Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[Pliny]

How does this priest have so much free time to continue this discussion with you? I mean, we're kind of low priests. Sorry but it does come off pretty OCD, all this hyper-focus... Incidentally this is one of the big turn-offs to Catholicism - an obsession with documents, conformity in tiny details, etc. I can't picture Jesus telling people they need to find and read the right document in order to worship him correctly. This may make me a bad Catholic but there it. is.

 

It's not either/or.

 

And this for me has been a point of discussion and not an obsession.

 

I'm happy that my priest is accessible to answer questions.

 

But the big "turn off" to Catholicism is NOT the documents and details.  That's just an excuse.  The turn off is that it usually means admitting our errors and changing our ways.

 

Can you picture Jesus telling us to not eat meat on Fridays so we can worship Him Correctly?  I can't. But I'll still do what the Church says, and would not feel good about willfully shunning this technicality.

 

I don't think you're a "bad Catholic" either, but your comments shed no light on the subject and were just a subtle form of name-calling directed at me and my priest, and if you had read the entire thread, you would have seen that I had already received a substantial amount of such comments.

[Pliny]

Anyway I am glad you recognized it was not a good comment to make, I realize I reacted harshly, but from my perspective it is right up there with saying rosaries look dumb because veils are likewise a sacramental that people use to aid their prayer life, making any such comments totally not cool, bro.

 

 

If someone HAD said rosaries look dumb, as someone who prays the rosary every day, I would not have been offended or gone off on someone for it.  Why would I care?  I'm secure in my devotions and such comments would just seem silly to me.

 

My problem with your comment was not the harshness but the self-righteous attitude.  You were on an ego trip. 

 

BTW I do have a rosary that "looks dumb."  String and plastic.  Very tacky looking.

 

 

[NotreDame]

Everyone... Pliny was originally strangely adamant (from our points of view) about pursuing the topic in this thread, but he's never lost his cool nor admitted to actually doing anything strange, so let's keep it in perspective... After all, to quote Pliny, "this is just the internet."

Edited February 7, 2014 by NotreDame

[Winchester]

I would... but with the sweater and veil she's indistinguishable from the old church ladies.  Plus she is hard-core and doesn't turn around during the sign of peace.  I don't find out it's her until communion, when I'm all heads-down.  Basically, I'm stuck cornering her on the way out of mass.  Not weird at all.
 

You really are paying attention. Have you tried working with a partner? Perhaps get one of the elderly parishioners to fake a medical problem. You announce loudly "I am a doctor of Emergency Medicine!" and do something medical. Jab your partner with a needle, or something. That will get her attention. To avoid awkwardness, on your first date, explain how you lost your medical license earlier that morning because you wouldn't perform abortions.

[KnightofChrist]

Everyone... Pliny was originally strangely adamant (from our points of view) about pursuing the topic in this thread, but he's never lost his cool nor admitted to actually doing anything strange, so let's keep it in perspective... After all, to quote Pliny, "this is just the internet."

Yes, you're right, I guess but it would be easier to have more sympathy for him, if he had not repeatedly spoken so ill and negatively of those that kneel when he doesn't approve. It's a little silly to object to such behavior whilst also being guilty of it. It's silly and an example of it is his getting huffy at Winnie for calling him huffy, after he called some lady huffy in the first post.

[reyb]

In the case of kneeling (or standing) for the Ecce Agnus Dei, despite local norms, there is no 100% right or wrong. You need to take into consideration immemorial custom, local custom and the fact that Rome allows for persons to stand or kneel. 

 

It's strange to me that you feel you know better than Holy Mother Church. "Rome has spoken, the case is closed." Deal with it. 

 

As St. Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 6:11-13 (quoted by Benedict XVI in his Accompanying Letter to Summorum Pontificum in 2007): "Our mouth is open to you... our hearts are wide. You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted in your own affections. In return... widen your hearts also." 

 

I just started to read this post and as I go along (so please excuse me if I am little bit off) I find that....

Your usage of 2 Cor 6:11 as reference in showing brotherly affection in allowing little differences though leading to one thing, is entirely wrong.

 

Of course, anyone can quote verses for their own purposes (and as a reminder, please read 2 Peter 3:16) but, Apostle Paul is obviously not speaking that way when he said ‘We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you. We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. As a fair exchange — I speak as to my children — open wide your hearts also.

Edited February 8, 2014 by reyb

[Pliny]

Everyone... Pliny was originally strangely adamant (from our points of view) about pursuing the topic in this thread, but he's never lost his cool nor admitted to actually doing anything strange, so let's keep it in perspective... After all, to quote Pliny, "this is just the internet."

 

Thank you.

 

The fact is that I have done zip in real life about this, and have no plans to take it further.  One thing I neglected to say that my pastor told me was to keep this issue "small," and after a few days of thinking about this issue, see it that way and it's no big deal to me.  Yes it did ruffle my feathers a little, but that has passed. 

 

It never occurred to me that we would be also be going down a road regarding liturgical norms, etc., and that was interesting and enlightening.

 

I'm a little perplexed by all the comments about being "obsessive." For this particular thread it's "as if" that is all I am concerned about, but that's not the case in reality.

 

I do wonder now if it's odd to notice things.  It takes only a few seconds to notice something, but when explained, it might appear to be a bigger concern than what it is.  For example, I sometimes notice that some people I know sometimes do not receive Communion and receive a blessing instead.  I don't look for those things, but sometimes I see them and wonder why.  Is that abnormal?  Of course I would never ask, but when I see that they are always married women who appear to be "fertile," and/or the husbands of such women, I can't help but speculate a little.  Not my business, I know, but I can't help what I see and I can't help the thoughts that follow.

 

Based on some of the comments I've received in this thread, I would not be the slightest bit surprised if I am upbraided for watching everyone during Communion instead of centering myself, but again, I'm referring to something that was inadvertently noticed and some thoughts about it, taking all of one or two seconds.

[Pliny]

Yes, you're right, I guess but it would be easier to have more sympathy for him, if he had not repeatedly spoken so ill and negatively of those that kneel when he doesn't approve. It's a little silly to object to such behavior whilst also being guilty of it. It's silly and an example of it is his getting huffy at Winnie for calling him huffy, after he called some lady huffy in the first post.

 

Who is "Winnie"?  Winnie the Pooh?

[KnightofChrist]

And Tigger too...

[Pliny]

See, I never had a Winnie the Pooh or Tigger stuffed animal.  So maybe NOW you understand and can have some sympathy for me.

 

 

[cmaD2006]

 

I do wonder now if it's odd to notice things.  It takes only a few seconds to notice something, but when explained, it might appear to be a bigger concern than what it is.  For example, I sometimes notice that some people I know sometimes do not receive Communion and receive a blessing instead.  I don't look for those things, but sometimes I see them and wonder why.  Is that abnormal?  Of course I would never ask, but when I see that they are always married women who appear to be "fertile," and/or the husbands of such women, I can't help but speculate a little.  Not my business, I know, but I can't help what I see and I can't help the thoughts that follow.

 

 

Ah.  If I paid attention to who was receiving communion and who wasn't I'd run out of time to say thanks to the Lord for having communion.

 

In the Latino community, it is quite common to have a couple who is not married in the Church but at least is faithful enough to attend Mass weekly even though they have an impediment.

 

And well -- if you have an RCIA candidate who is not dismissed at the appropriate time during Mass, they may go up for a blessing.

 

Eh -- the only people I pay attention to as to whether or not they go up to communion are my Godchildren.  I have a responsability to properly educate them on the faith -- so if I see one of them not going up for communion I immediately go "ok -- what's up?"  In that case ... it isn't so imprudent for me to point blank ask why they didn't receive communion, because it is my responsability to help them learn to do what is right.

[KnightofChrist]

See, I never had a Winnie the Pooh or Tigger stuffed animal. So maybe NOW you understand and can have some sympathy for me.

Oh bother. No I don't think so, it changes nothing. You cannot gain much sympathy if you complain about being ill treated by others here, when you've spoken ill of and have been disrespectful of those that kneel.

Also Winnie is short for Winchester.

[Maggyie]

I do wonder now if it's odd to notice things. It takes only a few seconds to notice something, but when explained, it might appear to be a bigger concern than what it is. For example, I sometimes notice that some people I know sometimes do not receive Communion and receive a blessing instead. I don't look for those things, but sometimes I see them and wonder why. Is that abnormal? Of course I would never ask, but when I see that they are always married women who appear to be "fertile," and/or the husbands of such women, I can't help but speculate a little. Not my business, I know, but I can't help what I see and I can't help the thoughts that follow.

Based on some of the comments I've received in this thread, I would not be the slightest bit surprised if I am upbraided for watching everyone during Communion instead of centering myself, but again, I'm referring to something that was inadvertently noticed and some thoughts about it, taking all of one or two seconds.

You can't help the thoughts but it's wrong to entertain them. I am sure from your writing that you are making assumptions about these peoples sex lives and their openness to life etc. which is inappropriate and borderline sinful (except the thoughts come to you unbidden, like impure thoughts sometimes do to people, and therefore at least initially it's not sinful).

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Oh bother. No I don't think so, it changes nothing. You cannot gain much sympathy if you complain about being ill treated by others here, when you've spoken ill of and have been disrespectful of those that kneel.

Also Winnie is short for Winchester.

 

 

It is not what we say often but how we say it.

 

Also pliny yeah get out of that thinking what other people are doing in the dark stuff, i do that to and it's horrible for me. I had a guy tell me we can abstain from the eucharist prayerfuly sometimes for whatever reason and i don't know if this is true, but also i have had people aghast at people not taking communion, but me personally if i need confession and haven't been confessed and absolved i don't take communion in accordance with saint pauls warnings of " he whom partakes of the precious body of christ without first discerning will receive judgement from God but only so he will avoid hell." words to that effect anyway,  but i still attend holy mass and sometimes go up for a blessing in those times.

 

Jesus iz LORD.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

It also could be scruples and no mortal sin involved whatsoever. :) Have sympathy for them anyway whatever the reason.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[beatitude]

You can't help the thoughts but it's wrong to entertain them. I am sure from your writing that you are making assumptions about these peoples sex lives and their openness to life etc. which is inappropriate and borderline sinful (except the thoughts come to you unbidden, like impure thoughts sometimes do to people, and therefore at least initially it's not sinful).

 

I receive a blessing instead of Communion if I eat something too close to Mass time or sometimes just because it's been a while since my last confession and I would prefer to make a confession before receiving. There is rarely any mortal sin involved in my decision not to receive, and I know it's like this for many people. There is no obligation to take Communion at every Mass you can. If I thought that someone was looking at me receiving a blessing and going, "Hm, she looks young and fertile, she could be having sex outside marriage!" I would be a bit creeped out.

 

And if I knew that there was a couple living in irregular circumstances who still came to Mass, but without taking Communion, I would just be glad that they have the faith to come to Mass still and I would pray that God helps them. That's if I noticed them not receiving Communion at all. Why would you notice? I usually have my head bowed at this time, and even if I stared at the front, I wouldn't be able to see who was receiving and who was getting blessed - there is a line of people in the way. Pliny, I don't understand how you are able to notice this about other churchgoers unless you're going out of your way to scrutinise them.

[Aloysius]

Hey man, I realize I was harsh, it just felt like you were being directly insulting to something that I know if very sacred and special to many people, including very close friends of mine, just because it made you uncomfortable.  I know people who found it really special and loved doing it and it enhanced their prayer life and they felt they had to stop because of social pressure, and that's really an awful thing.  people give dirty looks, act cold towards them, snub them for liturgical ministries, etc... all for using a sacramental immemorially connected with the Holy Mass that beautifully enhances their worship of our Lord.  That's why it really annoyed me.  It wasn't an ego trip, it was you striking a nerve by insulting something that's very special to many people.

 

Other than that I have found you respectful and have insisted that the thread stay open so you can make your points, man.  I didn't like people suggesting you were "trolling" and called them out on that (it's an overused word around these parts for "person who's persisting in an argument I strongly disagree with, shouldn't they just change their mind and agree with me already?")... the points about whether you were obsessive especially since they keep recurring are a bit annoying because any good thread on an online forum that miraculously manages to stay on topic will look like it's obsessing over that topic... though in any liturgical matter there is ALWAYS a point for us ALL to reflect upon how much we are allowing that point to distract us from our worship (as all of us are imperfect and each of us find our own distractions, for some of us those distractions are actually an attachment to the rubrics, it can be something that is a detriment to our worship).  Ultimately we must simply agree to disagree, just don't insult women or girls that veil or you'll make me angry, and you clearly don't like me when I'm angry.

[attachment=3251:hulk.jpg]

[Pliny]

Oh bother. No I don't think so, it changes nothing. You cannot gain much sympathy if you complain about being ill treated by others here, when you've spoken ill of and have been disrespectful of those that kneel.

Also Winnie is short for Winchester.

 

You're taking this a little too seriously.

 

Also, for the record, I kneel as well, just not at the times my bishop and good manners say that I should stand or sit.

[Pliny]

And if I knew that there was a couple living in irregular circumstances who still came to Mass, but without taking Communion, I would just be glad that they have the faith to come to Mass still and I would pray that God helps them. That's if I noticed them not receiving Communion at all. Why would you notice? I usually have my head bowed at this time, and even if I stared at the front, I wouldn't be able to see who was receiving and who was getting blessed - there is a line of people in the way. Pliny, I don't understand how you are able to notice this about other churchgoers unless you're going out of your way to scrutinise them.

 

 

I had a feeling I would get a reaction like this.

 

I don't walk around with my eyes closed during Mass.  I don't particularly look for anything, but if someone I know who always receives Communion receives a blessing, and I happen to notice it, then I notice it.  I don't have to go out of my way to see what the person in front of me does in the Communion line, and I especially don't have go out of my way to notice someone standing at the end of the pew waving everyone past her and not going up herself.  Again, this is something that takes a second to notice, but much more than that to explain, and there will always be those who can't put it in perspective or who are looking to turn an innocent observation into something bad.

 

Note that I never said anything about "sex outside of marriage," but was referring to married couples.

 

I think it's natural to notice things and think about things.  But maybe it's not smart to post about such things here since they will often be misunderstood and misinterpreted, and there will always be those who are quick to see an evil intent.

 

However this issue has made me think about tow things and I have two questions.  These are questions and not positions I'm taking--I really don't know:

 

1) Are those in an "irregular" situation in a state of mortal sin?  For example I have a friend who cannot receive the sacraments and does not receive Communion.  I'm fairly certain it has to do with a divorce and remarriage.  She goes to Mass regularly but receives a blessing.  Note that I didn't have to go out of my way to "scrutinize" what she does, since she told me herself, and since she often is just ahead of me in the Communion line.

 

2) If a husband forces a form of contraception on a wife, and she goes along with it, but unwillingly, can she receive Communion under any circumstances?  Is she in a state of mortal sin?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Lilllabettt]

I think it's natural to notice things and think about things.

 

 

 

It's "natural" to notice things. It may be "natural" to "think" about those things, too. But there is the line where you need to start acting supernaturally - when you start thinking about things that are none of your concern.  Going back to my post in this thread about stopping involuntarily mental commentary on things you notice ... if you realize you are "thinking" about things that are none of your business, interrupt your train of thought and refocus your attention elsewhere. With practice it will get easier to "see" things without producing mental commentary.  This is a vitally important skill for recollection at Mass. Its a help to prayer life in general.