Indwelling Trinity Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 (edited) Praised be Jesus Christ ! Hello Gracian Long time no see. This is sister emmanuel. How this conversation of our Holy Order of Carmel Lifts my Spirits! It reminds me of the Practices we did in the old Brooklyn Carmel. These practices done with love and understanding are life giving not only for ourselves but most especially when offered for souls living and dead. If they become only routine I think we are losing extra chances to love God and souls by our spiritual works of Mercy. We must remember though that all of these things though beautiful, are only a means to an end. The end is perfect love of God and neighbor. one can keep perfect custody of the eyes for example, but if you do not see enough to realize your sister or brother in distress you have put a practice before the two greatest commandments our Lord has taught us. I have seen this happen in Carmel. Only in a small number of Carmels in the United States will you find such austerity. But even in a lax Carmel's one can become a saint for that is between the soul and God. After Being with Mother Teresa and then transferring to the Brooklyn Carmel I was so deeply imprinted with what a Carmelite and religious life was meant to be that I found it a Martyrdom to live a mitigated life. Finally, I felt i could not live a double standard it was hurting my heart and my soul.and so I left and became a Carmelite hermit. Carmelites come from a race of Prophets, For me a Carmelite fulfills her prophetic mission by interiorly hanging on the other side of the cross with Jesus, silently pointing the way to the Kingdom to a world that has all but forgotten God. Although my Carmelite Community, The Hermits of St. Mary of Carmel is afiliated with the O.C.D's we have gone back to the ancient rule of Carmel living in our hermitages coming together only for recreation on Saturdays and holy Mass We try to live as our early Fathers did taking the holy rule literally without any complicated ceremonials as in the pre-VaticanII ceremonials. Yet even living as a hermit does not guarantee endless hour in the hermitage. Sick sisters need care, another must answer the door to those who come for prayers or whose life is filled with pain and suffering Life in the hermitage is a constant spiritual warfare so too the Carmelite who lives in community fervently. It is all in Our holy Rule. I am no longer living at the hermitage but retain my vows as an associate member. I am in hospice now whether it was my MS or my exposure at 9/11 I have hemmorrhaged into the spinal cord at the level that controls breathing, swallowing and movementof my upper body as my spinal cord slowly dies.. There is so much i wish to share with all of you of all the beauty I see as before the disease takes my mind and ability to function. I have a helper who lives with me. He is My St. Joseph on earth twice he has saved my life when choking on my medicines. All is pure and chaste He truly loves the Lord and respects my calling. I realize i am making my ascent to the mount yet I am too weak to do it alone. The good news is finally I am learning the true meaning of spiritual childhood. Therese finally got to me...LOL Maybe she sticks to me like glue because i was a missionary or vee-8 is finally getting even...LOL Although I can no longer wear Our holy Habit,( it gets caught in the motorized wheekchair LOL) it does not matter now for a Carmelite is known from within. I know my vocation was stamped on my soul while still in my Mother's womb when she offered me to God and i chose to respond. I have known since i was a Missionary of Charity, that God wanted me to offer my life for priests and sisters.I told Jesus yes but he must help me to be faithful. Have I always been faithful? No. But I have never stopped trying, dusting myself off even when at the point of near despair and ask Jesus to help me find my way in the Darkness. I trust in his merciful love. These days my life is becoming more and more one continual prayer even as i reach out to others who come to me with their joys and sorrows seeking one who will listen. The world outside is running at such a frenetic pace that people have forgotten how to listn to one another. I don't know how long this illness will go on. At times it can be terrifying But To each of you who share the spirit of Carmel, there is no reason to wait until you find the right Carmel. Start living it today and surely God in his mercy and Our Mother of Carmel will lead you slowly to the mountain of Carmel where Christ dwells. I love you all so much I cannot begin to tell you,but know I hold each of you gently before God in Prayer. Please in your charity say a prayer for me that i may remain faithful to the end no matter how long or short a time i have. If i have ever hurt any of you with my words I humbly beg your forgiveness especially DS If i stop by from time to time and my mind is not clear i ask your patience for I too so desperately need mercy. God Bless, Indwelling Trinity :paperbag: :crusader: Edited July 9, 2014 by Indwelling Trinity
clk Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 I used to live in Buffalo. At that time, the Carmelites' Mass at 7am was open to the public. Perhaps it still is. They also have several novenas during the year. Next one should be the end of September.
Swami Mommy Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Brandylynmarie, I went to Villa Maria academy for high school which is also on Doat St. and I used to walk past the Dominican monastery every day. I always wondered how the cloister looked beyond the stone-walled fence!
Mary's Margaret Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 Indwelling Trinity, your words touch my heart and I hold you in prayer.
Chiquitunga Posted July 9, 2014 Posted July 9, 2014 I used to live in Buffalo. At that time, the Carmelites' Mass at 7am was open to the public. Perhaps it still is. They also have several novenas during the year. Next one should be the end of September. There is one going on right now to Our Lady of Mount Carmel. It started at 7 pm. Today is the second day. Swami Mommy maybe you can go to one of the nights! :like:
AveMariaPurissima Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 (edited) Indwelling Trinity, thank you for such a beautiful post! May God reward you!! :) Edited July 10, 2014 by AveMariaPurissima
brandelynmarie Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Brandylynmarie, I went to Villa Maria academy for high school which is also on Doat St. and I used to walk past the Dominican monastery every day. I always wondered how the cloister looked beyond the stone-walled fence! I discerned with them in 2006 & hung out on the visitors' side of the cloister. Beautiful group of Dominicans. :nun: :nun: :nun: It just took me forever to figure out I'm a Carmelite at heart :hehe2:
Antigonos Posted July 10, 2014 Posted July 10, 2014 Indwelling Trinity, I think of you often and hope that you have what comfort is possible in your situation.
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 Praised be Jesus Christ ! Hello Gracian Long time no see. This is sister emmanuel. How this conversation of our Holy Order of Carmel Lifts my Spirits! It reminds me of the Practices we did in the old Brooklyn Carmel. These practices done with love and understanding are life giving not only for ourselves but most especially when offered for souls living and dead. If they become only routine I think we are losing extra chances to love God and souls by our spiritual works of Mercy. We must remember though that all of these things though beautiful, are only a means to an end. The end is perfect love of God and neighbor. one can keep perfect custody of the eyes for example, but if you do not see enough to realize your sister or brother in distress you have put a practice before the two greatest commandments our Lord has taught us. I have seen this happen in Carmel. Only in a small number of Carmels in the United States will you find such austerity. But even in a lax Carmel's one can become a saint for that is between the soul and God. After Being with Mother Teresa and then transferring to the Brooklyn Carmel I was so deeply imprinted with what a Carmelite and religious life was meant to be that I found it a Martyrdom to live a mitigated life. Finally, I felt i could not live a double standard it was hurting my heart and my soul.and so I left and became a Carmelite hermit. Carmelites come from a race of Prophets, For me a Carmelite fulfills her prophetic mission by interiorly hanging on the other side of the cross with Jesus, silently pointing the way to the Kingdom to a world that has all but forgotten God. Although my Carmelite Community, The Hermits of St. Mary of Carmel is afiliated with the O.C.D's we have gone back to the ancient rule of Carmel living in our hermitages coming together only for recreation on Saturdays and holy Mass We try to live as our early Fathers did taking the holy rule literally without any complicated ceremonials as in the pre-VaticanII ceremonials. Yet even living as a hermit does not guarantee endless hour in the hermitage. Sick sisters need care, another must answer the door to those who come for prayers or whose life is filled with pain and suffering Life in the hermitage is a constant spiritual warfare so too the Carmelite who lives in community fervently. It is all in Our holy Rule. I am no longer living at the hermitage but retain my vows as an associate member. I am in hospice now whether it was my MS or my exposure at 9/11 I have hemmorrhaged into the spinal cord at the level that controls breathing, swallowing and movementof my upper body as my spinal cord slowly dies.. There is so much i wish to share with all of you of all the beauty I see as before the disease takes my mind and ability to function. I have a helper who lives with me. He is My St. Joseph on earth twice he has saved my life when choking on my medicines. All is pure and chaste He truly loves the Lord and respects my calling. I realize i am making my ascent to the mount yet I am too weak to do it alone. The good news is finally I am learning the true meaning of spiritual childhood. Therese finally got to me...LOL Maybe she sticks to me like glue because i was a missionary or vee-8 is finally getting even...LOL Although I can no longer wear Our holy Habit,( it gets caught in the motorized wheekchair LOL) it does not matter now for a Carmelite is known from within. I know my vocation was stamped on my soul while still in my Mother's womb when she offered me to God and i chose to respond. I have known since i was a Missionary of Charity, that God wanted me to offer my life for priests and sisters.I told Jesus yes but he must help me to be faithful. Have I always been faithful? No. But I have never stopped trying, dusting myself off even when at the point of near despair and ask Jesus to help me find my way in the Darkness. I trust in his merciful love. These days my life is becoming more and more one continual prayer even as i reach out to others who come to me with their joys and sorrows seeking one who will listen. The world outside is running at such a frenetic pace that people have forgotten how to listn to one another. I don't know how long this illness will go on. At times it can be terrifying But To each of you who share the spirit of Carmel, there is no reason to wait until you find the right Carmel. Start living it today and surely God in his mercy and Our Mother of Carmel will lead you slowly to the mountain of Carmel where Christ dwells. I love you all so much I cannot begin to tell you,but know I hold each of you gently before God in Prayer. Please in your charity say a prayer for me that i may remain faithful to the end no matter how long or short a time i have. If i have ever hurt any of you with my words I humbly beg your forgiveness especially DS If i stop by from time to time and my mind is not clear i ask your patience for I too so desperately need mercy. God Bless, Indwelling Trinity :paperbag: :crusader: My dear Sr. Emmanuel, I have been trying to reach you via email but my messages were unanswered. I figure that since you were in the hermitage, you do not have access to emails. Thank you for this message though, I am very sorry to hear about your situation. I remain hopeful that your condition will improve and please be assured of my prayers. Please send me private message and please indicate your email address so I can write to you. I discerned joing the OCDS but I think and feel God is not calling me there. Though, I remain very much Carmelite at heart. There are so much documents available in internet now about Discalced Carmelites and even the Pre-Vatican II documents are made available by the Lisieux Archives! Well, a few of them are in English but they are in the process of translating the documents from French to English. Soon, we can finally read the text that the Spanish Mothers brought with them from France and was translated from Spanish to French by their French Superiors. Carmel has always been and will always be eremitical since the Primititve Rule is designed for hermits. I have learned a great deal when the O. Carms. sent me the 5 volume work of Fr. Joachim Smet. O. Carm. entitled "The Carmelites: A History of the Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel. Its an excellent work and it has portion on Discalced Carmelite reform and their own way of explaining the incarceration of St. John of the Cross. I have recently finished the book written by a former Missionaries of Charity Sister entitled "An Unquenchable Thirst." I hope you will find some time to read it. Thank you so much for posting this message. Its really nice to hear from you again, though your situation is very challenging. Be assured of my prayers. Gracian
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) CARMEL OF ST. TERESA OF JESUS Mati, Davao Carmel (second Davao Carmel) Foundress: Mother Marie Susan of Jesus, O.C.D. (was born in Gaspe, Quebec, Canada; professed n Montreal Carmel) Foundation: November 21, 1987 Edited July 13, 2014 by graciandelamadrededios
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) Q: What is the significance of the Carmelite coat of arms? A: The first thing about the coat of arms to catch your eye is a mountain and three stars. The brown mountain, of course, denotes Mount Carmel in Palestine, where the Order came into being, but it also symbolizes the sublime charism of the Order: aspiring to union with God through prayer and contemplation. The lowest star, in silver, represents the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Star of the Sea. Two upper stars, in gold, represent the prophets Elijah and Eliseus, the Fathers of the Carmelite Order. These three stars point to the Marian character of the Order and to its Elijan origins even before the birth of Christ. The three stars also represent the three epochs in the history of Carmel: the first, the prophetic era, from the time of the Prophet Elijah to the time of John the Baptist; the second, or Greek epoch, when the Order spread throughout the East and the West, from the time of John the Baptist to that of Berthold, the first Latin General of the Order; and the third, from Berthold to the present. Above the shield with the mountain and three stars is a five-flowered crown, surrounded by twelve stars, symbolizing Mary, since Carmel is her Order. Over the crown is an arm brandishing a flaming sword, signifying the fiery spirit of Elijah, burning with zeal for the Lord his God. A scroll contains the motto of the Order, taken from the words of Elijah: ZELO, ZELATUS SUM, PRO DOMINO DEO EXERCITUUM (“With zeal have I been zealous for the Lord God of hostsâ€). Source: http://www.ocdswashprov.org/WelcomeToCarmel/8-Aspirants%20Knock,%20Seek,%20and%20Ask%20Questions.pdf Edited July 13, 2014 by graciandelamadrededios
Indwelling Trinity Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 (edited) My dear Sr. Emmanuel, I have been trying to reach you via email but my messages were unanswered. I figure that since you were in the hermitage, you do not have access to emails. Thank you for this message though, I am very sorry to hear about your situation. I remain hopeful that your condition will improve and please be assured of my prayers. Please send me private message and please indicate your email address so I can write to you. I discerned joing the OCDS but I think and feel God is not calling me there. Though, I remain very much Carmelite at heart. There are so much documents available in internet now about Discalced Carmelites and even the Pre-Vatican II documents are made available by the Lisieux Archives! Well, a few of them are in English but they are in the process of translating the documents from French to English. Soon, we can finally read the text that the Spanish Mothers brought with them from France and was translated from Spanish to French by their French Superiors. Carmel has always been and will always be eremitical since the Primititve Rule is designed for hermits. I have learned a great deal when the O. Carms. sent me the 5 volume work of Fr. Joachim Smet. O. Carm. entitled "The Carmelites: A History of the Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel. Its an excellent work and it has portion on Discalced Carmelite reform and their own way of explaining the incarceration of St. John of the Cross. I have recently finished the book written by a former Missionaries of Charity Sister entitled "An Unquenchable Thirst." I hope you will find some time to read it. Thank you so much for posting this message. Its really nice to hear from you again, though your situation is very challenging. Be assured of my prayers. Gracian My Dear Gracian: Thank you so much for your response. The doctors tell me i am terminally ill and there is no treatment for me except for experimental stem cell surgery harvesting my own stem cells. I have to pray about it and consult a priest. my fear is that they may harvest some of my own stem cells but substitute those of an unborn child which i want no part of. As for the book unquenchable thirst, I can tell you that yes there were some sisters in The MC's who were unbalanced but they were given help. For the sake of the Order and any young vocations who might be considering the Missionaries of Chairity and NOT to be uncharitable. I Know this Sister who wrote we were in the novitiate in Rome at the same time. She was Professed 6 months ahead of me. She was very good at scolding everyone else with only two years of religious life under her belt but always had a superior reason for her own actions and harsh words. This was especially hard on the little Indian sisters with an entirely different culture. She was very difficult to live with in community. You could hear her taking the discipline a mile away she so over did it yet she had very little charity with her tongue towards her sisters and often belittled them. One day I went out to the dentist with her and she actually unhooked her waist chains and let them drop to the ground at a bus stop with other people present. This is not the act of a prudent person. I was so embarrassed i could have died right there. she left for a while but she also did a stint in the contemplative branch and even was allowed to live for some time as a hermit. she did no work as she felt her prayer was more important and would not even come out of her room to pick up her meals Yes, Mother had her blind spots but she cannot directly oversee thousands of sisters even as she knew most of us by name. Mother never told us not to touch. She told us when we must touch let it be the touch of Jesus. we went out two by two for our safety from harm and sin as we went into dark holes where no one in their right minds would go to seek out the poor. Not touching also had to do in some degree with the work we did. It was dirty work and the people had everything from leprosy to aids. but God protected us somehow.til one reached final vows. When i was in the Brooklyn Carmel we did the discipline also it really isn't that big a deal but just another penance to unite ourselves with Christs passion for the forgiveness of sins of mankind. Probably a good number of Saints did the same. I know for a fact that St. JP II did it because we made one for him at his request.. i suppose he was stuck in the middle ages too! Evil is real and we must fight it on every level. As for the discipline, Yes we did it but i remember mother telling us that if it gives you any temptation then stop also there was a set number of strokes done less for the postulants which gradually increased until final vow no penances on Sundays. Like any religious community we had our problems. The life is Hard and very austere in many ways but the joy was contagious. i had many close friends in the Missionaries of charity and i was never afraid to be close to them or hug them if need be. I also Had a Superior who was very cruel. Mother had sent me back home to the US because my Parents were going through a bloody divorce and my brothers and sisters begged me to come home. I talked to Mother and she gave me permission to go home for two weeks. no sooner I arrrived back in the South Bronx The superior cut my leave down to 2 days. My parents weren't even asked to sit in the parlor. this same superior regional superior who was also my local superior.. Never stopped persecuting me without details because i don't know the details as i finally had to take a leave of absence from the constant harrassment to the point of be forcefully pushed against a wall when apologizing for some small infraction. I Never complained to Mother because i knew she had so very much on her hands. Finally I was still in vows but went to work with runaways at covenant house i took in volunteers who wanted to work for the poor. I took in7 poor people and4 volunteers. I would work nights come home in the morning spend some time helping the people the go to bed until it was time to get ready for work. I told the volunteers that i was planning to stay only until mother would receive me back. they all said fine. Mother wrote me back and said Sister before you come i want you to have a long talk with Sister Nirmala.(who became the next Mother General) Sister said I definitely had a vocation but it was to contemplative life. I was shocked as if she read my heart.. She said she would write to Mother and ask her to send me to her. As for the Superior, sister told me her mind was not right .Mother agreed to my having a contemplative vocation and she would give me back the habit but i had to do one year of novitiate for the contemplative branch. Two of the volunteers husband and wife who did virtually no work. For whatever they Went to That difficult superior in the active branch and she took them in. whatever happened I was accused of many things that th Bishop and my Pastor got involved. It was like the gates of hell wanted me out. Not ;ong after i came back the doorbell rang and I was shocked to see my Pastor and Confessor at the door. I was so happy to see him and ask how come you are here? He said Mother Called me and want to talk to me about something. Mother and sister Nirmala were in the parlor for almost 2 hours i was in the chapel when i heard the door close. Mother came in the door way bowed to the Blessed Sacrament said a prayer then called me out. she and Sister Nirmala took me to a quiet spot and told me in these exact words. "Sister no matter what happens Sister Nirmala and I will stand behind you to the end." I asked what happened? She said We know and Jesus knows and that is enough. With That she gave me her blessing. To this day I don't know what happened I am sorry this sister had troubles. They happen in the best communities. and the devil is always busy with those who try hardest to seek God. If sister was having temptations with that priest it happens. and it will happen to you. I was attracted very much to one of our Brothers in the MC's and he was to me but a little red flag went off in my head tell your superior. Very humbly I told sister. the next day we were both changed to different apostolates. being humble enough to tell the truth saved my vocation and his also He is now a priest and hold a high position in the order. Yes it stung a bit not seeing him again but i came to religious life for Jesus not to look for a husband. You will feel attraction sooner or later if you are human, you just have to learn how to deal with it once the temptation is out in the open, satan disappears for he hates truth and humility. As for homosexual sisters i have only met one in the MC's. she was a good soul but did not belong in community. .I told my superior she had made an advance but she did not believe me. . I guess because it was so rare a thing we slept in common dormitories of no less than four and as many as twenty. Anyway I do not mean to Hijack this conversation about Carmel. But fearing other might pick up this book and discount Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Charity. It is a wonderful order going through a rough time because Mother was the only Superior until her Death. The sisters went to the Pope when she tried to resign. In God's Providence Sister Nirmala her Godchild who knew her as well as the very first sister perhaps even more suceeded her. As for this Sister who wrote the book, I am sorry she has suffered so much. But her story is very slanted and subjective in many ways.of the year and a half of the time in novitiate with her she never seemed to be just a novice but was always treating all her peers as if she were a mistress herself.Please pray with me for her that she may be happy in her new found life. I know this is off topic of Carmelite customs and i apologize. but since it was mentioned here i thought to address it her. In a way it is good though because you will run into such problems in any community that has human beings as its members. We are all broken to some degree although some of us would deny that to our last breath or at least have a ready excuse. One Carmelite Custom as well as MC custom is never to excuse oneself when corrected. So many souls can be won for God by that one little act of humility. I hope i have not offended anyone here by relating this i wish to defame no one nor do i wish to see true vocations lost to biased information about a community that has done such great good for the poor and the church even with it's blind spots. I cherish my years as a Missionary of Charity They were Joyful Years, but in God's providence when I asked Mother about Carmel she told me to" go Where Jesus was calling me". I received a solid and compassionate formation as a Missionary of Charity. I love them still. If any one has more questions please PM me or start a new thread as i do not wish to hijack this one any further. hugs IT My dear Sr. Emmanuel, I have been trying to reach you via email but my messages were unanswered. I figure that since you were in the hermitage, you do not have access to emails. Thank you for this message though, I am very sorry to hear about your situation. I remain hopeful that your condition will improve and please be assured of my prayers. Please send me private message and please indicate your email address so I can write to you. I discerned joing the OCDS but I think and feel God is not calling me there. Though, I remain very much Carmelite at heart. There are so much documents available in internet now about Discalced Carmelites and even the Pre-Vatican II documents are made available by the Lisieux Archives! Well, a few of them are in English but they are in the process of translating the documents from French to English. Soon, we can finally read the text that the Spanish Mothers brought with them from France and was translated from Spanish to French by their French Superiors. Carmel has always been and will always be eremitical since the Primititve Rule is designed for hermits. I have learned a great deal when the O. Carms. sent me the 5 volume work of Fr. Joachim Smet. O. Carm. entitled "The Carmelites: A History of the Brothers of the Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel. Its an excellent work and it has portion on Discalced Carmelite reform and their own way of explaining the incarceration of St. John of the Cross. I have recently finished the book written by a former Missionaries of Charity Sister entitled "An Unquenchable Thirst." I hope you will find some time to read it. Thank you so much for posting this message. Its really nice to hear from you again, though your situation is very challenging. Be assured of my prayers. Gracian My Dear Gracian: Thank you so much for your response. The doctors tell me i am terminally ill and there is no treatment for me except for experimental stem cell surgery harvesting my own stem cells. I have to pray about it and consult a priest. my fear is that they may harvest some of my own stem cells but substitute those of an unborn child which i want no part of. As for the book unquenchable thirst, I can tell you that yes there were some sisters in The MC's who were unbalanced but they were given help. For the sake of the Order and any young vocations who might be considering the Missionaries of Chairity and NOT to be uncharitable. I Know this Sister who wrote we were in the novitiate in Rome at the same time. She was Professed 6 months ahead of me. She was very good at scolding everyone else with only two years of religious life under her belt but always had a superior reason for her own actions and harsh words. This was especially hard on the little Indian sisters with an entirely different culture. She was very difficult to live with in community. You could hear her taking the discipline a mile away she so over did it yet she had very little charity with her tongue towards her sisters and often belittled them. One day I went out to the dentist with her and she actually unhooked her waist chains and let them drop to the ground at a bus stop with other people present. This is not the act of a prudent person. I was so embarrassed i could have died right there. she left for a while but she also did a stint in the contemplative branch and even was allowed to live for some time as a hermit. she did no work as she felt her prayer was more important and would not even come out of her room to pick up her meals Yes, Mother had her blind spots but she cannot directly oversee thousands of sisters even as she knew most of us by name. Mother never told us not to touch. She told us when we must touch let it be the touch of Jesus. we went out two by two for our safety from harm and sin as we went into dark holes where no one in their right minds would go to seek out the poor. Not touching also had to do in some degree with the work we did. It was dirty work and the people had everything from leprosy to aids. but God protected us somehow.til one reached final vows. When i was in the Brooklyn Carmel we did the discipline also it really isn't that big a deal but just another penance to unite ourselves with Christs passion for the forgiveness of sins of mankind. Probably a good number of Saints did the same. I know for a fact that St. JP II did it because we made one for him at his request.. i suppose he was stuck in the middle ages too! Evil is real and we must fight it on every level. As for the discipline, Yes we did it but i remember mother telling us that if it gives you any temptation then stop also there was a set number of strokes done less for the postulants which gradually increased until final vow no penances on Sundays. Like any religious community we had our problems. The life is Hard and very austere in many ways but the joy was contagious. i had many close friends in the Missionaries of charity and i was never afraid to be close to them or hug them if need be. I also Had a Superior who was very cruel. Mother had sent me back home to the US because my Parents were going through a bloody divorce and my brothers and sisters begged me to come home. I talked to Mother and she gave me permission to go home for two weeks. no sooner I arrrived back in the South Bronx The superior cut my leave down to 2 days. My parents weren't even asked to sit in the parlor. this same superior regional superior who was also my local superior.. Never stopped persecuting me without details because i don't know the details as i finally had to take a leave of absence from the constant harrassment to the point of be forcefully pushed against a wall when apologizing for some small infraction. I Never complained to Mother because i knew she had so very much on her hands. Finally I was still in vows but went to work with runaways at covenant house i took in volunteers who wanted to work for the poor. I took in7 poor people and4 volunteers. I would work nights come home in the morning spend some time helping the people the go to bed until it was time to get ready for work. I told the volunteers that i was planning to stay only until mother would receive me back. they all said fine. Mother wrote me back and said Sister before you come i want you to have a long talk with Sister Nirmala.(who became the next Mother General) Sister said I definitely had a vocation but it was to contemplative life. I was shocked as if she read my heart.. She said she would write to Mother and ask her to send me to her. As for the Superior, sister told me her mind was not right .Mother agreed to my having a contemplative vocation and she would give me back the habit but i had to do one year of novitiate for the contemplative branch. Two of the volunteers husband and wife who did virtually no work. For whatever they Went to That difficult superior in the active branch and she took them in. whatever happened I was accused of many things that th Bishop and my Pastor got involved. It was like the gates of hell wanted me out. Not ;ong after i came back the doorbell rang and I was shocked to see my Pastor and Confessor at the door. I was so happy to see him and ask how come you are here? He said Mother Called me and want to talk to me about something. Mother and sister Nirmala were in the parlor for almost 2 hours i was in the chapel when i heard the door close. Mother came in the door way bowed to the Blessed Sacrament said a prayer then called me out. she and Sister Nirmala took me to a quiet spot and told me in these exact words. "Sister no matter what happens Sister Nirmala and I will stand behind you to the end." I asked what happened? She said We know and Jesus knows and that is enough. With That she gave me her blessing. To this day I don't know what happened I am sorry this sister had troubles. They happen in the best communities. and the devil is always busy with those who try hardest to seek God. If sister was having temptations with that priest it happens. and it will happen to you. I was attracted very much to one of our Brothers in the MC's and he was to me but a little red flag went off in my head tell your superior. Very humbly I told sister. the next day we were both changed to different apostolates. being humble enough to tell the truth saved my vocation and his also He is now a priest and hold a high position in the order. Yes it stung a bit not seeing him again but i came to religious life for Jesus not to look for a husband. You will feel attraction sooner or later if you are human, you just have to learn how to deal with it once the temptation is out in the open, satan disappears for he hates truth and humility. As for homosexual sisters i have only met one in the MC's. she was a good soul but did not belong in community. .I told my superior she had made an advance but she did not believe me. . I guess because it was so rare a thing we slept in common dormitories of no less than four and as many as twenty. Anyway I do not mean to Hijack this conversation about Carmel. But fearing other might pick up this book and discount Mother Teresa and the Missionaries of Charity. It is a wonderful order going through a rough time because Mother was the only Superior until her Death. The sisters went to the Pope when she tried to resign. In God's Providence Sister Nirmala her Godchild who knew her as well as the very first sister perhaps even more suceeded her. As for this Sister who wrote the book, I am sorry she has suffered so much. But her story is very slanted and subjective in many ways.of the year and a half of the time in novitiate with her she never seemed to be just a novice but was always treating all her peers as if she were a mistress herself.Please pray with me for her that she may be happy in her new found life. I know this is off topic of Carmelite customs and i apologize. but since it was mentioned here i thought to address it her. In a way it is good though because you will run into such problems in any community that has human beings as its members. We are all broken to some degree although some of us would deny that to our last breath or at least have a ready excuse. One Carmelite Custom as well as MC custom is never to excuse oneself when corrected. So many souls can be won for God by that one little act of humility. I hope i have not offended anyone here by relating this i wish to defame no one nor do i wish to see true vocations lost to biased information about a community that has done such great good for the poor and the church even with it's blind spots. I cherish my years as a Missionary of Charity They were Joyful Years, but in God's providence when I asked Mother about Carmel she told me to" go Where Jesus was calling me". I received a solid and compassionate formation as a Missionary of Charity. I love them still. If any one has more questions please PM me or start a new thread as i do not wish to hijack this one any further. hugs I Love You ALL IT :eek: :paperbag: Edited July 13, 2014 by Indwelling Trinity
Indwelling Trinity Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Mea Culpa.... I dont know what i did wrong but i posted twice in the above post. sorry!
Nunsense Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 IT - you haven't offended me but I do think that your post got a little personal above about the writer of the book and might have been better not posted. I was never a nun in the MCs but I was a volunteer and lived and prayed with them (although not in their dormitory). I was also very close friends with the RN who worked for them every day - and she had been in the convent in India with them before she had to leave because her health broke down, and I asked her many questions and heard many stories from her that were similar to what was written in the book so I was not at all surprised at some of the things I read in the book. I have also read Hope Endures by Livermore, and that one was even more unflattering about the MCs, so I think Johnson's book was actually quite reasonable given her understanding of what was happening at the time. Her experiences or perceptions might not have been the same as yours but she was also writing a memoir which is a very difficult thing to do since one always sees things from one's own point of view - that can't be helped. You write above about all the suffering you endured with the MCs so it would be inappropriate to seem to be denigrating her own suffering as she perceived it. The MCs are a wonderful community - no doubt about it, but they do have their own problems - impossible not to with so many members of the community and the cultural differences and the incredible austerities. Johnson's story is just her own way of trying to make sense of some of the things that happened to her. Just as when you or I write about the suffering we have been through in convents, we are simply trying to express what we perceive (or perceived at the time) to be true. She deserves the same respect that you or I do when we try to make sense of some of the things that happened to us. I know you don't mean anything ill by what you write though, and of course, my prayers are with you through all your physical suffering now. I just felt that it wasn't necessary to write some of the personal things you did about her (unless you are writing your memoirs now too? :) ) I hope I am not offending you by this. --- Getting back to the Carmelites, there is one thing that I thought I would bring up. Gracian, you say that Carmelites will always be eremetical. While this is true to a degree, they are also cenobitical in that they are 'hermits in community'. They do not live as true hermits do, but within a community environment. At heart, a Carmelite is a hermit, but in practice, she lives with her sisters and must adapt to community life. One of the things I found hardest in my first Carmel was the fact that we had little time alone with God. Even our prayer time was done in choir with all the other sisters. When I was there, they had no 'hermit days' so I felt as if I were always surrounded by sisters. As a postulant and Novice, one is often working with another sister, who supervises her work, so although the professed nuns worked alone, when one first enters, this is not so. In addition to this, we prayed together, cleaned the kitchen together, did laundry together, had Recreation together- it was non-stop interaction with others. Silence was the rule, but solitude was not and even silence was broken for necessary conversation while working. I loved Sundays because there was no 'work' and I could spend a little time alone. It was only after living as a hermit that I realized the difference between being a hermit and being a hermit in community. Many Carmels now have 'hermit days' where a sister is excused from all duties (except certain Offices) and they can spend time alone with God, and a lot more communities now allow sisters to spend their prayer time alone, away from the choir, so they can go to a hermitage in the grounds or for a walk etc. And of course, the Carmelites are much less cenobitical than the Poor Clares where they share a common workroom, but they are certainly not 'hermits' in the truest sense of the word. I like to think of them as 'hermits at heart'.
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 --- Getting back to the Carmelites, there is one thing that I thought I would bring up. Gracian, you say that Carmelites will always be eremetical. While this is true to a degree, they are also cenobitical in that they are 'hermits in community'. They do not live as true hermits do, but within a community environment. At heart, a Carmelite is a hermit, but in practice, she lives with her sisters and must adapt to community life. One of the things I found hardest in my first Carmel was the fact that we had little time alone with God. Even our prayer time was done in choir with all the other sisters. When I was there, they had no 'hermit days' so I felt as if I were always surrounded by sisters. As a postulant and Novice, one is often working with another sister, who supervises her work, so although the professed nuns worked alone, when one first enters, this is not so. In addition to this, we prayed together, cleaned the kitchen together, did laundry together, had Recreation together- it was non-stop interaction with others. Silence was the rule, but solitude was not and even silence was broken for necessary conversation while working. I loved Sundays because there was no 'work' and I could spend a little time alone. It was only after living as a hermit that I realized the difference between being a hermit and being a hermit in community. Many Carmels now have 'hermit days' where a sister is excused from all duties (except certain Offices) and they can spend time alone with God, and a lot more communities now allow sisters to spend their prayer time alone, away from the choir, so they can go to a hermitage in the grounds or for a walk etc. And of course, the Carmelites are much less cenobitical than the Poor Clares where they share a common workroom, but they are certainly not 'hermits' in the truest sense of the word. I like to think of them as 'hermits at heart'. I was referring to the what Sr. Emmanuel was telling us that they went back to the original inspiration of Carmel, hermit lifestyle. We all know that the Primitive Rule of Carmel - The Rule of St. Albert were written for a group of hermits not cenobites. It was only when the Carmelites migrated to West that they asked the Pope to mitigate the Rule so they can adapt to the religious culture of the west where hermit life is alien. Unfortunately, after several decades of living in Europe, making the Carmelites in equal footing with mendicant orders, the religious fervour of Carmelites declined. The original and primitive rule of Carmel were layered with migitations granted by the Pope. I wrote the following to a friend: The OCD Nuns and Friars are both Hermits and Cenobites. The Primitive Rule St. Teresa has chosen is not actually the Hermit Rule of St. Albert but the Mitigated Rule of Innocent. The Rule of St. Albert is observed by the Hermits before their migration to Europe The Rule of St. Albert mitigated by Pope Innocent was observed when the hermits resettled in Europe; transititioning from Hermit to Mendicant Friars. The Rule of St. Albert with additional mitigation granted by Pope Eugene. St. Teresa professed first vows in Incarnation Monastery following the Mitigated Rule of Pope Eugene and later opted for the “Primitive†Rule of St. Albert by Pope Innocent. The Rule of St. Albert without mitigation is in reality the Primitive Rule but during the time of St. Teresa, the Primitive Rule is the Innocentian Rule since this Rule is adapted for Carmelites living in Europe but retaining the eremitical inspiration example, staying in the cell to pray if not occupied by household and choir duties and hermit days within the monastery. This is what St. Teresa had chosen and not the Hermit Rule. Hence, if there are Carmelite Eremitical commuties who wanted to be accepted within the Discalced Carmelite Order, they are usually denied acceptance since this is spirituality of the Carmelites of the Ancient Observance. If we literraly follow the precepts of Vatican II to return to the sources, the O. Carm. should return to hermit lifestyle. This is the reason why there are many Carmelite Hermit Communities of Men and Women under the auspices of the O. Carm. and very few with the OCD. The Carmels founded by St. Teresa and monasteries that were founded after her has always maintained the hermit and cenobite aspect of life. Cenobites in a sense that they live within the community, they pray, eat and recreate together. Hermit is a sense that if they do not have choir or office duties, they stay in their cell to pray and meditate. They also have hermit days where each Nun are given time spent away from the community. Even while working with others, they remain a hermit since Carmelites does not have a workroom, ideally. Two Nuns from Schenectady Carmel submitted an alternative Rule for an increase hermitical lifestyle but the request was denied by the Father General of the Discalced Friars. Port Tobacco Carmel has laura type of living but they are not hermits at all, they still eat, pray and recreate with the entire community. But if a Carmel whose members pray, work, and eat alone and meet with the community during mass and have a weekly recreation, then diffinitely they are Carmelite Hermits following the Ancient Rule of St. Albert. For more than 10 years of monastic research work, I am fully and consciously aware the the Discalced Reform of St. Teresa was geared towards hermit life in a community. I wrote the Anneline the following: The Carmelites have a different story and this started with the migitations, upon mitigations of their Rule which eventually lead to laxity and decline; common among religious orders during that period. Suffice it to say that the Rule has been layered with various mitigations granted by the Popes. The there is a mystery of why the Carmelites started very late in incorporating women religious in the Order when the Augustinians, Dominicans (the cloistered nuns came in first) Servites, and Franciscans or even the Benedictines, have incorporated cloister for women after immediately their Order was founded. The Carmelites started incorporating women in the 15th century. May I point out the among Carmelite Monasteries for women (when the group of women started adapting the Carmelite Rule), the development is uneven, the rules and constitutions are not very clear and their way of life is somewhat vague varying from one house to another, from one province to another or even one country to another. The Discalced Reform of St. Teresa did not start like this. At least during her lifetime – since she already know when to begin and what needs to be done to avoid those issues. As for Carmelite Nuns (O. Carm.), it seems a great way to start with the Bull “Cum Nulla†issued by Pope Nicholas V which was the formal institution of the Nuns into the Order. Prior to this bull a lot of women were asking to be incorporated into the Order and the General John Soreth finally petitioned Rome for approval hence, the bull “Cum Nulla†was issued and has formally accepted “Nuns†into the Order. But the bull had a loophole – see the underlined texts: The papal bull Cum Nulla. Nicholas, Bishop, Servant of the Servants of God. For perpetual memory. No one can organize, without the permission of the Supreme Pontiff, any group of faithful, under whatever form of religion. Any group of female religious, virgins, widows, "beguines," "mantellati" or other similar groups, which exist under the title and protection of the Order of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary of Mount Carmel, or who in the future offer to commit themselves, may not continue without the approval of the apostolic authority. By means of these letters, we decree that with regard to the reception, mode of life, admission and protection of the aforementioned, we decree that the Order and the Master General and the Priors Provincial enjoy and may use the same identical privileges given to the Order of Preachers and to the Hermits of St. Augustine. With these privileges the aforementioned virgins, widows, "beatas" and "mantellati" live in chastity and honesty, keeping fast and fulfilling all other duties, as they already do, according to the statutes of the virgins, "beguines", and "mantellati" of the other Orders, who also live in chastity and honesty. Let no one dare to interfere and contravene our decree. However, if someone presumes to contravene it, let that person know that he will incur the wrath of God and of his holy apostles, Peter and Paul. Given in Rome, in St. Peter’s, in the year 1452 of the Incarnation of Our Lord, the 7th day of October, in the sixth year of our pontificate Those underlined texts did not really explain if the Nuns are to adapt cloister and regular life; many interpreted the bull as permission to continue the general spirit of Beguine lifestyle – no strict enclosure and fixed prayer schedule. So the Nuns continued with their former lifestyle while following the Carmelite Rule. Further, this gave the Nuns equal footing with the Dominicans and Augustinians of the Second Order where each monastery is autonomous. Soreth, armed with this document, immediately elevated some communities into the Second Order and for the next 25 years, Europe had seen rapid growth of convents in France and in Lowlands. He asked some of the communities to follow the Constitutions of the Friars and later, he himself wrote the constitutions with strict enclosure with emphasis on prayer, solitude, silence, and penance. But this did not make any impact with the Italian and Spanish convents, who continue to live the lifestyle of a Mantellate or a Beata. Bl. Frances d'Amboise indeed tried with the Franciscan community in Nantes but due to her frequent illness, she found that the lifestyle of the “Poor Clare†too austere. Then, she met with Soreth and he explained the new Second Order to her and she found it appealing. She endowed a convent and she herself entered there and received the habit from hands of John Soreth. Due to diverse interpretation of the Bull and the autonomy granted by each monastery, there was no uniformity of observances. Those who were under the influence of John Soreth followed the ideal Carmelite life – they were cloistered and followed the Rule. The Italian and Spanish Carmel has different story – they continued the lifestyle of Mantellate and Beata where they are free to leave the convent and maintains contact with people in the city. Many of these convents in Italy are essentially Carmelite in name but Mantellate in practice except those who came into contact with the `n Reform. They may have not observed the strict enclosure but they are closer to the ideal of Soreth. The monastery where St. Teresa entered was a Beaterio dedicated to St. Mary of the Incarnation founded by Dona Elvira Gonzales. The community eventually petitioned the Provincial that Incarnation be admitted into the Second Order. The “Beatas†adopted a form of life which contains the features of a convent but retaining the principal features of a Beaterio. They have noviate and recitation of the Divine Office in common but the Beatas can easily ask permission to leave the convent. Class distinction was evident – the rich ladies being waited upon by a servant and lived in a suite of rooms. Their poorer sisters lived in dormitories and most of the time, has to go home or go out to find food for them. This was the state of the convent when Teresa entered and they have close to 200 Nuns living inside! The rest is history where we can refer to the Constitutions of St. Teresa, limiting the number of Nuns in each house to 21, no common work room, rough brown frieze (horse blanket) for the habit and course linen for the toque, no extra pleats on the articles of the habit, alpargates for the footwear and wearing of Grate Veils, etc. The reform of St. Teresa was her “reaction†to the lifestyle she experienced in the Incarnation. Well, eventually, the O.Carms. adapted the reforms initiated by St. Teresa and the Incarnation Convent petitioned to be transferred to authority of the Discalced Carmelite Order. St. Maravillas of Jesus was ordered by her Superiors to help the Nuns restore their crumbling monasteries and saved it from falling apart. The Incarnation monasteries still stands strong and Discalced Nuns are still living their life of prayer as initiated by St. Teresa. They too are members of the Association of Carmels in Spain organized by Mother Maravillas of Jesus. St. Teresa did not really envision reforming an Order but she has no choice when the Calced became aggressive towards the Discalced. St. Maravillas did not see herself as a “reformer†but she wanted to be a faithful daughter of St. Teresa of Jesus and to the constitutions she wrote for her Nuns.
Nunsense Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 Gracian - I wasn't doubting your "more than 10 years of monastic research work" but was simply trying to make things a little clearer perhaps to those who don't delve quite so deeply into theoretical research.I was simply relating my experiences in Carmel and stating that although Carmelites are at heart, hermits, today they mainly live as hermits in community, something that isn't always understood by those who haven't experienced it. No offence was intended.
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 Gracian - I wasn't doubting your "more than 10 years of monastic research work" but was simply trying to make things a little clearer perhaps to those who don't delve quite so deeply into theoretical research.I was simply relating my experiences in Carmel and stating that although Carmelites are at heart, hermits, today they mainly live as hermits in community, something that isn't always understood by those who haven't experienced it. No offence was intended. I am not offended, I need to clarify what your reply to what I said that Carmelites has always been and will always be eremitical. Again, those comment was aligned to what Sr. Emmanuel mentioned about her community. You have every right to share what you experience which is similar to what other nuns shared with me when I interviewed them, via email or face to face in a Carmelite Parlor with grilles separating us. I am merely stating what I learned in my more than 10 years of research work. I am sure you have no intention to doubt my work, however, it is my right to clarify my point of view in the light of your recent comments.
Nunsense Posted July 13, 2014 Posted July 13, 2014 I am not offended, I need to clarify what your reply to what I said that Carmelites has always been and will always be eremitical. Again, those comment was aligned to what Sr. Emmanuel mentioned about her community. You have every right to share what you experience which is similar to what other nuns shared with me when I interviewed them, via email or face to face in a Carmelite Parlor with grilles separating us. I am merely stating what I learned in my more than 10 years of research work. I am sure you have no intention to doubt my work, however, it is my right to clarify my point of view in the light of your recent comments. Of course, I understand. And perhaps my input can be that of a supplement to your studies and interviews with Carmelite nuns, as I have lived in four Carmelite convents and am a postulant in one now. Each community is different and although Carmelites do have an eremetical foundation, it was the Prioress at my first Carmel who told me, "We are not hermits in Carmel. We are 'hermits in community.' " It's good to have the balance of views I think.
graciandelamadrededios Posted July 13, 2014 Author Posted July 13, 2014 Of course, I understand. And perhaps my input can be that of a supplement to your studies and interviews with Carmelite nuns, as I have lived in four Carmelite convents and am a postulant in one now. Each community is different and although Carmelites do have an eremetical foundation, it was the Prioress at my first Carmel who told me, "We are not hermits in Carmel. We are 'hermits in community.' " It's good to have the balance of views I think. Duly considered.
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