Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[Winchester]

In Pliny's defense, he (she?) did make the point earlier that, despite his strong tone and point of view expressed here, this is just an anonymous internet thread and we shouldn't use it as a basis for guessing his actual behaviors or demeanor.

 

I put a qualifier at the beginning of my post for a reason. The statement is contingent.

[Pliny]

I should not have veered off the topic with my comments about veils.  Especially since I'm the "only one" in this thread who did not make a post relevant to the topic.  :eyeroll:

 

Just for the record, though, I have made the same comment to one of my friends who wears a veil and she did not get all "freaking" touchy about it, and even laughed about it.  If someone is secure in what they do, they won't easily be offended by comments like that. I would be very surprised if that is one of the "most obnoxious" posts in phatmass.  

 

But that's not the topic.

 

Fr. Z who has been quoted as an authority says this:

 

I don’t think it is ever wrong to kneel in a church where the Blessed Sacrament is present.

 

 

So what does this mean? I can kneel during the Our Father?  I can kneel during the readings?  I can kneel during the Creed?  It's "never wrong" according to Fr. Z.  So GIRM 42 goes out the window.  Personal preference is more important than unity or what our Bishops say.

 

If we always have this option, then why haven't our Bishops told us that?  Why do we have to go to places like Fr. Z's blog or phatmass to find justification to do our special thing?  Are our bishops being deceitful by this omission?

 

I directed my pastor to Fr. Z's blog so that he would have a better idea of the arguments I'm dealing with.  Here are some excerpts from his email response.  Note that these are excerpts and I have left some irrelevant comments out and also that it was a quick response, so is not written as well as he usually does.  Also note that I do not claim and did not say to Father that others I've spoken with or who have commented here say that standing is a "sacrilege":

 

 I choose to listen to my bishop and submit my subjective likes/dislikes as a greater sign of reverence for Christ's local apostle.  To stand at the Lamb of God is no sacrilege as some might say.  If it was, then such a sacrilege is on the soul of the bishop, not mine.   I'm just following my marching orders.

 

The issue with this interpretation is that the local bishop has not stopped being the chief shepherd and he still decides the liturgical postures, not me nor a parish as a whole.  Another issue is that this Colin Donovan's opinion, though he may be an expert in these areas.  I cannot tell from his vitae of work on EWTN.  But, he is not an official representative of the U.S. Bishops or the Vatican, but rather of EWTN.

 

Fr. Z is no authority in my book.  But, I give him a break in that he's doing what he sees as his best.  I think we all are.  Though, by his own admission he says, at the bottom of his own webpage, "The opinions expressed on this blog don't necessarily reflect the positions of any of the Church's entities with which I am involved. They are my own."

 

Mr. Donovan and Fr. Z are not official representatives.  A question put to the Vatican's office of liturgy (the example with Cardinal Arinze is a perfect example) with a response from that office in its official capacity serves as authoritative to me  Oh, yeah... and so does a directive from my bishop!  It just keeps going back to peoples' personal subjective preference over the authentically deputed bishop over them.  I choose to follow my bishop's lead and subject my personal preferences. 

 

 

There is something to be said for unity of posture, especially at the Lamb of God.  Jesus has spoken to me through my Bishop and told me to stand for the Lamb of God.  He gave my bishop that authority.  Why should I doubt him?  At least why should I not give him the benefit of any doubt?  Why instead give the benefit of the doubt to my personal preference?  

 

Why should I think that Jesus is calling little old me to do something distinctly different than what the bishop says and what 99.9% of my brothers and sisters are doing?  What is so special about me that I have this very special call?  What does anyone have to lose by erring on the side of what the bishop requests and what his brothers and sisters are doing?

 

None of the justifications to go against the bishop add up to me.  And none of the reasons for wanting to do their own special thing make any sense to me, except in the case of ignorance.

 

I yield to what the bishop and my pastor say.  If the posture some day changes to kneeling at that time, I will happily change and be obedient then, as that is my preferred position.

 

Regarding the insinuations against me personally--a few comments:

 

No, I am not "preoccupied" by this.  It's a message board topic.

 

I am not "huffy" about it in real life.  It's not realistic or reasonable to size a person up based on posts in one thread.  You end up with a very distorted picture of a person. 

 

I have as I have mentioned previously decided NOT to comment about this to anyone, unless it comes up naturally in a conversation.  If it does, then I will inform them as charitably as I can that I believe they are doing the wrong thing by kneeling at that point, and that even if they feel that position is more reverent, the greater and more important reverence lies in obedience and subordination of their will.

 

I don't spend my time at Mass fretting over this. I notice things that go on sometimes.  That's normal and it only takes a couple of seconds.  I go to daily Mass because it brings great peace into my life.

 

I certainly would not think a person who physically cannot stand to be disobedient.  It's very unkind to insinuate otherwise.

 

 

I have to share something interesting that happened at daily Mass today, especially since it coincided with this discussion.  A miracle!  One of the kneelers stood during the Lamb of God.  What the...?  I couldn't believe my eyes.  I've never said a word to her of all people because she would chew me up and spit me out.  It's interesting that she changed.  (Or maybe it was a mental lapse?  I'll soon know.  And it will only take half a second to find out. I promise not to dwell on it.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2014 by Pliny

[Winchester]

[freedomreigns]

Usually people who are really worried about the faults of others are not owning up to their own.  I have been guilty of this.  Maybe we should all take a moment to reflect on our own sinfulness and need for God's Mercy!

  

[KnightofChrist]

Pliny could you pm me your Bishop's name? I would like to write him a respectful letter and ask him if he minds if some of his flock kneels before the Lamb of God. I would also like to be interested if your Priest would attempt to correct someone if they knelled before the Lamb of God, or would he tolerate it, it seems he may.

Edited January 31, 2014 by KnightofChrist

[Archaeology cat]

To answer a question posed: I see various parishioners at my parish kneeling during parts where most sit. I see nothing wrong with it.

[Pliny]

Pliny could you pm me your Bishop's name? I would like to write him a respectful letter and ask him if he minds if some of his flock kneels before the Lamb of God. I would also like to be interested if your Priest would attempt to correct someone if they knelled before the Lamb of God, or would he tolerate it, it seems he may.

 

I'd rather just keep this on the board here.  I already stated that my pastor does not correct anyone.  He feels that he has done his part and it's not worth the trouble to make an issue about it.

 

And before anyone tells me to do likewise, I have already stated I'm not going to be saying anything to anyone.  The conversation evolved beyond that into a discussion about what authority the bishop has regarding liturgy.

[Pliny]

I think I owe my friend Aloy a few explanations:

 

BTW, you mentioned your friend was Mexican, the mantilla is culturally traditional for them, thank you very much.  Get your ethnocentric head out of the sand for goodness sake (I didn't want to say sand, but it's a family phorum).  seriously, what is wrong with you here?  leave these people the heck alone! 

 

 My friend is a Mexican but she does not wear mantilla. NONE of the women in our Hispanic community wears a mantilla.  I'm not "ethnocentric."  

 

Whether or not my post was in good taste is not a reason to go all ad hominem on me.

 

There isn't one person I have bothered.  There is one person who I told at our parish hall that she looked so much nicer without that dumb doily on her head, and she laughed.  She thought it was funny.  Anyway, maybe I shouldn't judge all by what I've seen for myself at my church.  Maybe there are others that are worn with more grace and style than what I've seen.

 

it's basically like saying "yeah, I think vestments look dumb, I think cassocks look dumb, I think clerics look dumb, I think habits look dumb, I think rosaries look dumb"  seriously.

 

 

I don't think it's like saying that at all.  But maybe I should have qualified it and said that those that I've seen for myself in person look that way.   

 

how dare you act all pompous and declare you think they "look dumb".  that's one of the most obnoxious comments I've ever seen, and I've been around these phorums quite a while.

 

 

Right or wrong I don't think its being "pompous" to state an opinion about how something looks to me.  But when I see a phrase like "how dare you" then I start thinking about pompousness.  

 

My bad for going off the topic.  I admit that.  But you really overreacted to my comment. If you're trying to be patient and respectful, I would hate to see what happens when you don't try.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Pliny

[Aloysius]

I may have overreacted, but when people say that using a sacramental in one's prayer life "looks dumb" it rather annoys me.  and the point of me saying I tried to be patient and respectful with you was referencing the other 11 pages of this thread, which I made sure was kept open even though most everyone else wanted it closed, so you could feel free to make your points.  that overreaction was when I stopped being very patient with you ;)

[KnightofChrist]

I'd rather just keep this on the board here. I already stated that my pastor does not correct anyone. He feels that he has done his part and it's not worth the trouble to make an issue about it.

And before anyone tells me to do likewise, I have already stated I'm not going to be saying anything to anyone. The conversation evolved beyond that into a discussion about what authority the bishop has regarding liturgy.

Then I will do the next best thing and write my Bishop, then perhaps the Vatican.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

 I would be very surprised if that is one of the "most obnoxious" posts in phatmass.  

 

 

Fortunately you are correct brother. I am the most obnoxious poster on phatmass, i one the title last year, but am getting better. :)

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

 

That's not nice! Why isn't pliny welcome, he is one whom is searching.

Edited January 31, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Quote

 I choose to listen to my bishop and submit my subjective likes/dislikes as a greater sign of reverence for Christ's local apostle.  To stand at the Lamb of God is no sacrilege as some might say.  If it was, then such a sacrilege is on the soul of the bishop, not mine.   I'm just following my marching orders.

 

The issue with this interpretation is that the local bishop has not stopped being the chief shepherd and he still decides the liturgical postures, not me nor a parish as a whole.  Another issue is that this Colin Donovan's opinion, though he may be an expert in these areas.  I cannot tell from his vitae of work on EWTN.  But, he is not an official representative of the U.S. Bishops or the Vatican, but rather of EWTN.

 

Fr. Z is no authority in my book.  But, I give him a break in that he's doing what he sees as his best.  I think we all are.  Though, by his own admission he says, at the bottom of his own webpage, "The opinions expressed on this blog don't necessarily reflect the positions of any of the Church's entities with which I am involved. They are my own."

 

Mr. Donovan and Fr. Z are not official representatives.  A question put to the Vatican's office of liturgy (the example with Cardinal Arinze is a perfect example) with a response from that office in its official capacity serves as authoritative to me  Oh, yeah... and so does a directive from my bishop!  It just keeps going back to peoples' personal subjective preference over the authentically deputed bishop over them.  I choose to follow my bishop's lead and subject my personal preferences. 

 

 

RESPECT THA BISH!

[Aloysius]

I reviewed a whole bunch of diocesan norms from the West Coast (not sure where else this is done) where this is a common thing, everywhere from Hawaii to California to Oregon and Washington, and I can't find a single strictly worded "you must stand" norm from a bishop.  I've seen norms that call it the "more appropriate" in that diocese, I've seen norms that describe it as the norm in the diocese (in a descriptive, not prescriptive way, ie 'in this diocese, the faithful stand at this point in the mass'), I haven't seen a single directive that requires it... every single one of them can be interpreted with the mens that the CDW suggests should be applied to the norms of the laity's posture at the various parts of the mass.

 

Fr. Z was only an authority to refute your Jimmy Akin "authority", btw, the crux of my argument from authority comes from the CDW's mens in interpreting norms for the postures of the laity at the various parts of the mass and the application of Canon 26 for immemorial and centennial customs... none of the norms I have found contain an explicit reprobation of the immemorial custom of kneeling at that time.

 

but we could go round and round with this forever, until it became such an immemorial custom that people would be able to keep discussing it on phatmass even when the phorum's norms were to discuss something else but it wasn't officially reprobated so a few of us would just keep going, like the song that never ends (which, little known fact, was originally a song written by Marty Haugan as an entrance hymn)... but I think all the points have been made already, I doubt there is any need to rehash anything at this point.

[brandelynmarie]

Pliny, what would you do if you felt in your heart of hearts that God wanted you to kneel, was calling you to kneel in His Prescence when everyone else was standing? This is a hypothetical question.

Edited January 31, 2014 by brandelynmarie