Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[Nihil Obstat]

Several saints have written that it is best, both for you and others, to avoid noticing what anyone else does or does not do in the communion line.

[Pliny]

Hey man, I realize I was harsh, it just felt like you were being directly insulting to something that I know if very sacred and special to many people, including very close friends of mine, just because it made you uncomfortable.  I know people who found it really special and loved doing it and it enhanced their prayer life and they felt they had to stop because of social pressure, and that's really an awful thing.  people give dirty looks, act cold towards them, snub them for liturgical ministries, etc... all for using a sacramental immemorially connected with the Holy Mass that beautifully enhances their worship of our Lord.  That's why it really annoyed me.  It wasn't an ego trip, it was you striking a nerve by insulting something that's very special to many people.

 

 

I wouldn't say it makes me feel "uncomfortable."  In fact there was a time when my wife had beautiful long blonde hair and I tried to get her to wear one, thinking at that time that the main reason for the veil is to hide a woman's "glory" and to be less distracting to others.  I understand now there is more to it than that, especially since--and no insult intended--almost all who I see wearing the veil in my church have left their glory days far behind them.  So I'm sure they have good reasons, but as a matter of taste and sensitivity to the norms of our culture and the way we dress, I think they're a little out of place.  Just my opinion, and I would never harass, pressure, or insult any of the ladies regarding their veils.  In our church a veil may not be worn by a lector or eucharistic minister because of the pastor feels it causes a distraction and draws undue attention to the wearer, and I don't see why it would be such a hard thing to do for veil wearers to lay that sacramental aside on those days so that they can do both.  Anyway, I shouldn't have mentioned veils in this thread. 

 

Other than that I have found you respectful and have insisted that the thread stay open so you can make your points, man.  I didn't like people suggesting you were "trolling" and called them out on that (it's an overused word around these parts for "person who's persisting in an argument I strongly disagree with, shouldn't they just change their mind and agree with me already?")... 

 

 

I appreciate that you were fair and supportive.  I think in a debate sub-forum that things should be...."debated."  In a real debate, sometimes positions are taken that are contrary to what the debater believes, for the sake of the debate and to bring as many ideas and facts to light.  So even if I didn't believe what I posted (which I did), it wouldn't be "trolling," would it?  The only thing is that I pushed it harder than I would have in a real life conversation.  

 

You made some very good points and I have not ruled out that you might in the end be right, though if I'm in error, I'm erring on the side of believing my pastor and what I believe the archdiocese is telling me, which seems like a sensible way to bet.  But even if I were to concede that you're right in principle, I still cannot understand why a personal preference could not be subordinated for the sake of unity and out of respect for the pastor, the bishop and each other.  I don't mean to debate this point any more, but I don't understand what's so hard about giving it up, and to me it not only seems a little rude, but reveals a spiritual immaturity.

 

However, this is a SMALL issue.  It became big here in a thread, but I realize in its proper perspective it's not that big of a deal.  I have another friend who was having some problems and I suggested to her that she come to daily Mass when she can and that it might bring her some peace.  She came last week and she knelt at the Lamb of God because she saw someone in front of her doing that, and I have little doubt she was going along because she didn't know any better or because she thought this was a daily Mass custom, but again, this is a small thing, and the big thing and the important thing is that she came to Mass.

 

though in any liturgical matter there is ALWAYS a point for us ALL to reflect upon how much we are allowing that point to distract us from our worship (as all of us are imperfect and each of us find our own distractions, for some of us those distractions are actually an attachment to the rubrics, it can be something that is a detriment to our worship).

 

 

Agreed.  

Thanks for an interesting discussion.

[Pliny]

Several saints have written that it is best, both for you and others, to avoid noticing what anyone else does or does not do in the communion line.

 

I do avoid it.  But I can't UNnotice what has been inadvertently noticed.

[Nihil Obstat]

I do avoid it. But I can't UNnotice what has been inadvertently noticed.

One might try. Personally I do.

[freedomreigns]

 

to me it not only seems a little rude, but reveals a spiritual immaturity.

 

 

 

Pliny- this has been my entire puzzlement this whole thread.

 

I actually agree that it might be better to stand as a form of obedience and unity, but I don't think it okay to judge others for their decision to kneel. You don't know these peoples' intentions.  Maybe they are trying to give the pastor and bishop a one-finger-salute, but I doubt it.  I actually think I remember it being a specific virtue to think the best of others, I just don't remember the official name of the virtue.  I think the opposite vice might be rash judgment.  Just because you aren't confronting these people does not mean you are not judging them in your own heart.

 

I don't think any of us, besides maybe a confessor or spiritual director, should be in the business of opining about the spiritual state of others.  It seems that is what the self-righteous man did in contrast to the publican who saw his sin and knew that it was in need of mercy.  Not trying to condemn you either, Just food for thought.

[Pliny]

I understand your point FR. And I agree, except what you haven't taken into consideration is that I know these people. I've had many discussions with some of them. I have patiently endured their preachiness among other things. Overall they're good people but somewhat lopsided and a little paranoid as I see it. Nevertheless I'll still strive to do as you suggested. But for now the best I can do is consider that they don't know any better.

[Pliny]

So what is the page limit for a thread?

[Nihil Obstat]

I understand your point FR. And I agree, except what you haven't taken into consideration is that I know these people. I've had many discussions with some of them. I have patiently endured their preachiness among other things. Overall they're good people but somewhat lopsided and a little paranoid as I see it. Nevertheless I'll still strive to do as you suggested. But for now the best I can do is consider that they don't know any better.

You know, posts like this are the reason you are not getting all that much in the way of warm feelings in this thread. In a post where you are trying to establish your respectful relationship with such people with whom you disagree, you still cannot help but call them preachy and paranoid and imply that they are ignorant. 

I sure hope the people I go to Mass with do not talk about me like this behind my back if I do things they find odd.

[Pliny]

You know, posts like this are the reason you are not getting all that much in the way of warm feelings in this thread. In a post where you are trying to establish your respectful relationship with such people with whom you disagree, you still cannot help but call them preachy and paranoid and imply that they are ignorant. 

I sure hope the people I go to Mass with do not talk about me like this behind my back if I do things they find odd.

 

I said I have endured their preachiness (of some, not all).  That's a fact.  I'm not talking behind their backs in any harmful way because those people and I am anonymous.  And yes some of them are paranoid and think that our Bishop had evil intentions.  

 

I'm just trying to keep this real and put things into perspective.  Theory is one thing, but reality is another.

[KnightofChrist]

I guess this all raises the question of whether or not gossip is acceptable if the name of the person(s) is hidden.

[Nihil Obstat]

I said I have endured their preachiness (of some, not all).  That's a fact.  I'm not talking behind their backs in any harmful way because those people and I am anonymous.  And yes some of them are paranoid and think that our Bishop had evil intentions.  

 

I'm just trying to keep this real and put things into perspective.  Theory is one thing, but reality is another.

 

And the reality is that there really is no excuse for you to talk about other faithful Catholics the way you are in this thread, IMO.

[Pliny]

And the reality is that there really is no excuse for you to talk about other faithful Catholics the way you are in this thread, IMO.

Your humble opinion is noted. I however disagree. What I shared is relevant to the discussion and puts things in a fuller context.

[maximillion]

Jeepers creepers, are there not enough really awful things going on in the world for us to give our (prayerful) attention than having to get uptight about what other folks do or do not do at Mass - or anyplace else if it comes to that.

 

Judge not - lest you be judged!

[Pliny]

Jeepers creepers, are there not enough really awful things going on in the world for us to give our (prayerful) attention than having to get uptight about what other folks do or do not do at Mass - or anyplace else if it comes to that.

 

Judge not - lest you be judged!

 

Of course there are really awful things going on in the world, so what are you doing here wasting your time reading and making an irrelevant post in this thread and judging what you perceive to be "uptightness"?  Go out and do something about it.

[Aloysius]

this is the thread that never ends, yes it goes on and on my friends...

some mods tried to lock it, knowing what it was,

but I stopped them from locking it so it goes on just because...

this is the thread that never ends...

[HisChildForever]

The fact is that [b]I have done zip in real life about this, and have no plans to take it further.[/b]

 

 

Of course there are really awful things going on in the world, so what are you doing here wasting your time reading and making an irrelevant post in this thread and judging what you perceive to be "uptightness"?  [b]Go out and do something about it.[/b]

 

Pot, meet kettle?

Maybe you should take your own advice at this point lol.

[NotreDame]

What I really hate is when people are alone in a pew, but they sit right next to the aisle, blocking everyone else from entering.  If you try to get in the pew, rather than slide down, they ever so slightly adjust themselves, as if to acknowledge that you want to go by them while letting you know it won't be easy.

Edited February 10, 2014 by NotreDame

[HisChildForever]

What I really hate is when people are alone in a pew, but they sit right next to the aisle, blocking everyone else from entering.  If you try to get in the pew, rather than slide down, they ever so slightly adjust themselves, as if to acknowledge that you want to go by them while letting you know it won't be easy.

 

I did that tonight. Near the wall though, not center aisle. Although there were only a dozen people there and crazy snow, so I assumed no one would care. Then there was an influx of people. I'll either move down or get up and move out (which I did tonight) so the person can enter. At least tonight I had a bulky coat and whatnot with me, would've been clumsy to pull it all down the pew with me as I'm juggling the missal.

[Pliny]

What I really hate is when people are alone in a pew, but they sit right next to the aisle, blocking everyone else from entering.  If you try to get in the pew, rather than slide down, they ever so slightly adjust themselves, as if to acknowledge that you want to go by them while letting you know it won't be easy.

 

Finally some common ground.

 

But on the other hand, I hate when I do score the treasured aisle seat without having blocked anyone, then someone comes late and pushes me in.

[Lil Red]

What I really hate is when people are alone in a pew, but they sit right next to the aisle, blocking everyone else from entering.  If you try to get in the pew, rather than slide down, they ever so slightly adjust themselves, as if to acknowledge that you want to go by them while letting you know it won't be easy.

 

this is why my family and i usually sit in the front pews where no one else likes to sit, because I pretty much have to be on the end of a pew. :unsure: