I Went To A Latin Mass

[PhuturePriest]

But the default option of where to go is generally Novus Ordo. That's what I meant.

 

I know. But I don't see how that makes the Latin Mass automatically have less abuse. If I were a lukewarm Catholic with a parish that celebrated the Extraordinary Form and the Novus Ordo, I would choose to go to the Extraordinary Form, because I wouldn't have to pay attention and I would look holier for going to it since there is such a stereotype that since you go to the Extraordinary Form you are automatically a smart Catholic that can pray the Rosary backwards in Latin.

[Nihil Obstat]

I know. But I don't see how that makes the Latin Mass automatically have less abuse. If I were a lukewarm Catholic with a parish that celebrated the Extraordinary Form and the Novus Ordo, I would choose to go to the Extraordinary Form, because I wouldn't have to pay attention and I would look holier for going to it since there is such a stereotype that since you go to the Extraordinary Form you are automatically a smart Catholic that can pray the Rosary backwards in Latin.

Obviously you would not have intended it, but I read some projecting into this post.

[PhuturePriest]

Obviously you would not have intended it, but I read some projecting into this post.

 

Well, I'm tired so I'm not able to put what I mean into words as much as I want to be able to, but there is a stereotype that because you go to Latin Mass you're a devout person.

[Nihil Obstat]

Well, I'm tired so I'm not able to put what I mean into words as much as I want to be able to, but there is a stereotype that because you go to Latin Mass you're a devout person.

If that stereotype does exist, then who perpetuates it? And to what end?

[PhuturePriest]

If that stereotype does exist, then who perpetuates it? And to what end?

 

To be honest, I've seen hardcore traditionalist Catholics use it for themselves. I've seen hardcore traditional Catholics say that they are superior because they go to the Latin Mass, and that Latin Mass parishes are more devout and holy by virtue of being Latin Mass parishes. I know not all traditionalist Catholics do this. I'm a traditionalist, and I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if the Pope decided the Latin Mass was to be the norm again. But I've seen so many extremists for the Latin Mass, and not only does it look bad on them, it looks bad on the faith as a whole.

[TheLordsSouljah]

it was probably a low Mass. God to a high Mass and you'll change your opinion.

[Nihil Obstat]

To be honest, I've seen hardcore traditionalist Catholics use it for themselves. I've seen hardcore traditional Catholics say that they are superior because they go to the Latin Mass, and that Latin Mass parishes are more devout and holy by virtue of being Latin Mass parishes. I know not all traditionalist Catholics do this. I'm a traditionalist, and I wouldn't throw a hissy fit if the Pope decided the Latin Mass was to be the norm again. But I've seen so many extremists for the Latin Mass, and not only does it look bad on them, it looks bad on the faith as a whole.

:idontknow: I have never once seen that in actual parish communities. Not once. But what are anecdotes? Mostly worthless. 

It sounds like you are trying to establish a certain pattern of traditionalist Catholic to set yourself up against. Why?

[PhuturePriest]

:idontknow: I have never once seen that in actual parish communities. Not once. But what are anecdotes? Mostly worthless. 

It sounds like you are trying to establish a certain pattern of traditionalist Catholic to set yourself up against. Why?

 

I honestly don't know. I'm tired and my emotions are crazy, and I have work tomorrow, so I should probably sleep.

[EmilyAnn]

Back when all Masses were celebrated in Latin, there were just as many abuses as you see in the novus ordo these days. Old-timers in my family tell me that men would get up at the end of the Gospel, go outside, and smoke through the homily, then come back in for the rest of the Mass. children squirmed in pews. Ladies fainted from the heat in the summer and had to be revived & taken out of church. People prayed the rosary or recited prayers from holy cards while the Mass was being celebrated. 

 

IF the Extraordinary form is more reverent than the novus ordo these days - and I'm not saying it is - I would attribute it to the fact that Extraordinary-formers beehave reverently in church whereas we unwashed masses of average Catholics still behave the way the unwashed masses behaved back when the Latin Mass was the norm. 

 

It doesn't have anything to do with the Mass - it has to do with the people. 

This. Nowadays, the EF self-selects for reverence. 

Honestly, I'm with Miles on this. Yes, I am lucky that the parishes I attend are wonderfully reverent. But there is a general attitude sometimes that one who goes to an EF Mass and is not "oh dear me, this is wonderful and I will never go to an OF Mass again because this is so much better" is somehow wrong and less devout/reverent/etc. Even in this thread, people who have experienced this attitude are being treated as though that experience is invalid and they must have some sinister ulterior motive. "Go to more Masses and you'll change your opinion" is another example - it gives the impression that one is wrong and just needs to go to more Masses in order to see it. I am of course not saying that everyone who attends the EF Mass is like this, but it is a trend I have noticed in discussions.

[PhuturePriest]

This. Nowadays, the EF self-selects for reverence. 

Honestly, I'm with Miles on this. Yes, I am lucky that the parishes I attend are wonderfully reverent. But there is a general attitude sometimes that one who goes to an EF Mass and is not "oh dear me, this is wonderful and I will never go to an OF Mass again because this is so much better" is somehow wrong and less devout/reverent/etc. Even in this thread, people who have experienced this attitude are being treated as though that experience is invalid and they must have some sinister ulterior motive. "Go to more Masses and you'll change your opinion" is another example - it gives the impression that one is wrong and just needs to go to more Masses in order to see it. I am of course not saying that everyone who attends the EF Mass is like this, but it is a trend I have noticed in discussions.

 

Never once have you said those words. I'm going to screen-save this...

[NonNovi]

FP, of course TLM isn't some kind of magical mystery box that blows your mind as soon as you open it. On the contrary, at first it is very confusing. I remember my first time 5 years ago, I just couldn't find the right page because it just went too fast for me to follow. But I liked it anyway, because things were so differently done, with so much respect and somewhat mystery. TLM is just like the catholic faith, it requires a lot of effort to understand it. You must actively inform yourself, outside of Mass. Yes, it requires that you occupy yourself with Mass even outside Mass! It's not like you can just walk in to check things out and understand what it's all about, then you will react like you do now. You're not impressed, mainly because you don't know enough about it (I assume, correct me if I'm wrong).

 

I don't really get everything what has been said here about reverence. First of all, what people do during Mass is irrelevant, that doesn't change how reverent the priest celebrates Mass. If they go out to smoke, or mentally wander off in the pew, it doesn't matter. Calling that an abuse that also happened at TLM back in the days is just not right. I'm not saying it's the best thing they can do, but it doesn't effect the reverence of Mass, NOM or TLM. Even a priest's private Mass, without people, is/should be reverent.

 

I don't think anybody here rejects the idea that an NOM can be done reverently. But I think a lot of the people here also have seen many NOM's that just weren't very reverent. That's sadly how the situation is today. We are very lucky if we are able to attend an NOM that is celebrated with reverence. But just assuming things can just as easily be the other way around is wrong in my opinion.

 

Some people here are mixing up the personal attitude of people attending TLM and the reverence of the TLM itself. Going to TLM doesn't make you a better catholic. I know there are people who make it look like that, but does that make it true? You are the only one who can make you a better catholic (with some help from upstairs of course). But that has nothing to do with the fact that TLM itself just is created to be reverent. Every gesture, every prayer, every symbol just breathes reverence (but you might not see that if you don't know the meaning behind those things). And TLM doesn't leave room for interpretation, a priest celebrating TLM always and everywhere has to do the same things. Even if he tries to do it not reverent, he still has to make gestures and say prayers that make it reverent. I'm very curious to hear some examples of abuses or irreverence during TLM (that's an honest question, I do am curious, I don't exclude completely it's possible).

 

That's not the case in NOM. A lot of the gestures and prayers were abandoned, or at least nobody cares anymore to learn them to the new priests or to do them during Mass. Or to correct priests doing it wrong. That's why NOM in itself isn't irreverent, but the past decades there has been this attitude of just letting everyone do what they wanted, wich leads to new generations of priests following what they saw in their youth. As for myself, I attend more NOM's than TLM's. At the Belgian SJM monastery, where I kind of live half of the time now, daily Mass is NOM. There is just one TLM a week, on sunday evening. But the NOM is celebrated with so much reverence and eye for tradition, the difference between NOM and TLM becomes very small. In fact, the SJM try to keep as much elements from TLM as possible and allowed in their NOM's. Let's not forget, the NOM is derived from the TLM, it's very easy to show some continuity by celebrating NOM with the mindset of TLM.

 

I mean, what do you think these are? TLM or NOM?

[NonNovi]

The music is supposed to bring you into a prayerful mindset, but the songs chosen were so long that you were praying they would end before too long.

 

At TLM, it isn't. The "songs" aren't chosen, they ARE the prayers of that Mass! But I guess you didn't know that... ;)
 

[ToJesusMyHeart]

I love properly done Novus ordo masses. 

 

 

I just haven't experienced that in like 5 years. So it seems impossible to me.

 

Show me a reverent NO mass and I'll rejoice. Every TLM Mass I attend is perfect. Thus, my favor lies with it. It gives more reverence to God than the NO masses I've been to. Sure, they're both valid, but one gives more respect to God because the other is full of disgusting abuses (in my experience).

[MIKolbe]

I often wonder if there is a parallel between the quote from BL. JPII hoping the church could breathe with both lungs, and the two forms of the Mass... perhaps attendance in both forms would foster a deeper love of liturgy, Christ, and his Church?

[MIKolbe]

I often wonder if there is a parallel between the quote from BL. JPII hoping the church could breathe with both lungs, and the two forms of the Mass... perhaps attendance in both forms would foster a deeper love of liturgy, Christ, and his Church?