Is It Wrong For Men To Be Shirtless In The Presence Of Women?

[Gabriela]

Have you actually seen it? Because I have tried for over an hour now to find photos of it, and I can't find anything.

 

I even went so far as to open up Google maps and take a trip around the block, virtually, looking at it from every angle. Google also finds photos of the building and hovers icons there, which you can pop open to see other people's photos of what you are looking at. The back side of the church is almost completely blank, and has no figural carving at all. The only crucifix on the outside is the one I showed a picture of. Are you sure you're thinking of the right church?

 

Take a look at what I mean:

 

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Sagrada+Familia,+Barcelona,+Spain&hl=en&ll=41.404147,2.174024&spn=0.001288,0.00327&sll=46.44186,-93.36129&sspn=9.631618,26.784668&oq=sagrada+familia&hq=Sagrada+Familia,+Barcelona,+Spain&radius=15000&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=41.403999,2.173827&panoid=B2N8TOf4Wd5pcFOwd2BU6A&cbp=12,145.34,,0,-21.19

 

I'm sure. I've seen it. It's the church in Barcelona by Gaudi (I took a Gaudi tour—love the guy). I don't remember what it looks like, though. I just remember that when I saw it, I thought, "Wow, yeah, that's definitely... prominent." In which case, it may be the one you showed. Or they may have taken it down (I kinda' doubt it, though). Possibly the guide book just "framed" my perception of the crucifix. But I do recall it really being quite... prominent.

[dUSt]

http://youtu.be/0_oA_QmCoKw

 

[arfink]

I'm sure. I've seen it. It's the church in Barcelona by Gaudi (I took a Gaudi tour—love the guy). I don't remember what it looks like, though. I just remember that when I saw it, I thought, "Wow, yeah, that's definitely... prominent." In which case, it may be the one you showed. Or they may have taken it down (I kinda' doubt it, though). Possibly the guide book just "framed" my perception of the crucifix. But I do recall it really being quite... prominent.

 

Look again at the crucifixion fascade. Jesus is without his loin cloth, but it's most definitely not erotic. Not even close. There is no other crucifix on the outside of the building. The "prominence" is probably just because it's there, not because it's really huge or anything.

 

On the interior they have a very wonderful crucifix which I think is really beautiful. BTW, I am also a big Gaudi fan.

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2013 by arfink

[NonNovi]

It is very well established within Catholic tradition that the human form, including the nude human form, is entirely appropriate within the context of art.

 

I think the council of Trent said something else... but I might be mistaken. I'll look for quotes.
 

[jim111]

Moreover, in the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of
images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished; finally, all
lasciviousness be [Page 236] avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted
or adorned with a beauty exciting to lust; nor the celebration of the saints, and the
visitation of relics be by any perverted into revellings and drunkenness; as if festivals
are celebrated to the honour of the saints by luxury and wantonness.

Trent Session 25.

After this naked art in the churches was covered up.

 

Why is naked people a legitimate form of art Nihil?

[PhuturePriest]

Moreover, in the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of
images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished; finally, all
lasciviousness be [Page 236] avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted
or adorned with a beauty exciting to lust; nor the celebration of the saints, and the
visitation of relics be by any perverted into revellings and drunkenness; as if festivals
are celebrated to the honour of the saints by luxury and wantonness.

Trent Session 25.

After this naked art in the churches was covered up.

 

Why is naked people a legitimate form of art Nihil?

 

If you'll note, there have been a few more councils since the Council of Trent, and now the images in the Sistine Chapel have been uncovered. In fact, Pope John Paul II (Or was it Benedict XVI?) ordered that they do this.

[homeschoolmom]

http://youtu.be/0_oA_QmCoKw

:pinch:

 

I miss The Phattest Loser. :(

[jim111]

If you'll note, there have been a few more councils since the Council of Trent, and now the images in the Sistine Chapel have been uncovered. In fact, Pope John Paul II (Or was it Benedict XVI?) ordered that they do this.

 

It was Pope John Paul II. I don't like it when the popes implement polices that contradict 100's of years of tradition and Infallible councils.

Edited May 1, 2013 by jim111

[PhuturePriest]

It was Pope John Paul II. I don't like it when the popes implement polices that contradict 100's of years of tradition and Infallible councils.

 

Counsels aren't infallible unless they are addressing doctrine. There is no doctrine concerning art, therefore what they said at Trent concerning art is not infallible.

[arfink]

Moreover, in the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of
images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished; finally, all
lasciviousness be [Page 236] avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted
or adorned with a beauty exciting to lust; nor the celebration of the saints, and the
visitation of relics be by any perverted into revellings and drunkenness; as if festivals
are celebrated to the honour of the saints by luxury and wantonness.

Trent Session 25.

After this naked art in the churches was covered up.

 

Why is naked people a legitimate form of art Nihil?

 

Again, context context context! You always strip these things of context! You need to provide more citation than that, because frankly I think there is simply too much missing here.

[jim111]

There is no doctrine concerning art,

 

Are you serious?

[AnneLine]

Hey, one just cannot keep something like this to oneself. The joy is meant to be shared.

 

 

^^^^ THAT is what happens when you stay in the land of cold and snow too long....

 

Or when your MOTHER gives you the outfit and wants to see you in it.   Oh my....

[PhuturePriest]

Are you serious?

 

Do you even know what Doctrine is?

[jim111]

Again, context context context! You always strip these things of context! You need to provide more citation than that, because frankly I think there is simply too much missing here.

 

This is only for the churches. It is not a total ban on nude art. If that is what you mean?

[arfink]

This is only for the churches. It is not a total ban on nude art. If that is what you mean?

 

Citations! I mean, this is the INTERNET Jim. Seriously. Look up the whole document online. Provide a link. Let people look at the context when you provide a quote. Otherwise you come off as merely shouting and mis-quoting.

 

[AnneLine]

(Sorry about the guy in wintery red.... didn't realize there was another page of flying fur.... didn't intend to disrupt the chain of thought)

 

 

 

[arfink]

(Sorry about the guy in wintery red.... didn't realize there was another page of flying fur.... didn't intend to disrupt the chain of thought)

 

Please come help us disrupt! :) We need more red shirts in here, if you know what I mean. :evil:

[jim111]

Do you even know what Doctrine is?

 

Among many other doctrins on art.

 

2. At the same time We have desired to grant what many of you, venerable brethren, have requested in our wisdom and also what has been asked by outstanding masters of this liberal art and distinguished students of sacred music at meetings devoted to the subject. The experience of pastoral life and the advances being made in the study of this art have persuaded Us that this step is timely.

Musicae Sacre, Pius XII

 

22. On this score sacred music obeys laws and rules which are no different from those prescribed for all religious art and, indeed, for art in general. Now we are aware of the fact that during recent years some artists, gravely offending against Christian piety, have dared to bring into churches works devoid of any religious inspiration and completely at variance with the right rules of art. They try to justify this deplorable conduct by plausible-looking arguments which they claim are based on the nature and character of art itself. They go on to say that artistic inspiration is free and that it is wrong to impose upon it laws and standards extraneous to art, whether they are religious or moral, since such rules seriously hurt the dignity of art and place bonds and shackles on the activity of an inspired artist.

23. Arguments of this kind raise a question which is certainly difficult and serious, and which affects all art and every artist. It is a question which is not to be answered by an appeal to the principles of art or of aesthetics, but which must be decided in terms of the supreme principle of the final end, which is the inviolate and sacred rule for every man and every human act.

24. The ordination and direction of man to his ultimate end - which is God - by absolute and necessary law based on the nature and the infinite perfection of God Himself is so solid that not even God could exempt anyone from it. This eternal and unchangeable law commands that man himself and all his actions should manifest and imitate, so far as possible, God's infinite perfection for the praise and glory of the Creator. Since man is born to attain this supreme end, he ought to conform himself and through his actions direct all powers of his body and his soul, rightly ordered among themselves and duly subjected to the end they are meant to attain, to the divine Model. Therefore even art and works of art must be judged in the light of their conformity and concord with man's last end.

Musicae Sacre, Pius XII

[PhuturePriest]

Among many other doctrins on art.

 

2. At the same time We have desired to grant what many of you, venerable brethren, have requested in our wisdom and also what has been asked by outstanding masters of this liberal art and distinguished students of sacred music at meetings devoted to the subject. The experience of pastoral life and the advances being made in the study of this art have persuaded Us that this step is timely.

Musicae Sacre, Pius XII

 

22. On this score sacred music obeys laws and rules which are no different from those prescribed for all religious art and, indeed, for art in general. Now we are aware of the fact that during recent years some artists, gravely offending against Christian piety, have dared to bring into churches works devoid of any religious inspiration and completely at variance with the right rules of art. They try to justify this deplorable conduct by plausible-looking arguments which they claim are based on the nature and character of art itself. They go on to say that artistic inspiration is free and that it is wrong to impose upon it laws and standards extraneous to art, whether they are religious or moral, since such rules seriously hurt the dignity of art and place bonds and shackles on the activity of an inspired artist.

23. Arguments of this kind raise a question which is certainly difficult and serious, and which affects all art and every artist. It is a question which is not to be answered by an appeal to the principles of art or of aesthetics, but which must be decided in terms of the supreme principle of the final end, which is the inviolate and sacred rule for every man and every human act.

24. The ordination and direction of man to his ultimate end - which is God - by absolute and necessary law based on the nature and the infinite perfection of God Himself is so solid that not even God could exempt anyone from it. This eternal and unchangeable law commands that man himself and all his actions should manifest and imitate, so far as possible, God's infinite perfection for the praise and glory of the Creator. Since man is born to attain this supreme end, he ought to conform himself and through his actions direct all powers of his body and his soul, rightly ordered among themselves and duly subjected to the end they are meant to attain, to the divine Model. Therefore even art and works of art must be judged in the light of their conformity and concord with man's last end.

Musicae Sacre, Pius XII

 

All I'm reading about is music. I meant "art" as in what people usually think of when you say "art". Paintings, French guys with hats that Americans laugh at, etc.

[jim111]

Citations! I mean, this is the INTERNET Jim. Seriously. Look up the whole document online. Provide a link. Let people look at the context when you provide a quote. Otherwise you come off as merely shouting and mis-quoting.

 

Cause the 25th session of Trent is really hard to find.
 

http://www.catholicbook.com/AgredaCD/Ecumenical_Councils/trent/ct25.htm

 

Moreover, in the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished; finally, all lasciviousness be avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted or adorned with a beauty exciting to lust; nor the celebration of the saints, and the visitation of relics be by any perverted into revellings and drunkenness; as if festivals are celebrated to the honour of the saints by luxury and wantonness.

Sess.25, Trent