What You Don't Know Can Hurt You

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

wut

 

To pinch one from the back of the milk cartoon. EXACTLY!

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

"one piece of cake for you, don't hog the whole freakin thing homz." Perhaps that is what i would say to any homosexual that was over zealous. I get the impression that at times people whom have been discriminated against can go the other way and become almost dictators and try and discriminate back there dignity such people can become over zealous at reclaiming there assumed rightful position in society and squash anyone whom stands in there way, because they where squashed. Something like that anyway. But i understand it's very hurtful to be squashed and supposedly hurt people seem to hurt people i don't know that's just what i heard. I have never been totally discriminated against ever as far as i'm aware, though i have experienced drips and drabs here and there, but not what i would call being persecuted. 

[organwerke]

I think those stories are important, Organwerke. It happens a lot -- more, I think, than many realize.

 

Unfortunately I know it, and this is something that really devasts me. I lost two persons I was very fond of for suicide: the father of one of my best friends and a friend who attended with me the high school. It is something that gives me a sense of pain so deep...to the point that I can't count anymore the times I've dreamt during the night that my friend was still alive and then when I woke up with a deep regret I realized it couldn't be possible since I've visited myself her tomb at the cemetery many times. Having lived very hard moments of depressionin my past  this is a thing I am really not able to accept.

I don't personally know the circumstances that lead this guy to commit suicide (I knew him but was not very close, he was a friend of a friend) even if I don't think in these circumstances anyone could ever know the reasons and the details.

I know his father Always rejected his homosexuality and was very bad with him, arriving to the point to tell him he was dead for him.

But, at the same time, I find hard to believe this was enough to lead him to do what he did. I remember him being a person who didn't pay much attention on Others' opinions, as I for example remember him being very open going with his boyfriend in public. But I was told also his boyfriend left him because he realized he wasn't really gay but only was very fascinated and attracted by his character and personality. He did have a huge culture, was extremely good at acting in theatre, was a real clever man. But surely he had a dark hole inside himself that grew immensely to the point of despair. Unfortunately I think that the place where he lived didn't help him at all: a very little village, full of bigot persons (in the worst sense of the world), full of ignorance, prejudice and gossiping...I am sad to say this this but I personally hate this place.

Anyway this is what happened and I can't do anything else but trying with all my efforts to avoid, recognize and eventually prevent this happening to other people.

[franciscanheart]

Important question I don't believe has been asked: do you support the legalisation of gay marriage? I'm kind of in the middle on it. In one sense, I absolutely agree that homosexual unions are intrinsically immoral. But I also believe premarital sex and contraception are intrinsically immoral, too. Should those be against the law as well? The idea that gay marriage should be illegal but not premarital sex seems to stem from prejudice to me, but I don't know. I haven't heard an argument for why one should be illegal and not the other.

 

I have a hard time with this because I see the civil and spiritual / sacramental being two distinct things, separate from each other. I don't know why the courts would refuse to recognize the union of two people of the same sex the way the recognize it of opposite sex. They live and act in that relationship in the same way married heterosexual couples do, including kids. Right now they often have to involve lawyers very early in their relationship to ensure each partner will be allowed certain things in the event of something tragic happening -- including the end of someone's life by natural means.

 

It's a hot topic and I haven't fully formed my own views on it. Currently I do support equal civil rights among all people, regardless of sexual orientation. But I also believe sacramental marriage is different than civil marriage, and should stay separated. If I am wrong for that, I am sure I will know that in time.

[franciscanheart]

Fran, you are a brave daughter of God. :) Just wanted say that....

 

Thanks, brandelynmarie. :heart: That's a very kind thing to say. I appreciate it.

[CrossCuT]

I have a hard time with this because I see the civil and spiritual / sacramental being two distinct things, separate from each other. I don't know why the courts would refuse to recognize the union of two people of the same sex the way the recognize it of opposite sex. They live and act in that relationship in the same way married heterosexual couples do, including kids. Right now they often have to involve lawyers very early in their relationship to ensure each partner will be allowed certain things in the event of something tragic happening -- including the end of someone's life by natural means.

 

It's a hot topic and I haven't fully formed my own views on it. Currently I do support equal civil rights among all people, regardless of sexual orientation. But I also believe sacramental marriage is different than civil marriage, and should stay separated. If I am wrong for that, I am sure I will know that in time.

 

I feel very similarly.

[franciscanheart]

I just want to say props for being gay and still remaining Catholic and obeying the teachings...I used to hold the belief being gay was a choice and as a result never really had much sympathy for christians who were gay...Although now realizing it's not a choice I feel more compassion...If God created me to be attracted to males and not females and then I was told I would go to he'll if I fell in love I don't know what I would do...It might be peace out church...So anyhow keep being strong and a great example of a faithful Catholic...Prayers....

 

Thank you, Josh. Lord knows I've wanted to walk away many times. The Eucharist is my rock.

[franciscanheart]

I have a question about a subject that has come up a few times in the past and even right now there is a thread relating to it.

 

Should gay/lesbian people who have committed themselves to a chaste life in order to remain faithful to the church be allowed to be priests, nuns, or religious? Do you think the fact that you are gay would somehow make you less able to fulfill that role in the church?

 

I hope that made sense. Or if I worded it this way: Does being gay make a person unfit for these roles? Even if they are 100% faithful to the church, live a chaste life, etc etc.

 

I would very much appreciate your perspective on this subject! I know what my thoughts are but again, they are not popular.

 

When I was first coming to terms with being gay -- when I really started to be out to myself -- I was very torn. I was discerning religious life and stopped because of this. At one point, I decided to keep discerning, sure that if God wanted me in religious life that I would end up there. But it became very hard to have a fruitful discernment because all I could think of when I would sit to pray was the psychological exam. The questionnaires. The interviews. I was brought to tears thinking of the heartache of being told that I would not be able to be a sister because I have an attraction to women -- an attraction that, at the time, was not particularly overwhelming or distracting. It was awful.

 

I stopped discerning. I decided everything I had felt and seen was wrong, that I'd misinterpreted. I was devastated.

 

It took nearly six years to admit all of that in confession and hear for the first time that my homosexuality did not mean I was not called to religious life. That priest gave me great comfort and encouraged me to talk again to my spiritual director and to ask God for direction. He assured me that if God wanted me unto Himself and I was open to Him, it would be -- no matter what.

 

Do I think it should be something people gloss over and don't ask questions about? No. Because I also convinced myself at one point that every inclination I'd had toward the convent was to mask the inclinations I had toward romantic love for women. It was a real possibility. It took a lot of talking and praying and digging to find out if that was really my truth. So, no, I don't think it should ever be a definitive, at least as it concerns religious life.

 

As far as diocesan priesthood is concerned, I don't know, nor do I assume to know what's best. I've no experience and no real knowledge of that particular vocation, and so I cannot and will not speak on that. I'm sure someone here has more information than I do and would be a better response.

[franciscanheart]

AwE-sOme thinking Crosscut, i wonder, i get what your getting at, can a priest live with another man he loves more than anyone else and has to live with him or visa versa for a nun, but they do that anyway don't they in religious orders. But also 1 of the dictionary meanings of gay means homosexual and i may be wrong but doesn't homosexual have something to do with sexual intercourse with the same sex. Than what is the meaning of sexual intercourse? Get your dictionaries out, lets study some words.

 

Easy:

 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=definition+of+homosexual

 

Easier:

 

 

ho·mo·sex·u·al

ˌhōməˈsekSHo͞oəl/

adjective

 

1. (of a person) sexually attracted to people of one's own sex.

    

noun

 

1. a person who is sexually attracted to people of their own sex.

   synonyms: gay, lesbian; More

 

Edited February 27, 2014 by franciscanheart

[franciscanheart]

 
I think the "you can play straight. We can never play white." line in the rap is more about the inability for black people to blend in with the majority. I know a lot of gay people, and most of them don't act "gay"--whatever that even means. If a gay person walks into a store, they are not treated any differently--if a black person walks into a store, they are followed around to make sure they don't steal anything. I didn't interpret that line as meaning "hiding" at all. 

 

I also feel, similar to how comparing gay people with pedophiles is offensive, comparing the struggles gay people go through with that of black people is offensive. It's not even the same ballpark.

 

You're right: it's completely different. Which is why the rapper shouldn't compare apples to oranges and expect people to not say something. He's basically saying homosexual persons have no right complaining because he's black and they ... OH SHIT WAIT: THEY MIGHT BE BLACK TOO.

 

But you get what I mean.

 

Just because black people struggle in different ways than hispanic people or Catholics or gay people doesn't mean that they are the only ones who know suffering and the only ones who get to stand up and say, "This isn't right."

[franciscanheart]

There is a strange curious thing: I know more than one gay persons who are quite racist, who say things against immigration or immigrants and this is something that i find strange and disturbing because I wouldn't expect to hear these things form persons that are often themselves victims of discrimination.

But also I think that this fact shows that a sexual inclination is not so fundamental in determining the character and the ideas of a person.

 

I know a lot of black people who are racist, so.

[franciscanheart]

Anyway this is what happened and I can't do anything else but trying with all my efforts to avoid, recognize and eventually prevent this happening to other people.

 

I am so sorry. That is so tragic.

[franciscanheart]

You're right: it's completely different. Which is why the rapper shouldn't compare apples to oranges and expect people to not say something. He's basically saying homosexual persons have no right complaining because he's black and they ... OH poo WAIT: THEY MIGHT BE BLACK TOO.

 

But you get what I mean.

 

Just because black people struggle in different ways than hispanic people or Catholics or gay people doesn't mean that they are the only ones who know suffering and the only ones who get to stand up and say, "This isn't right."

 

Which reminds me: I'm a Hispanic, lesbian, Catholic woman. Do I need to count all the minority groups for you? ;)

[Aloysius]

to be fair, the song is a parody of Macklemore's same love where he makes the comparison between black civil rights struggles and fights over homosexual civil rights... but macklemore's comparison is just between those two struggles to be treated fairly and not discriminated against or hated.  the response where this rapper turns it into a "who is persecuted worse" contest I think was rather inappropriate and inaccurate.  As I mentioned, gay people can often experience hate and discrimination from the people closest to them, like their families, etc, and are often psychologically abused to the point of suicide... so while you might say black people have it worse for being easily recognizable, there are entirely different problems that can make gay people's struggles different, and in some ways worse even if they're not easily recognizable in public like skin color can be.  it's not a perfect analogy, in some ways the one group has it worse and in other ways the other group has it worse... both have definite problems that need to be addressed from a standpoint of civil rights and not allowing discrimination, which is the point of Macklemore's comparison... though of course he uses it to argue gay marriage as a civil right, so there is that, but there are other things gay people deal with for which the comparison to a civil rights issue are definitely apt.

[organwerke]

I know a lot of black people who are racist, so.

 

I know. I wasn't implying anything by the way, only that I find this disturbing, as I don't like racism, and so that with these particualr persons I can't feel much empathy, due to their racist ideas, when and if, for example, they talk about their problems in this society related to their condition.