time to vote. Keep in mind that if many conservatives or idealists do not vote then they have no right to say they are against abortion or same sex marriage or the government controlling the church, afterall it was under Obama's orders the U.S.C.C.B. were called to Washington to be told they needed to listen to modern enlightened catholics such as Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden.

ed

[missionseeker]

Given that you have no idea of anything about me think that's an awful lot of words spouting forth from your fingers. I didn't read it all I stopped at "god save me from idealists. "

You should read Chesterton.

Am I young? Yeah. Am I idealistic? I'll grant that to you because I do think that if more people voted what they actually believed it would make some difference. Do I think a third party candidate could win this election? No. Do I think I should vote for a candidate whose record is full of policies that are 1) contrary to what I think a presidents should be and 2) contrary to what he is currently saying his policies are/will be. Heck no.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346810618' post='2478565']
Given that you have no idea of anything about me think that's an awful lot of words spouting forth from your fingers. I didn't read it all I stopped at "god save me from idealists. "

You should read Chesterton.

Am I young? Yeah. Am I idealistic? I'll grant that to you because I do think that if more people voted what they actually believed it would make some difference. Do I think a third party candidate could win this election? No. Do I think I should vote for a candidate whose record is full of policies that are 1) [b]contrary to what I think a presidents should be and 2) contrary to what he is currently saying his policies are/will be. Heck no.[/b]
[/quote]

Okay, I will bite ! What specifically are these policies you rail against so ?

ed

[Winchester]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346809453' post='2478541']


God bless you, do whatever pleases you when it comes time to vote. Keep in mind that if many conservatives or idealists do not vote then they have no right to say they are against abortion or same sex marriage or the government controlling the church, afterall it was under Obama's orders the U.S.C.C.B. were called to Washington to be told they needed to listen to modern enlightened catholics such as Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden.

ed
[/quote]
This is the biggest load of the essence of cow. The idea that if we vote, we somehow have a voice, and the idea that if we don't vote, we have no right to beesh because a lot of jackasses over whom we have no control anyway got in without us participating in the farcical ceremony of the ballot.

It doesn't matter if I vote, or not. The people with the power are going to do as they please. I do not lose my rights based on a lack of participation in this joke of a republic. My rights may be violated, but they do not disappear. Nor do a bunch of morons put into a meaningless position of power gain any rights. They have power. They will have it whether people vote, or not. It will not matter which of the two big government coppery possers gets into office.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346810618' post='2478565']
Do I think a third party candidate could win this election? No. Do I think I should vote for a candidate whose record is full of policies that are 1) contrary to what I think a presidents should be and 2) contrary to what he is currently saying his policies are/will be. Heck no.
[/quote]

This is where we differ. I, while not perfectly happy with the candidate I am voting for, would rather vote towards the lesser evil and so increase the general good, even if it is only in a small measure. Whereas you, and I am assuming other 3rd party voters, believe so strongly on the issues that you would not vote for a candidate who compromises on [s]this[/s] these issues, and see this as contributing to the greater good.

So we are both going towards the same thing in different ways.. Yours seems to deal more with your personal conscience, and mine deals more with what I perceive to be the greater good of society. Both are worthy things to cast your vote toward.

Forgive me if I am picking words out of your (and other 3rd party-ers) mouth.

Edited September 5, 2012 by emmaberry

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346811146' post='2478568']


Okay, I will bite ! What specifically are these policies you rail against so ?

ed
[/quote]

I've actually already given several quite freely.
have you looked at MAs healthcare? Romney has no problem defending it. Confusing because it's crazy similar to the one that Obama passed. So... Obama's is not ok and romneys is. At the same time.

If a person wants to make the issue of abortion important then they need to back it with their votes. If you'll notice, Romney's exception doesn't stop at "in cases of rape or incest". He also adds "or when the mother's Health is in jeopardy.". There an no explanations as to what that means/who determines that, etc.

Also did you notice during the RNC he said "I will not increase taxes on the middle class". Great. Who's getting the tax increase?
Have you ever looked at his spending policy while he was governor of MA?

And for those who think Ryan will make it better how do you justify him saying that he sometimes has to vote against his own values so that later he can vote for them. What? That doesn't even make sense.

I have no Internet, only a phone and my family's about to pray so that's all I can do for now.