Lilllabettt Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 lemme get this straight. you want the pastor to remove somebody from a church ministry. Because he or she is kneeling at the consecration. ?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Correct is the right answer to a question. Gently advising without judgement or condemnation is creating hope and respect for the advised. I think pliny means advise his brethren not judge or condemn. Edited February 1, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) http://youtu.be/5xKXtPaSNH4 Don't wan't war people, don't start war. :P Woops this is a debate thread, carry on columbus'. Edited February 1, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) lemme get this straight. you want the pastor to remove somebody from a church ministry. Because he or she is kneeling at the consecration. ?????? Wow, what a way to take it out of context. I want the person in the choir to be one with the choir and do as instructed by the pastor and choir director. Do you dispute that the pastor or choir director has that authority? Remember, this is the choir. We're not in the pews. We have a job to do and kneeling is not practical or proper at that point FOR US. He is more than welcome to leave the choir and kneel at the Consecration as the rest of us do when not in the choir. Edited February 1, 2014 by Pliny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 [attachment=3250:6813680-old-man-goes-to-great-historical-bike.jpg] EVERY single person in the Roman Rite has the absolute right to kneel at the consecration, regardless of whether they're in the choir or not. nobody except the Pope himself has the authority to not allow someone to kneel for the consecration to worship their Lord. "why don't you kneel? why don't you crawl? -Cardinal Arinze" I guarantee you... and I would bet you dollars to donuts, that if someone tried to throw someone out of a choir for kneeling at the consecration and the question came to Rome about it, you'd get a smackdown from Rome worse than the smack down Cardinal Arinze gave last time someone tried to act like there was any kind of liturgical rule prohibiting any knee from bending to worship our Lord in the Eucharist. could you please try to get with the mens of the Holy Church regarding lay postures at the various parts of the mass, rather than your own rather strange regimentation of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 I thought we might have some common ground on this issue but apparently not. I think a case can be made that it is understood when joining a choir that at times choir members assume special positions and if that is not agreeable to the choir candidate he doesn't need to be a part of the choir. We don't have kneelers or space to kneel if all the choir members would kneel at that time or any way to get back up without banging into music stands and making noise and drawing attention to ourselves. It's not practical and it's disruptive. It is only practical for one rebel to do so, since we've yielded the space to him by being reasonable and not being jackasses about respecting a commonsense requirement. I wonder if you can make a case against the idea that only those who have half a brain, good manners, and common sense can be allowed in the choir. (Besides of course being able to carry a tune, which actually is questionable in his case). Those kinds of people won't cause any problems and will have the spiritual maturity to see that it's no sin or offense to God to stand in their special role in the liturgy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Of course by your logic he should be able to kneel ANY TIME during the Mass and be the only kneeling singer. If he announces the entrance hymn he could stay, "Please stand, but I'm gonna kneel." Really this is ridiculous. You allow for no order or uniformity--not even for those who have a special and visible rolee in the liturgy. Edited February 1, 2014 by Pliny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cruciatacara Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Of course by your logic he should be able to kneel ANY TIME during the Mass and be the only kneeling singer. If he announces the entrance hymn he could stay, "Please stand, but I'm gonna kneel." Really this is ridiculous. You allow for no order or uniformity--not even for those who have a special and visible rolee in the liturgy. I don't really have a stance on this one way or the other, but I am curious as to why this seems to bother you so much more than it does anyone else in the choir, or the choir leader for that matter? I mean, if everyone (or a majority at least) was concerned to the point that they started to discuss it, or even if the choir leader felt compelled to say something, then perhaps your concern would make sense. But are you the only one who seems to get all hot under the collar about this? There does seem to be a certain amount of obsessive compulsive behavior on your part here. Just saying. Some people do seem to get very upset when everything doesn't seem to go the way they think it should -- it might be a control issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) It would be nice to see the topic addressed instead of psychoanalyzing me. If you want to start a special thread about me and the disorders you perceive that I have, I would be flattered, would enjoy the attention, and might even participate. But what about the ACTUAL POINT I'm making here? The fact is that this was recently addressed to the choir leaders by the pastor. He wanted a uniformity of posture and wanted us all to be standing at that time, but to make a "profound bow" when he genuflects. Most of us were already doing this, but a few needed to be brought inline. Because of the unfortunate layout of our church and some space limitations, doing otherwise causes a distraction to the congregation and unnecessary commotion. And yes, the choir leader is concerned as are some other members of the choir, but I don't think our leader has the nerve to really confront him unless he feels some pressure from some of the rest of us, which I think could happen. (And it's no coincidence that he has caused trouble in another choir and was booted out of that one regarding a completely different issue that had nothing to do with liturgical postures). Edited February 1, 2014 by Pliny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotreDame Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 It's your tone Pliny... when you say someone needs "brought inline", I cringe a little bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Thanks for the support. I don't feel so lonely now. Pliny is under the protection of TAB now. :reaper: And so begins another phatmass bromance...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 The other issue is holding hands during the Our Father. I prefer not to, but I was the only one in the choir not doing that last time, and for the sake of unity will go along with the rest, unless I can convince them that it's ok not to. Maybe they feel obligated. Of course it is my right to not hold hands, even to not hold hands and kneel or crawl during the Our Father, but what's so hard about being reasonable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pliny Posted February 1, 2014 Author Share Posted February 1, 2014 And so begins another phatmass bromance...... He seems to be a very nice guy but I'm not ready for that right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice_nine Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 unity =/= uniformity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) It would be nice to see the topic addressed instead of psychoanalyzing me. I agree caring is not psychoanalyzing, it is trying to understand. :) We all have a psychology or psychiatric degree right? And even if you do surely you know it takes more than one session to make a sure diagnosis. :reaper: Everyone listen to Elisha and Elijah-Spirit vs Flesh " we are capable." If you dare. Look for it for yourself, it isn't on youtube, i can't remember the sight i got the cd from exactly, i think it may have been bandcamp.com Edited February 1, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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