Graces From Protestant Services?

[mortify ii]

I truly believe that our loving God does not allow these individuals suffer eternally.

 

You believe contrary to the teachings of our Lord who taught us the eternal aspect of the hereafter. We are in control of our destiny, we choose where we ill end up, and in fact we are living our end right now. The hereafter is merely our current state brought to perfection, if we die in union we enjoy it in the hereafter, if we are separated our separation continues into the next world. The love of God is manifested in the graces he offers us, we must act, and I must act, but in the end he respects our free choice.

[mortify ii]

Why do you have such a hard time believing that splinters of truth can exist outside of the Church? It doesn't take away from the fact that the Church holds the complete fullness, it simply means that by the natural law written on the hearts of man, they have stumbled across a sliver or two of the truth.

 

I have no issue with accepting that others are right about certain things, but being right about certain things is not salvific, and that is where we have a disagreement. A drop of poison in a glass of water is all it takes, and altering the faith by one doctrine is all it takes to separate oneself from the ark that is the Church, and outside of the Church there is no salvation. 

[CrossCuT]

You believe contrary to the teachings of our Lord who taught us the eternal aspect of the hereafter. We are in control of our destiny, we choose where we ill end up, and in fact we are living our end right now. The hereafter is merely our current state brought to perfection, if we die in union we enjoy it in the hereafter, if we are separated our separation continues into the next world. The love of God is manifested in the graces he offers us, we must act, and I must act, but in the end he respects our free choice.

 

Hey man, I TOTALLY get that. But Im not talking about people who learn about God and turn away. Im talking about the people who NEVER have a conscious understand of him or the church; people who NEVER learn about him through no fault of their own. If they die unaware, do you think they should suffer the loss of heaven?

[mortify ii]

Hey man, I TOTALLY get that. But Im not talking about people who learn about God and turn away. Im talking about the people who NEVER have a conscious understand of him or the church; people who NEVER learn about him through no fault of their own. If they die unaware, do you think they should suffer the loss of heaven?

 

As I said, those who are unaware of the need to be in the Church can not be guilty of being outside of her, but as I also said, just because one is ignorant does not mean they automatically go to heaven. In fact, it is much hard for such a person outside of grace and enlightenment to make it, but God can non the less work outside of the sacraments and enlighten those who are worthy. There are accounts of Spanish missionaries discovering native tribes already worshiping our Lord and knowing the basic tenants of the faith because they were taught by a saintly nun who bilocated before them. Make no mistake, God will provide the path to those who seek Him. 

[Fidei Defensor]

Pope Pius IX, Encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore, August 10, 1863:

 

And here, beloved Sons and Venerable Brothers, We should mention again and censure a very grave error in which some Catholics are unhappily engaged, who believe that men living in error, and separated from the true faith and from Catholic unity, can attain eternal life. Indeed, this is certainly quite contrary to Catholic teaching. It is known to Us and to you that they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life, since God who clearly beholds, searches, and knows the minds, souls, thoughts, and habits of all men, because of His great goodness and mercy, will by no means suffer anyone to be punished with eternal torment who has not the guilt of deliberate sin.

 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

Pope Pius XII, MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI

103. As you know, Venerable Brethren, from the very beginning of Our Pontificate, We have committed to the protection and guidance of heaven those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church, solemnly declaring that after the example of the Good Shepherd We desire nothing more ardently than that they may have life and have it more abundantly. Imploring the prayers of the whole Church We wish to repeat this solemn declaration in this Encyclical Letter in which We have proclaimed the praises of the "great and glorious Body of Christ" and from a heart overflowing with love We ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with Us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the Society of glorious love. Persevering in prayer to the Spirit of love and truth, We wait for them with open and outstretched arms to come not to a stranger's house, but to their own, their father's home.

 

 

[Fidei Defensor]

All we're trying to point out is that salvation is not necessarily deprived to someone with an ignorance of the faith through no fault of their own, which can include other denominations which may never realize the error of their ways.

Edited May 4, 2014 by tardis ad astra

[mortify ii]

All we're trying to point out is that salvation is not necessarily deprived of someone with an ignorance of the faith through no fault of their own, which can include other denominations which may never realize the error of their ways.

 

Let me say explicitly that I am not a Feeneyite. As I said several times already a person who is ignorant of the Church can not be guilty of the sin of separation, but once again, just because one is not guilty of separation does not mean they can't be guilty for something else. It is absolutely necessary to be a part of the Church and receive the graces and enlightenment that God offers. Those who seek God and strive for him will undoubtedly be rewarded. 

[mortify ii]

All we're trying to point out is that salvation is not necessarily deprived to someone with an ignorance of the faith through no fault of their own, which can include other denominations which may never realize the error of their ways.

 

You changed your statement a bit to include other denominations. Let me just add that we are all responsible for our salvation. Once a person reaches the age of reason they take ownership of what they believe, and that includes any heresy they may have been taught. As St Augustine said, one may have everything outside of the Church, and that includes the Bible, liturgy, sacraments, and prayer, but the one thing you can't have is salvation. 

[Fidei Defensor]

You changed your statement a bit to include other denominations. Let me just add that we are all responsible for our salvation. Once a person reaches the age of reason they take ownership of what they believe, and that includes any heresy they may have been taught. As St Augustine said, one may have everything outside of the Church, and that includes the Bible, liturgy, sacraments, and prayer, but the one thing you can't have is salvation. 

And I'm saying that we can't judge a person's heart and know that they are fully culpable for their ignorance.  God can. And does.

 

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus, but remember that God is merciful and understanding.

[mortify ii]

And I'm saying that we can't judge a person's heart and know that they are fully culpable for their ignorance.  God can. And does.

 

Extra ecclesiam nulla salus, but remember that God is merciful and understanding.

 

We can't judge subjectively, only objectively. 

[Fidei Defensor]

We can't judge subjectively, only objectively. 

God can judge objectively. I'm pretty sure we were warned not to judge lest we be judged ourselves.

[mortify ii]

God can judge objectively. I'm pretty sure we were warned not to judge lest we be judged ourselves.

 

We can judge objectively

[Fidei Defensor]

We can judge objectively

Well you've been granted a gift that I certainly don't have. Please, I'm curious, could you objectively judge my heart for me? I'm curious about my salvation.

[mortify ii]

Well you've been granted a gift that I certainly don't have. Please, I'm curious, could you objectively judge my heart for me? I'm curious about my salvation.

 

Judging your heart is outside the realm of objectivity, we can only judge actions

[Fidei Defensor]

Judging your heart is outside the realm of objectivity, we can only judge actions

That's sort of my point. God can judge one's heart objectively.

[mortify ii]

That's sort of my point. God can judge one's heart objectively.

 

I think your misunderstanding here. It's objectively a mortal sin to miss mass on Sunday, but if a person got there days mixed up and thought it was still Saturday, they are not guilty. We can not judge the state of a person's soul, and that includes our own, we can only judge actions.

[Fidei Defensor]

I think your misunderstanding here. It's objectively a mortal sin to miss mass on Sunday, but if a person got there days mixed up and thought it was still Saturday, they are not guilty. We can not judge the state of a person's soul, and that includes our own, we can only judge actions.

Regardless of my misunderstanding, what do you make of the two quotes I provided, statements that have always been believed?

[mortify ii]

Regardless of my misunderstanding, what do you make of the two quotes I provided, statements that have always been believed?

 

I think I've said this numerous times, you can't be guilty of something you are ignorant of, but ignorance is not salvific. It is a very common error to think being ignorant either automatically gets you into heaven or is somehow an easier path to heaven. Without grace, enlightenment, and the sacraments preserving our state of sanctifying grace is extremely difficult and I dare say virtually impossible, but God knows best. There was a native American, sadly I can't remember his name, but he embraced the truth faith and recounted his story to a priest. This saintly fellow said he had never committed a sin in his life and always strived to do good, such a man was granted the faith but if hypothetically he were not and died in such a state, could God have remitted original sin and provided him sanctifying grace? Of course. 

[Fidei Defensor]

I think I've said this numerous times, you can't be guilty of something you are ignorant of, but ignorance is not salvific. It is a very common error to think being ignorant either automatically gets you into heaven or is somehow an easier path to heaven. Without grace, enlightenment, and the sacraments preserving our state of sanctifying grace is extremely difficult and I dare say virtually impossible, but God knows best. There was a native American, sadly I can't remember his name, but he embraced the truth faith and recounted his story to a priest. This saintly fellow said he had never committed a sin in his life and always strived to do good, such a man was granted the faith but if hypothetically he were not and died in such a state, could God have remitted original sin and provided him sanctifying grace? Of course. 

Then we are in agreement.