I Went To A Latin Mass

[PhuturePriest]

It is the Catholic Church in that region and so, yes, I expect a lot of it. If the worship of the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church in a particular region cannot be reverent then it follows that something is terribly wrong with the Church in question.

 

Of course. I wasn't doubting any of that. As a person that loves the Church and may be a Priest of the Church one day, it greatly troubles me that regions such as Los Angeles (How about we just use the entire State of California so we can be more accurate?) are so irreverent. We should do everything we can in regions like that.

[ToJesusMyHeart]

Actually, I've been to two. One when I was much younger and couldn't read, so I especially couldn't pay attention. But using your logic, and I say that just because the Latin Mass is accepted, it doesn't mean every single one is done reverently. Yes, there are abuses in the Novus Ordo. But my problem is that people that hold to the Latin Mass have a sense of "The Latin Mass is superior because it's in Latin". And whether you think it is or not, a lot of traditionalists (And I'm a traditionalist) believe that it is superior to the Novus Ordo. That's how schisms and divisions happen in the Church.

Nobody here has said that stuff about Latin Mass being superior since it's in Latin. We're saying that abuses happen a heck of a lot more often in the novus ordo masses than in the extraordinary masses.

 

Also, "traditionalist" has a ton of different meanings, and I'm fairly certain that you're not a traditionalist in the way that most traditionalist Catholics define "traditionalist."

 

It's Los Angeles. Can you really expect much?

Yes. We should always expect our priests and bishops to show the utmost reverence to the Mass. 

[Apotheoun]

Let me put it this way . . . for the ancient Church Fathers the liturgy was held to be the apex of the Christian life, because it is the recapitulation of Christ's saving work made manifest under the veil of sacred signs. As such, the liturgy is the source of all grace that comes to man upon earth, even to those who - through either vincible or invincible ignorance - have not united themselves to Christ and His body the Church. Sadly the liturgy has become in many cases a source of error in the Church, and that is a sign that something has gone terribly wrong and that it needs immediate correction. If a bishop is unwilling to correct the problems in his own diocese, then perhaps he should step aside so that a true man of God can be made bishop and bring the people of God in that particular area back to the faith once for all delivered to the saints, the faith that is made manifest in the Church's liturgical celebrations.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Nihil Obstat]

Let me put it this way . . . for the ancient Church Fathers the liturgy was held to be the apex of the Christian life, because it is the recapitulation of Christ's saving work made manifest under the veil of sacred signs. As such, the liturgy is the source of all grace that comes to man upon earth, even to those who - through either vincible or invincible ignorance - have not united themselves to Christ and His body the Church. That the liturgy has become in many cases a source of error in the Church is a sign that something has gone terribly wrong and that it needs immediate correction. If a bishop is unwilling to correct the problems in his own diocese, then perhaps he should step aside so that a true man of God can be made bishop and bring the people of God in that particular area back to the faith once for all delivered to the saints, the faith that is made manifest in the Church's liturgical celebrations.

Save the Liturgy, save the world.

[PhuturePriest]

Nobody here has said that stuff about Latin Mass being superior since it's in Latin. We're saying that abuses happen a heck of a lot more often in the novus ordo masses than in the extraordinary masses.

 

Also, "traditionalist" has a ton of different meanings, and I'm fairly certain that you're not a traditionalist in the way that most traditionalist Catholics define "traditionalist."

 

Yes. We should always expect our priests and bishops to show the utmost reverence to the Mass. 

 

I know you haven't. But I've seen a lot of people do it. And of course there are a heck of a lot more abuses in the Novus Ordo than in the Extraordinary form. There are probably ten thousand Novus Ordo Masses for every ten Latin Masses.

I honestly detest the term "traditional Catholic", and the term "modern Catholic". You're either Catholic, or you aren't. You either hold to the teachings, or you don't. It's as simple as that. I'm a Catholic that loves Gregorian chant, Latin prayers (I love when there are Latin prayers used in the Novus Ordo), cassocks, surplices, beautiful churches full of statues and paintings, and all the like. Being a traditionalist doesn't mean you prefer the Latin Mass anyway. I've never seen any traditionalist claim that.

[Luigi]

Back when all Masses were celebrated in Latin, there were just as many abuses as you see in the novus ordo these days. Old-timers in my family tell me that men would get up at the end of the Gospel, go outside, and smoke through the homily, then come back in for the rest of the Mass. children squirmed in pews. Ladies fainted from the heat in the summer and had to be revived & taken out of church. People prayed the rosary or recited prayers from holy cards while the Mass was being celebrated. 

 

IF the Extraordinary form is more reverent than the novus ordo these days - and I'm not saying it is - I would attribute it to the fact that Extraordinary-formers beehave reverently in church whereas we unwashed masses of average Catholics still behave the way the unwashed masses behaved back when the Latin Mass was the norm. 

 

It doesn't have anything to do with the Mass - it has to do with the people. 

[Apotheoun]

The liturgy is the salvation of the world, because it recapitulates all that Christ said and did for humanity. The liturgy contains the anamnesis of Christ's life, His passion, death, resurrection, ascension into heaven, and even His glorious second coming. The liturgy is the Parousia of Christ lived by His body the Church throughout time and in all places.

[PhuturePriest]

FP, you just went to your first Latin Mass...have you ever attended an irreverent Latin Mass?

 

I think you may be missing the point...just because the Novus Ordo is accepted, doesn't mean every Novus Ordo Mass is reverent. In fact, Pope Benedict XVI tried to clean up a lot of it. ToJesusMyHeart made a good point-- a Mass can be valid, but it doesn't mean it's glorifying God in all that it can...

 

And I didn't catch this at first, but the Novus Ordo Mass IS reverent! There are abuses that happen in it, but that doesn't mean the Mass itself is irreverent. That means the Priest doing the Mass has, either purposefully or (Hopefully) ignorantly done something wrong.

[PhuturePriest]

Back when all Masses were celebrated in Latin, there were just as many abuses as you see in the novus ordo these days. Old-timers in my family tell me that men would get up at the end of the Gospel, go outside, and smoke through the homily, then come back in for the rest of the Mass. children squirmed in pews. Ladies fainted from the heat in the summer and had to be revived & taken out of church. People prayed the rosary or recited prayers from holy cards while the Mass was being celebrated. 

 

IF the Extraordinary form is more reverent than the novus ordo these days - and I'm not saying it is - I would attribute it to the fact that Extraordinary-formers beehave reverently in church whereas we unwashed masses of average Catholics still behave the way the unwashed masses behaved back when the Latin Mass was the norm. 

 

It doesn't have anything to do with the Mass - it has to do with the people. 

 

This. Oh my word, this.

[PhuturePriest]

In France before Vatican II, the weekly Mass attendance was 10%. And of course, you have such things as is mentioned by Luigi going on.

[ChristinaTherese]

Also, it takes extra effort to attend or celebrate (Is that the right word?) the EF, so it's bound to have less abuse.

[Apotheoun]

Back when all Masses were celebrated in Latin, there were just as many abuses as you see in the novus ordo these days. Old-timers in my family tell me that men would get up at the end of the Gospel, go outside, and smoke through the homily, then come back in for the rest of the Mass. children squirmed in pews. Ladies fainted from the heat in the summer and had to be revived & taken out of church. People prayed the rosary or recited prayers from holy cards while the Mass was being celebrated. 

 

IF the Extraordinary form is more reverent than the novus ordo these days - and I'm not saying it is - I would attribute it to the fact that Extraordinary-formers beehave reverently in church whereas we unwashed masses of average Catholics still behave the way the unwashed masses behaved back when the Latin Mass was the norm. 

 

It doesn't have anything to do with the Mass - it has to do with the people. 

Getting up and going outside during the liturgy is not an abuse. In Eastern Orthodox Churches the liturgy can last (if Orthros is a part of it) for more than three hours and people come and go throughout the liturgy. Women get up and take their kids outside to play, and men leave in order to go to work or do chores, but the rites are celebrated without the priest or the people altering the texts or having music sung to try and entertain the people present. 

 

In my eighteen years as a Latin Catholic I saw plenty of nonsense (clowns, rock music, kids sitting around the altar, kids on roller skates, a priest handing out cotton balls - that he called warm fuzzies - for people to share during the homily, etc.) during mass, but I never once saw what I would call a liturgical abuse in a Mass celebrated according to the Extraordinary Form. St. Margaret Mary's in Oakland was the only parish that celebrated the older mass until a few years ago, but it celebrated it on a weekly basis and I saw enough of them to say that it was celebrated according to the norms set forth in the missal. I cannot say the same about any of the Ordinary Form liturgies I attended during the same time period.

 

Postscript: Just to be clear I have not mentioned the worst things that happened during the Ordinary Form Masses I attended.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Apotheoun

[Luigi]

Getting up and going outside during the liturgy is not an abuse. In Eastern Orthodox Churches the liturgy can last (if Orthros is a part of it) for more than three hours and people come and go throughout the liturgy. Women get up and take their kids outside to play, and men leave in order to go to work or do chores, but the rites are celebrated without the priest or the people altering the texts or having music to try and entertain the people present. 

 

In my eighteen years as a Latin Catholic I saw plenty of nonsense (clowns, rock music, kids sitting around the altar, kids on roller skates, a priest handing out cotton balls - that he called warm fuzzies - for people to share during the homily, etc.) during mass, but I never once saw what I would call a liturgical abuse in a Mass celebrated according to the Extraordinary Form. St. Margaret Mary's in Oakland was the only parish that celebrated the older mass until a few years ago, but it celebrated it on a weekly basis and I saw enough of them to say that it was celebrated according to the norms set forth in the missal. I cannot say the same about any of the Ordinary Form liturgies I attended during the same time period.

 

Postscript: Just to be clear I have not mentioned the worst things that happened during the Ordinary Form Masses I attended.

I don't know where you live, but in my diocese, I've never seen a clown Mass, kids on roller skates, or a priest handing out cotton balls. I have heard music that was too "rock" for my taste, but I wouldn't say it was irreverent music. And I have seen kids - and adults - standing around the altar. 

 

I've been to Mass in Notre Dame cathedral (Paris), St. Peter's (Rome), the cathedrals of Florence and Siena (Italy), the tombs of St. Francis and St. Clare in Assisi and St. Dominic in Bologna, the Seattle cathedral, the Blackfriars parish in Kilkenny, Ireland (800 years of Dominican pastors, even through the English persecutions), in the chapel of Polish Resurrectionist sisters in Rome, in churches of every style across the US, in high school gyms, in my grandmother's living room, at my mother's dining room table, on the bank of a river during a canoe trip, in an outdoor amphitheater kind of place during summer camp, and under a picnic pavilion in a state park in Kentucky because there was no Catholic church in which the faithful could gather. 

 

I've participated in Masses celebrated in Latin, English, French, Italian, and Spanish. The music has been a capella chant, organ-based, guitar (American folk style and Spanish folk style), written by Marin Luther, French classical composers, the St. Louis Jesuits, Marty Haugen & David Haas (spelling?), and unknowns from my own parish, and everyone in between.

 

And they've all been reverent. Because the priest was reverent and I was reverent.

 

 

It's not the style of the Mass - it's the attitude of the people.  

[PhuturePriest]

Also, it takes extra effort to attend or celebrate (Is that the right word?) the EF, so it's bound to have less abuse.

 

Really? Because I personally found it quite easy to lean back and think about nothing during the Extraordinary Form, because without the book I didn't know what he was saying. In fact, I found it a temptation to do this rather than read the book.

[ChristinaTherese]

Really? Because I personally found it quite easy to lean back and think about nothing during the Extraordinary Form, because without the book I didn't know what he was saying. In fact, I found it a temptation to do this rather than read the book.

But the default option of where to go is generally Novus Ordo. That's what I meant.