Pope Francis (can We Have A Sensible Discussion?)

[Papist]

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Edited March 18, 2013 by Papist

[Noel's angel]

I have decided to continue saying him until he corrects me himself. :|

 

I'm a female.

[Noel's angel]

You've started at least one (I believe more) talking about Pope Francis and liturgical concerns.  Most of the posts of yours I have seen in the past few days have in some way referenced that topic.  This thread is about shoes.  Different topic (which might connect somewhat.  

 

Actually, it's about more than just shoes. The shoes were an example.

[Apotheoun]

You're missing the connection. St Augustine was a sinner who had a great transformation and later became a Bishop. What we're talking about is looking at a Bishop's record and discussing how well it will predict future actions. The latter is not absolute but it makes sense that if a Bishop were unfavorable to a particular practice he would also be unfavorable to it if he were relocated to another jurisdication. It is also possible that a change can take place, and sometimes worthy of being hoped for :)

I can understand your concern, because many Eastern Christians would argue that St. Augustine did not fully break with his past at least as it concerns certain theories related to the sinfulness of human nature (i.e., that mankind is a mass damnata, that children are born sinful, etc.), which appear to have more affinities to Manichaeism than to the teaching of the pre-Augustinian Church Fathers.

 

Nevertheless, I think you should be hopeful that the liturgical reforms instituted in the Roman Church by Pope Benedict will remain in place, that is, at least until there are indications that the opposite is true.

[Lil Red]

About those Red Shoes:

http://catholicexchange.com/red-shoes-and-the-room-of-tears/

[Lil Red]

http://amywelborn.wordpress.com/2013/03/17/a-word/

Amy Welborn with her two cents:

 

There is much more to say on liturgy, and plenty of people are saying it, mostly from positions of uncertainty and fear.  I have nothing to say about those specific worries because it’s all a complete unknown at this point.  Who knows what will happen.  My hope is that there are clearly huge problems in the Church that need attention.  The liturgy, as reset by Benedict, is not one of those problems, but that’s just the way it seems to me. 

 

But one more comment on those conversations – the reactions to the reactions to the reactions  - that are flying about.  Here’s what is important to remember.  The “changes” that Benedict made to the liturgical direction of the Church are not expressions of his aesthetic or taste.  What Benedict did was to implement the Church’s liturgy in the Church’s  practice.   There are documents.  Decrees and such.  Books.  Rubrics.    Believe it or not, Benedict’s reset button was really nothing more than pointing us to what we are supposed to be doing anyway.   If you don’t believe me, read them yourself.  There is a deeper theological and spiritual reasoning and structure as well, but really, the basic goal was: fidelity to what the Church offers.  If you read Ratzinger on liturgy,  his thinking is quite pastoral.  It basically comes down to: Every Catholic has the right to the  Church’s liturgy. 

[Noel's angel]

No offertory procession at his installation Mass, only 6 Cardinals will make the pledge of obedience, the Pope won't distribute Holy Communion, his ring his gold plated silver and has not been made for him....
This makes my face very sad.

[Lilllabettt]

thats all logistical stuff. Traditionally Franciscans use silver, not gold.

[Noel's angel]

But he isn't a Fransiscan...he may have taken the name Francis but it doesn't change that fact.

[Apotheoun]

thats all logistical liturgical stuff. Traditionally Franciscans use silver, not gold.

:hehe2:

[franciscanheart]

But he isn't a Fransiscan...he may have taken the name Francis but it doesn't change that fact.

Doesn't mean he can't live like one.

[Noel's angel]

Papal traditions don't appear to matter to him, so I can't imagine why Fransiscan traditions should.

[PhuturePriest]

Papal traditions don't appear to matter to him, so I can't imagine why Fransiscan traditions should.

 

You are taking great offenses at nothing. It's a ring. Do you think Saint Peter had a ring, a funny hat, and a cape? He didn't. Was he a heretical Pope because he didn't follow man-made traditions?

Edited March 18, 2013 by FuturePriest387

[Guest Allie]

from the Poor Clares Barhamsville blog:

 

Is he a Franciscan Jesuit or a Jesuit Franciscan?  The debate I had with myself over this question ended with this conclusion:  in essence, Pope Francis is a Jesuit, hence “Jesuit” should be a noun, but he is now qualified by his name, hence the Franciscan adjective.  Those of us who belong to either the Jesuit or Franciscan tradition have to smile at how our new pope is living up to another of his names:  pontiff which comes from a Latin word meaning “bridge”.  For centuries, a friendly rivalry (and sometimes a not so friendly rivalry) has existed between our two religious families.  But here in one man, the traditions are united.  That is what a bridge does; it unites what otherwise might be divided.

 

As we read together a resume of Pope Francis’ life, we were amazed at how he himself is also a bridge between other points of divergence.  He is a Roman Cardinal that was born in the Eastern Rite.  His parents were from the Old World, but he was born and raised in the New.  He was trained in the pre-conciliar era, but ordained after the Vatican Council.  He has a degree as a chemical technician, but then became a priest who taught psychology and literature.  Pope Francis is not a narrow bridge.  Rather he brings to the papacy a broad range of experiences:  professor, novice master, provincial superior, parish priest, spiritual director, pastoral bishop.  He has had to work under a totalitarian regime like John Paul II and suffered criticism for not speaking out publicly while acting privately to rescue political victims like Pius XII.  We have here a Cardinal that cooks and now a Pope who rides buses. 

 

It is said that Cardinal Bergoglio was offered a position in the Vatican, but declined on the grounds that he would die in the Curia.  Being head of the Curia now we hope and pray that he will have a long and fruitful service; and that he will make the Roman Curia more livable, not only for himself but for the whole Church.  Through the intercession of our Holy Father SAINT Francis, may it be so!

[Apotheoun]

People are taking great offenses at nothing. It's a ring. Do you think Saint Peter had a ring, a funny hat, and a cape? He didn't. Was he a heretical Pope because he didn't follow man-made traditions?

Look, I am not a Roman Catholic, but I can sympathize with the traditionally minded Roman Catholics, because the pope's ring is a unique sign of his office, and it is destroyed upon his death. Tradition will die if people simply change everything.