Winchester Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 That's not nice! Why isn't pliny welcome, he is one whom is searching. It's a pretty sweet bike. I don't see the problem.
Pliny Posted January 31, 2014 Author Posted January 31, 2014 Pliny, what would you do if you felt in your heart of hearts that God wanted you to kneel, was calling you to kneel in His Prescence when everyone else was standing? This is a hypothetical question. My logic would tell me that God would not contradict the Bishop he gave me, and that I should trust the Church and not my heart in this matter. That I have nothing to lose by being obedient or giving the benefit of the doubt to the bishop who is doing his job and not asking me to sin or commit an error. I actually USED to feel the way you've presented your hypothetical, and DID KNEEL at that time in spite of what the pastor asked. (This was almost 20 years ago just after I had become a Catholic). So I have learned from that that my heart can deceive me and needs to be led by an informed intellect. I am now confident that God is not going to inspire me to do something that causes me to do something that sets me apart in a special way during the Mass (except in doing things such as being a lector or singing in the choir, etc.). I would feel that any promptings to do so would be my ego talking to me and not God. Thank you for presenting your question in kindly manner.
KnightofChrist Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 It's a pretty sweet bike. I don't see the problem. Nor was there a problem in the original post when someone was called "huffy".
Pliny Posted January 31, 2014 Author Posted January 31, 2014 That's not nice! Why isn't pliny welcome, he is one whom is searching. Thanks for the support. I don't feel so lonely now. I don't know what the bike picture means, though. Anyway, there were far too many posts like that in this thread that were about or against me personally and not regarding the actual topic.
KnightofChrist Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Nor was there a problem in the original post when someone was called "huffy". or prideful, or wrathful, or unhumble...
Pliny Posted January 31, 2014 Author Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) like the song that never ends (which, little known fact, was originally a song written by Marty Haugan as an entrance hymn)... but I think all the points have been made already, I doubt there is any need to rehash anything at this point. Interesting. What is the title of that song? If and when I have the time I will try to pull the best points from this thread and present them again to my pastor, but that might not be for some time. I agree with your point about rehashing this and that if I don't receive any comments to which I need to respond, I will soon be removing my freaking ethnocentric self from this thread. But for whatever it's worth to anyone, once again, I have decided NOT to "correct" my friend or anyone else regarding this matter and will only discuss it if it comes up naturally during a conversation. But I am heartened that one of the ladies who was always a kneeler at the Lamb of God has now become a stander, and I'm very curious why, but am not going to approach her either. For those worried about me and my spirituality during Mass--thanks but this issue is not the big concern it appears to be to you. I was used to the disunity, and will get used to my friend doing something different. I'm well aware that in the overall scheme of things this is something that is small and not large, and that my main. concern is my own soul and my own sins. Overall, this has been a fun thread. I enjoyed the conversation. Edited January 31, 2014 by Pliny
NotreDame Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 I will just add that, prior to this thread, I had no idea why some people stood in Roman Rite masses. Now I know more than I ever wanted to.
BG45 Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 I think I've only chimed in to make a random comment thus far, but I assure you my motivations in not participating are not expressed by the below meme: Rather it's more "I'm doing dissertation surveys, job hunting, and teaching a full course load and tend to under-mod anyhow". Still read all 12 pages thus far though!
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Pliny is under the protection of TAB now. :reaper:
Pliny Posted January 31, 2014 Author Posted January 31, 2014 Pliny ... can I close it now? It's very kind of you to ask. But...there is a recent related development in the choir. We've been directed to stand during the Consecration and do a profound bow when the Host is elevated. And that's fine liturgically speaking from what I can determine and with me personally. We have a particular job in the liturgy and are often in a different position than the congregation because we need to stand to sing. Besides there is little room to kneel, no kneelers, music stands in the way, and it would be a big mess and draw attention to ourselves to kneel at that time, besides the fact that we would not be ready to sing the Memorial Acclamation. However, and I'm not making this up, there is one person who insists upon kneeling in spite of the instructions he received. So, IN THIS CASE, would it be ok to correct a fellow choir member? Would it be ok to pressure the choir director to correct him? Or should we just let him do his thing? I think he's not going to change and should be booted. I'm wondering if we can have some agreement regarding unity of posture at least for this group involved in the liturgy? (This might be good for another 10 pages!)
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) :LOL2: Edited January 31, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 (edited) The bike thing Pliny i think was an old saying meaning go away or go for a short ride and cool down. " on your bike." Something like that anyway. Edited January 31, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye
KnightofChrist Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 So, IN THIS CASE, would it be ok to correct a fellow choir member? No. Would it be ok to pressure the choir director to correct him? No. Or should we just let him do his thing? Leave him alone, leave anyone else you notice kneeling where you think they should not alone. I think he's not going to change and should be booted. That's a BIG NO! Leave him alone! I'm wondering if we can have some agreement regarding unity of posture at least for this group involved in the liturgy? No, leave these people alone. You say you're not overly concerned with other people at Holy Mass, but you keep bringing up various different people kneeling at different times. (This might be good for another 10 pages!) No, no and no.
Pliny Posted February 1, 2014 Author Posted February 1, 2014 I think you're very wrong in this case KnightofChrist. If you want to take me to task for my previous opinions regarding the general congregation that's one thing, but though this is related, it's a different situation. Would you go so far as to say the choir director or pastor has no right to remove him from the choir?
Lilllabettt Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 lemme get this straight. you want the pastor to remove somebody from a church ministry. Because he or she is kneeling at the consecration. ??????
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) Correct is the right answer to a question. Gently advising without judgement or condemnation is creating hope and respect for the advised. I think pliny means advise his brethren not judge or condemn. Edited February 1, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye
Tab'le De'Bah-Rye Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) http://youtu.be/5xKXtPaSNH4 Don't wan't war people, don't start war. :P Woops this is a debate thread, carry on columbus'. Edited February 1, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye
Pliny Posted February 1, 2014 Author Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) lemme get this straight. you want the pastor to remove somebody from a church ministry. Because he or she is kneeling at the consecration. ?????? Wow, what a way to take it out of context. I want the person in the choir to be one with the choir and do as instructed by the pastor and choir director. Do you dispute that the pastor or choir director has that authority? Remember, this is the choir. We're not in the pews. We have a job to do and kneeling is not practical or proper at that point FOR US. He is more than welcome to leave the choir and kneel at the Consecration as the rest of us do when not in the choir. Edited February 1, 2014 by Pliny
Aloysius Posted February 1, 2014 Posted February 1, 2014 [attachment=3250:6813680-old-man-goes-to-great-historical-bike.jpg] EVERY single person in the Roman Rite has the absolute right to kneel at the consecration, regardless of whether they're in the choir or not. nobody except the Pope himself has the authority to not allow someone to kneel for the consecration to worship their Lord. "why don't you kneel? why don't you crawl? -Cardinal Arinze" I guarantee you... and I would bet you dollars to donuts, that if someone tried to throw someone out of a choir for kneeling at the consecration and the question came to Rome about it, you'd get a smackdown from Rome worse than the smack down Cardinal Arinze gave last time someone tried to act like there was any kind of liturgical rule prohibiting any knee from bending to worship our Lord in the Eucharist. could you please try to get with the mens of the Holy Church regarding lay postures at the various parts of the mass, rather than your own rather strange regimentation of them?
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