Would You Correct A Friend Who Is Doing Something Wrong At Mass?

[cmaD2006]

I have decided for now not to approach my friend because I can't think of a way to do it without it being awkward.  The other factor is that she is Mexican and her English skills are not that great and my Spanish skills are not that great.  We can communicate using a combination of English and Spanish, and I could get my point across in Spanish, but my Spanish isn't good enough for a sophisticated follow-up conversation.  So I'm going to wait to see if there is a more natural way to do this, unless in the interim, I become convinced that she and others really do have the legitimate right to ignore the mandate or directive, or whatever is the appropriate term.

 

Wait ... that does change things a bit.

 

You may not be aware -- but there are those of Latino heritage that do what's called a "promesa".  She could be kneeling because of that?  Or for a spiritual reason?

 

And with the language issue -- you may very well come across too strong. 

 

If you are friends with her, you could always ask her for her reasons why she kneels.  That may give you enough info to let her be.  Or -- if it is a real pastoral concern to you, bring it up with the priest to give appropriate instructions at Mass.  Then it is on the priest, not on your conscience.

[Aloysius]

I think the best term to use is "local norm" rather than "directive" or "mandate"... it's a local norm set by the bishop rather than an order or an obligation.  in some cases some norms have been described as descriptive rather than prescriptive, meaning when one says "the norm here is to do x" what they're really saying is that is just the way things are done here, not establishing it as an obligation.

 

I agree with the poster before who said an average pastor is unlikely to delve into the question from the same perspective we did, in terms of actually digging through the actual wording of the GIRM, the debates of the USCCB bishops, and the indications from the CDW in Rome in how to interpret the norms.  An average pastor is much more likely to simply offer a pastoral answer, but one which wouldn't satisfy a legalistic question... although perhaps your pastor is a liturgy geek like some of us are and will have some in depth answer of his own haha.  anyway, if he's like any normal pastor who doesn't want to get bogged down in such intricacies (and who can blame them?  as long as they're saying the black, doing the red, and doing their best, I see no need for all pastors to be detailed liturgy geeks), but you really really want an answer, feel free to write a dubia to the CDW yourself.  Not sure you will get a prompt answer or even one at all since you're 1) not a bishop and 2) not asking about a situation in which there was a significant controversy (if you want to get noticed by the CDW, try to convince your pastor to make a scene confronting the old ladies who kneel lol :P):

 

Antonio Cardinal Cañizares Llovera

Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments

Palazzo delle Congregazioni,

Piazza Pio XII, 10

00193 Roma, Italy

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

You sound a lot like Q from Star Trek TNG's first episode, he also would not accept any answer than the one he wanted to hear...

 

 

 

 

Star trek is a pagan tool to teach people how to bind with there mind people, places and things to the pagan standards to enslave others as a sacrificial victim/vampires/souls devourers, as is many other science fiction m ovies and series. That's what i was told anyway. But ya'll don't believe in curses right?

Edited January 26, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Pliny]

I don't think we could reduce what is clearly stated in the GIRM as the bishop's right, to a "local norm."

 

At any rate, I had a talk with my pastor today, and he was basically in agreement with me that those who defy the bishop regarding this posture are ignorant or rebellious, and if their consciences permit them to do this, then their consciences have been poorly formed.

 

He doesn't let them off the hook for being ignorant however, since he took great pains to teach everyone the proper postures, etc., as per the changes that came in 2010.   

 

I don't understand at all the argument that one can ignore the bishop if one thoughtfully prays about it.  Why would anyone want to do that in the first place?  And why would anyone want to assume a posture that makes them stand out and be different than the rest? 

 

Here's something I've been pondering since veiling was mentioned and I discussed that a little with my pastor.  Every woman who kneels in opposition to what our bishop says they should do, also wears a veil!  And every woman (at daily Mass) who wears a veil, also kneels at the wrong time. (With the exception of my friend who does not wear a veil).  And they are the only ones.  So they do TWO things that clearly and obviously sets them apart visually from the rest of the community.  Of course I'm not saying that it's wrong to wear a veil, though I wonder why one would want to dress outside of what is the norm, and in a way that tends to make her stand out like a sore thumb, since there are so few who wear veils.  Our pastor does not preach against it, but he does not allow veils to be worn by Eucharistic ministers, lectors, or anyone involved in the liturgy, as he feels it would be disruptive since it draws attention to their extraordinary way of dressing.  His feeling about veils is that wearing them is outside of the norm of what would be considered normal dress, as he also says about wearing something that is obviously too casual, like a bathing suit, or something too formal, such as a tuxedo.  But once again, he doesn't preach against it.

 

So why wouldn't these women be concerned about sticking out like sore thumbs in TWO respects?  What is wrong with blending in with the rest, especially in the area of the liturgy where the bishop has spoken? 

 

There are about seven ladies who attend daily Mass who wear veils and who kneel instead of stand as required by the bishop.  And most of them I know fairly well.  I don't say they're bad people, but I do know that some of them are extremely strong-willed and pushy about their projects, and some of them preach dogmatically regarding the special things they do during the Mass, and regarding how to receive Communion.  In other words, I have seen a very prideful side to some of these women, so in my mind it follows that they would allow their pride to get the better of them and substitute their personal preference for that which is required by legitimate authority.  I think these ladies (some of them, not all because I think a couple of them are followers) could be making an idol out of the things that they do that are different and better than what others do.

 

I told my pastor that in a way I feel as though they are insulting the rest of us who are not making that special posture, as if we are somehow not being as reverent by standing.  He said he understood that and that he gets a little irritated by them as well, but it's a battle that is not worth fighting, especially since there are so few of them.  He cautioned me not to make this a cause or to correct them, not that it isn't my right, but for my own sake, that it would not go well for me.  Though I charitably have listened to their preaching about veils, about how to receive Communion, and the bad things about our (previous) bishop,  just giving an article about postures to one of the veiled kneelers who I know very well caused her to get all huffy with me. She even told me that Father gave her permission to kneel, and he told me today he never has given such permission, since it's not his authority to do so.  At best he would have said that he couldn't stop her from doing her own thing.

 

I would HAPPILY have a discussion with them about what they think is right, or what they think I should change, even the lady who told me that it's a sacrilege that I receive Communion in the hand.  I didn't get huffy because I'm secure in what I do and know I'm in line with the Church teachings.  I think I have to worry about their reactions because they do not have that kind of humility and they have no way to support their positions.  

 

Regarding this "debate."  I didn't start it to be a debate about this issue, since I assumed we were all on the same page regarding obedience to the bishop. I'm frankly shocked that we are not.  I know that some think some good arguments have been presented and the fellow who insinuated that I was "trolling" seems to think I should be overwhelmed by the "evidence" but I am not.  I have no axe to grind here regarding that issue, and I looked at it from the perspective as whether I could find something convincing that would permit me to do what I prefer to do, which is to kneel at that point, but I have not seen anything conclusive.

 

The authorities that I have on my side are the Bishop, Jimmy Aiken, my pastor, and my own common sense.  Those authorities trump the authorities here "FOR ME."  I realize that that in no way proves a point to anyone else, though I don't know why they wouldn't be respected (except for the last one), and at this point I really don't care to and don't have the time to do any more research.  If some day I come up with something better as far as a debate is concerned I will post it.

 

I'm convinced these ladies are in the wrong.  I'm a little sad that my friend has joined them, though I give her the benefit of the doubt that she doesn't know any better.  But I'm not going to approach her or anyone else about what they do.  I'm only going to discuss it if they bring up the subject to me or if such a conversation would occur in a natural way.

 

I don't mean to be too harsh regarding these ladies as I still love them.  Father said if I am tempted to feel negatively towards them that I should think instead about the ways (and there are many) that I too have been prideful or disobedient to what I know is right, and focus on my own faults, and I think that's very good advice.

 

So I'm done with this thread now, unless someone has a specific comment or question for me.  I have appreciated the opportunity to vent here, which might have helped keep me out of trouble in my "real" life in our church.

 

 

 

 

 

[NotreDame]

At any rate, I had a talk with my pastor today, and he was basically in agreement with me that those who defy the bishop regarding this posture are ignorant or rebellious, and if their consciences permit them to do this, then their consciences have been poorly formed.

 

He doesn't let them off the hook for being ignorant however, since he took great pains to teach everyone the proper postures, etc., as per the changes that came in 2010.  

 

I just find this impossible to believe.  I've been catholic my whole life.  I go to mass 2-3 times a week.  I've never heard any instruction on standing versus kneeling ever.  Outside of one very orthodox parish where everyone kneels, I've never seen a pastor go to great pains to teach anyone anything, so color me skeptical with regard to your story. 

 

Also, to my earlier point, the priest is likely not any better informed than the posters on this thread.  All you have posted is another unsubstantiated opinion.  You need to go straight to the bishop. 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Pliny you have the bishops orders, you have your parish priests opinion. Did you ask your parish priest if it would be ok for you to inform of or re-iterate to your brethren the bishops wishes of the people in his diocese? If the parish priest says yes than go for it.  Oh also did the bishop address the diocese in a letter, because if he did than it probably would be good to get a few copies of that and highlight the area you are concerned about and give it to your friend, the letter if there was one should be on the net somewhere. But remember you are just informing someone of something the bishop has asked you are not correcting someone else, you used the word correct your friend, i don't think you have to correct her or him, if there in serious error they need to correct themselves, you just need to love them and inform them of the truth.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Tab'le De'Bah-Rye

[Aloysius]

Well I am disappointed in your pastor's response. did you show him the CDW's answer where it states how those norms are meant to be interpreted "for the various parts of the mass" and ask him about that?  Anyway I am at least glad that he advised you not to bother these poor people about the issue.

 

Unfortunately, there are quite a few people out there, priests included, who are ignorant of the way the norms of the GIRM are meant to work.  it is clear that you are very irked by the things these ladies do.  Personally I am far more irked by people who have legalistic attitudes like yours about postures at mass, it feels so totally and completely alien to my faith, and to the entire spirit, history, and nature of the sacred liturgy.  But anyway, we'll have to try not to bicker about that, but if I was traveling through your diocese and didn't do my postures in lockstep with others and you came up to me to tell me I was wrong, well then there would be fisticuffs :fight:.  I hope you will find a way to be at peace with it and just let it go and not treat their worship of Christ as some kind of insult to yours, which it certainly is not.  I will leave this thread myself with a quote from Cardinal Arinze, who had no patience for those who tried to forbid people from kneeling at any point in the liturgy.

 

 

 We have reached a stage where some are against kneeling if you kneel, they are harsh on you.  They treat you as if you did something wrong.  What is wrong with that?  If you believe that Christ is God and He is present, why don't you kneel? Why don't you crawl?  

 

[brandelynmarie]

Coming late into the thread, I remember years ago when our priest insisted we stand for the Consecration to be in union with our Eastern brothers & sisters. I do not believe it came from our bishop. I knelt at the Consecration because I was a RC at a Roman Rite Mass & that is how I acknowledge & worship Him. I was taught to do that when I entered the Church...I did not feel rebellious & no one ever said a word to me.

At the Maronite Rite Liturgy that I occasionally attend, sometimes someone will stand at the Consecration...no matter, I'm there to be with Him...I pay them no mind.

Now that being said, I will not join hands at the Our Father like many do in my parish... I close my eyes & don't look around.


I have a very strong live & let live policy as long as no one is desacrating our Lord in the Most Blessed Sacrament.

[brandelynmarie]

Desecrating...can't spell...my bad.

[Archaeology cat]

I'm with Al. Since veiling and kneeling are mentioned, let me say I do both. But I do not do so to stand out. I do so after prayerful discernment and out of humility. It is easy to be prideful or worried about hair/appearance - a veil doesn't allow that (for me). Especially since I have to tie my mantilla behind my hair so my youngest doesn't pull it off, so it' hardly beautiful that way. I kneel to receive the Eucharist, even though the norm is to stand. Why? Because, for me, I feel I must throw myself on my knees before my Lord. Des that make me more reverent than the ones standing? Absolutely not. I started receiving on the tongue when I had a child, as I no longer had both hands free. I guess my point here is that one should never assume the intentions of another. To one, it may look like someone is just trying to stand out, but that person may actually be really nervous about attention but are doing that anyway because of prayerful discernment. Now, I also have an advantage in our bishop asking people to kneel after receiving the Eucharist (our pastor had asked people to stand, but the Bishop asked us to kneel, so the pastor changed it); I actually hadn't known the pastor had requested that and was kneeling when we got there. Not out of disobedience, and of course the CDW doc shows that even had I known I wouldn't have been disobedient, since that posture can't be mandated. Anyway, I guess my whole point is that we don't know the intentions of another and ere fire should always assume the best. And that we needn't get so hung up on those things where we have more freedom.

[Pliny]

I just find this impossible to believe.  I've been catholic my whole life.  I go to mass 2-3 times a week.  I've never heard any instruction on standing versus kneelingever.  

 

 

So now I'm a troll AND a liar?  Nice.

 

I suppose I should consider myself blessed to have such a thorough pastor.

[Aloysius]

no need to get so defensive there, mate, Notre Dame also found it impossible to believe it wasn't butter, but I never heard them calling that company that makes the stuff a liar.  perhaps he just thinks they exaggerate about the non-buttery-ness of it...

[Pliny]

Unfortunately, there are quite a few people out there, priests included, who are ignorant of the way the norms of the GIRM are meant to work.  it is clear that you are very irked by the things these ladies do.  Personally I am far more irked by people who have legalistic attitudes like yours about postures at mass, it feels so totally and completely alien to my faith, and to the entire spirit, history, and nature of the sacred liturgy. 

 

 

Sorry but there is no reason for me to presume you are smarter about the liturgy than a published liturgical expert, my bishop, and my pastor.  HERE, you will receive many pats on the back, especially from those who justify going against their local bishop.  I'd like to see how it holds up in the real world, no offense intended.

 

I'm not as "irked" as it may seem, however.  When things become topics of discussion they take on larger than life proportions.  And this has only become a point of renewed contention for me recently because of observing the changes my friend has made.  Otherwise I had gotten used to their disobedience and it really was not that much of a concern for me.  To me, they're the kooky extreme ladies and I have to make allowances for them and have to be grateful for their sake that they are at least there.  I have two grown sons who left the Church, and I certainly would prefer them being back and disobedient at that point, than being the non-believers they are now.

 

If my attitude about this "irks" you, than so be it, though I don't think it's appropriate to label it as "legalism."  Let's just say I'm sensitive to rude and disrespectful behavior, especially at Mass, and cannot understand why a person would want to do her own special thing in defiance of the pastor and bishop.  Sorry, but I can't see it as anything else except in the case of invincible ignorance.

 

And those who do their special thing such as kneeling to receive Communion outside of a setting where it would be normal such as with Communion rails, etc., really SHOULD think about how is appears to others.  In spite of good intentions, what are others to think regarding what they have been instructed to do?  That it's wrong?  That it's ok, but gee, we really should be more humble like that lady who prostrates herself?  Or, worse, who is that nut or who does she think she is?  Why not keep the personal piety constrained to a setting that is more private?

 

If I visit your Church I will do what the others do.  If in your diocese they kneel after the Lamb of God, I will happily kneel.  I will conform because the bishop has that authority and for the sake of unity.  I'm going to respect your bishop, your pastor, the congregation, and you.  If you come to my parish and kneel at that time, with full knowledge of what the Bishop requires, I won't say a word to you about it.  I'll just think you're rude and arrogant, and pray for you to find the humility to subordinate your personal piety for the sake of others.

 

 

 

[Lil Red]

As a wise priest told me...do not disallow what Rome allows. if Rome allows the freedom of posture, then it is to be allowed. I'm frankly shocked your priest would say such a thing, and if I personally had overheard it as his parishioner, I'd be going straight to the bishop to have a discussion with him. 

[Lil Red]

Veiling is a whole separate issue...I'm sorry I brought it up. We could go another 50 pages on that alone. LOL. You can do a search for our veiling threads...all of which have great responses for and against veiling.