Catholic Does Not Equal Gop

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1346972349' post='2479540']
Is that productive?

and who is 'you guys'?
[/quote]

Yes. It is productive to reform the GOP and demand reasonable candidates to have any hope of Restoring America!

_____

Is it productive to enforce the status quo and give integrity and support to traitorous backstabbers of the pro-life cause?

Is it productive to support candidates whose lawyers force rule changes so that grassroots movements will have even LESS opportunity of succeeding in the future?

Is it productive to tell the RNC that it is okay to withhold funds so as to bleed real pro-life candidates dry so that they can be replaced by villainous moderates who maintain the status quo?

Is it productive to ignore the vote history and go all in on the 4 seconds of attention the GOP nominee gives to the pro-life cause?

When was the last time the RNC or Mitt Romney actually did something substantial on ending or even limiting abortion?

[quote][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Mitt_Romney#Abortion_and_related_issues"]In 2011, Romney declined to sign a pro-life pledge[/url] sponsored by the [/size][/font][/color][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_B._Anthony_List"]Susan B. Anthony List[/url][color=#000000][font=sans-serif][size=3] to support legislation to end all taxpayer funding of abortion and to sign a law to "protect unborn children who are capable of feeling pain from abortion." The pledge also commits signers to nominate judges and appoint executive branch officials who are pro-life. Romney's spokeswoman said the pledge could have "unforeseen consequences" and that Romney could not "in good conscience sign it."[/size][/font][/color][/quote]


Where "you guys" refers to all who intend to support and/or vote for Mitt Romney.

[Papist]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1346973277' post='2479546']
Yes. It is productive to reform the GOP and demand reasonable candidates to have any hope of Restoring America!

_____

Is it productive to enforce the status quo and give integrity and support to traitorous backstabbers of the pro-life cause?

Is it productive to support candidates whose lawyers force rule changes so that grassroots movements will have even LESS opportunity of succeeding in the future?

Is it productive to tell the RNC that it is okay to withhold funds so as to bleed real pro-life candidates dry so that they can be replaced by villainous moderates who maintain the status quo?

Is it productive to ignore the vote history and go all in on the 4 seconds of attention the GOP nominee gives to the pro-life cause?

When was the last time the RNC or Mitt Romney actually did something substantial on ending or even limiting abortion?




Where "you guys" refers to all who intend to support and/or vote for Mitt Romney.
[/quote]
I am not out to reform the GOP.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1346974534' post='2479555']
I am not out to reform the GOP.
[/quote]
Are you out shopping?

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1346972349' post='2479540']

Is that productive?

and who is 'you guys'?
[/quote]
[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1346972421' post='2479541']

And what moral reasons are these?
[/quote]

I guess the great thing about pm is that when I feel like I'm just repeating myself I can just quote myself and save the trouble typing....
[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346874336' post='2478884']


Since I've studied theology at a very Catholic university, I really don't need that explained to me.

Since I've studied politics, I really don't need that explained to me either.

Since I am member of this Republic, I know what my civic rights/duties/etc. are.
Since I am a member of the Catholic Church, I know what my moral obligations are.

I refuse to think that the only moral choice is to vote for someone who has past political ties with Planned Parenthood, who policies are eerily similar to Obama's and who most people describe as "the lesser of two evils"


Evil is evil is evil is evil.

The ends do not justify the means.
[/quote]
[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346808453' post='2478523']



I cannot in good conscience vote for either of these candidates.
[/quote]
[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346810618' post='2478565']
Given that you have no idea of anything about me think that's an awful lot of words spouting forth from your fingers. I didn't read it all I stopped at "god save me from idealists. "

You should read Chesterton.

Am I young? Yeah. Am I idealistic? I'll grant that to you because I do think that if more people voted what they actually believed it would make some difference. Do I think a third party candidate could win this election? No. Do I think I should vote for a candidate whose record is full of policies that are 1) contrary to what I think a presidents should be and 2) contrary to what he is currently saying his policies are/will be. Heck no.
[/quote]
[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346812203' post='2478580']


I've actually already given several quite freely.
have you looked at MAs healthcare? Romney has no problem defending it. Confusing because it's crazy similar to the one that Obama passed. So... Obama's is not ok and romneys is. At the same time.

If a person wants to make the issue of abortion important then they need to back it with their votes. If you'll notice, Romney's exception doesn't stop at "in cases of rape or incest". He also adds "or when the mother's Health is in jeopardy.". There an no explanations as to what that means/who determines that, etc.

Also did you notice during the RNC he said "I will not increase taxes on the middle class". Great. Who's getting the tax increase?
Have you ever looked at his spending policy while he was governor of MA?

And for those who think Ryan will make it better how do you justify him saying that he sometimes has to vote against his own values so that later he can vote for them. What? That doesn't even make sense.

I have no Internet, only a phone and my family's about to pray so that's all I can do for now.
[/quote]
[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346791999' post='2478403']


I think it's interesting that so many Catholics can say "abortion in cases of rape or incest is never ok" or "the end doesn't justify the means"


Until the political party with which theyd like to attach themselves refuses to budge on such things. In that case it's "well it's lesser of two evils" or "I don't want to waste my vote". The lesser of two evils is still EVIL. Any number of the political decisions that Romney has made Are neither morally or politically agreeable. His plan for MA's healthcare is the model on which obama's was built. And you really think he's going to repeal it? Paul Ryan voted for the bailouts and yet claims to be pro small government.

Wasting a vote is voting for a candidate you neither like not trust and whose policies are neither politically or ethically acceptable. Keep voting for the major parties and nothing will ever change.
[/quote]
[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346804933' post='2478472']
Politics are not passive. People should vote. Even if they vote for third party. Imagine if all the people who dislike either candidate actually did vote third party. It's doubtful that that candidate would get elected, but it would show that people are willing to deflect from these parties and some folks have been loyal democrats or yellow dog republicans for DECADES. To lose votes is to lose money and more importantly power. There's nothing that Republicans or Democrats like worse than money, except for losing power.
[/quote]


Do I think it will immediately productive? No. Not this election. Maybe not next time either. But I think it's way more productive to vote for someone you can morally, ethically, socially, econimically, and politically agree with than to just settle for the candidate who just not quite as bad the other.


The moral stuff I don't agree with is probably the same stuff you don't agree with.

Abortion/planned parenthood, HHS, embroynic stem cell research, etc.

[PhuturePriest]

I never really liked Ron Paul since my mother always told me that he was an idiot, but after listening to what he actually has to say I like it a lot. I honestly think voting for a 3rd party candidate (Gary Johnson, for instance) would send a message to the GOP, even if the 3rd party candidate loses. This two-party system needs to end whether the two parties like it or not. There are more options than liberal or even more liberal, and the American public doesn't know it.

[Papist]

[quote name='missionseeker' timestamp='1346974953' post='2479559']
I guess the great thing about pm is that when I feel like I'm just repeating myself I can just quote myself and save the trouble typing....








Do I think it will immediately productive? No. Not this election. Maybe not next time either. But I think it's way more productive to vote for someone you can morally, ethically, socially, econimically, and politically agree with than to just settle for the candidate who just not quite as bad the other.


The moral stuff I don't agree with is probably the same stuff you don't agree with.

Abortion/planned parenthood, HHS, embroynic stem cell research, etc.
[/quote]
You lightly touched on abortion re Romney. That's it. Nothing re Obama or Paul. So then you agree with Paul on his position on "Abortion/planned parenthood, HHS, embroynic stem cell research, etc."

[Socrates]

[quote name='TheUbiquitous' timestamp='1346742737' post='2478208']
... nor Democrat.

This is, naturally, a false equivalency, but it is an important reminder. It is easily conceded that better-formed consciences will recognize that the GOP platform taken broadly, abstractly and squinting a little is theoretically moral whereas the Democratic platform, no matter how much you squint, is absolutely not.

However, we cannot mistake political convenience with co-belligerence, nor begin to identify partisan conservatism with Catholic political teaching just because Republicans so far get the two clearest non-negotiables clearly right.

This is one issue which would be healed with more Democrats like Rebecca Hamilton, but that's probably another issue.

[center]-----[/center]

(This has been a message from the Committee to Elect Sargeant Shriver / Al Smith.)
[/quote]
Catholic does not equal any political party, in America or elsewhere. To make such an equation would utterly demean and belittle the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith, which is far above and beyond human politics.

That said, I agree (and it should be obvious to any informed Catholic) that the current Democratic Party at the national level cannot be supported by any Catholic in good conscience.


Regarding voting third party and such . . . There is obviously nothing inherently wrong or immoral about voting for a third-party candidate, but I think prudence is required. Like it or not, the reality is that there is currently no third-party candidate with any chance of winning. If there was a good strong third-party candidate in place with a solid coalition built around him, that would be another matter, but this election, there is not.

Imo, our country simply cannot afford four more years of Obama, and the severe long-term damage to our nation that would entail. Getting Obama out of the White House takes first priority. This simply isn't the year to vote simply to "send a message" or "punish the GOP establishment. The damage done by a second Obama term will simply be too great.

I'm not a huge Romney fan, but he's still far preferable to Obama (which really isn't saying a hell of a lot). I voted for Ron Paul in both this year's state primary, and in the 2008 state primary (I'm not on board with Paul on everything, but believe him a lesser evil to Romney, who in turn is a lesser evil to Obama). However, now that Romney is nominated, we need to be realistic, and get Obama out of there. (Then pressure Romney like hell to stay to the right, and work on getting a real conservative nominated next election).

The hard reality is that if the hard-core conservative and libertarian vote this year is spread out between various obscure third-party candidates and folks staying home election day, it will only guarantee four more years of Barrack Obama, and his disastrous and immoral misrule. That's something we just can't afford.

I know I'll probably be denounced as a godless pragmatist and a "consequentialist" (whatever that means) for this post, but blithely disregarding the likely actual consequences of one's voting is not virtuous or heroic, but just stupid. Prudence is also a virtue.

As to those liberty-minded folks who would prefer four more years of Dear Leader, I can only say their stomach for statism and socialism is a lot stronger than my own.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1346808535' post='2478526']
Emmaberry, the " fines " are to be used to cover the " tax " you would not be paying. If you refuse to pay both the tax and the fine, the only way to effectively opt out of paying for abortion and abortifacients, then you go to jail.

ed
[/quote]
Imho, this in itself is reason why Obama must go.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1346978350' post='2479583']
Imho, this in itself is reason why Obama must go.
[/quote]
There's a reason the Supremes did their ridiculous dance. It ain't going away.

[4588686]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1346977899' post='2479579']
As to those liberty-minded folks who would prefer four more years of Dear Leader, I can only say their stomach for statism and socialism is a lot stronger than my own.
[/quote]


In what world are you not a 'statist?'

[missionseeker]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1346976921' post='2479572']
You lightly touched on abortion re Romney. That's it. Nothing re Obama or Paul. So then you agree with Paul on his position on "Abortion/planned parenthood, HHS, embroynic stem cell research, etc."
[/quote]

Do I really have to delve more deeply into the abortion/Obama thing?

I never said I was voting for Paul. I said I was not voting for Romney or Obama. Because their policies are not acceptable (and their records are worse). I don't know that much about Paul, tbh. Mostly since about January, I've been thinking whether or not "the lesser of two evils" is a way that I can vote. I have come to the conclusion recently that it, in fact, is not. I've not done enough research of Ron Paul to decide whether I will vote for him. But I will not vote for someone who, from all past records and current indications has no intention of promoting the basic things that this country's law is based upon.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='FuturePriest387' timestamp='1346975232' post='2479561']
I never really liked Ron Paul since my mother always told me that he was an idiot, but after listening to what he actually has to say I like it a lot. I honestly think voting for a 3rd party candidate (Gary Johnson, for instance) would send a message to the GOP, even if the 3rd party candidate loses. This two-party system needs to end whether the two parties like it or not. There are more options than liberal or even more liberal, and the American public doesn't know it.
[/quote]

you can't vote til yer 18 anyway. ya gots about 6 years to go...

[emmaberry]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1346932009' post='2479347']
Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but are you essentially saying "people don't agree with me, so I'm going to leave this alone until I'm proven right and I know you all secretly <3 Obama"?
[/quote]

Nope! I got what I wanted out of the main person I was debating: ie that the third party vote is not the only legitimate Catholic vote in the 2012 election.

I said I'd come back in November so we can look at stats on the third party vote's contribution to the current President.

[BG45]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346986557' post='2479661']
Nope! I got what I wanted out of the main person I was debating: ie that the third party vote is not the only legitimate Catholic vote in the 2012 election.

I said I'd come back in November so we can look at stats on the third party vote's contribution to the current President.
[/quote]

Ah okay, sorry for the misunderstanding on my part then.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346986557' post='2479661']
Nope! I got what I wanted out of the main person I was debating: ie that the third party vote is not the only legitimate Catholic vote in the 2012 election.

I said I'd come back in November so we can look at stats on the third party vote's contribution to the current President.
[/quote]

Come back in 4 years and we'll see what Obamney did and whether it was wise to support such treacherous candidates.

[emmaberry]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1346990917' post='2479683']
Come back in 4 years and we'll see what Obamney did and whether it was wise to support such treacherous candidates.
[/quote]

Hopefully in 4 years I will be praying full-time for our messed up nation.

I've come to a nice little bow-wrapped conclusion on the third party vote in this thread..

I will still be here in November (no boo's) though. Oh man will this place be crazy at that point.

[Nihil Obstat]

Today the State uses democracy (victim participation in his own plunder), liberalism (leash the State to make it more palatable), conservatism (unleash the State against 'enemies'--commies or capitalists, perverts or straights, heretics or orthodox believers, difference 1 or difference 2), and other nostrums, snake-oil or anti-concepts to beguile its victims into accepting continued plunder (taxation), murder (war and execution), and slavery (conscription and taxation again.

--Samuel Edward Konkin III

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='emmaberry' timestamp='1346993383' post='2479700']
Hopefully in 4 years I will be praying full-time for our messed up nation.[/quote]

Given the two major candidates and the continued insistence to maintain the status quo, prayers will indeed me needed. I don't hope for the worst, but I certainly expect it.

[quote]I've come to a nice little bow-wrapped conclusion on the third party vote in this thread..[/quote]

It's been re-affirmed for me that the two party supporters are banking on wishful thinking and mis-application of a voting [u][i][b]guide[/b][/i][/u].



I do actually hope that I'm quote wrong on Romney........and you and others can come back and point out how terribly wrong I was..........However I refuse to let my wishful thinking override my logistics. I can't bring myself to fall to a pure emotional argument. The gut call says I'm right, and that America LOSES MAJORLY in 2012 if Obamney makes it into office. Therefore, join the Revolution!

For a Revolution to succeed, you need about 30% support ...

[b]Restore America Now! [/b]

[4588686]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' timestamp='1346995094' post='2479712']

For a Revolution to succeed, you need about 30% support ...

[b]Restore America Now! [/b]
[/quote]


Libertarian-Socialism FTW!!!

[4588686]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkaO12X-h1Y&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkaO12X-h1Y&feature=related[/url]