Graces From Protestant Services?

[Guest]

It's not fair guys like me who break all the rules get to live forever in Heaven....But you know what pal you have to deal with it....God has been showing me unmerited favor for a long time now.....So you keep hating on our new Saints and keep trying to convince everybody that the Church is doomed....And I'll keep beating my chest and asking God to forgive me cause I'm just a huge sinner that is lost without Him.....And I'll continue to hope He forgives everyone else as much as He's forgiven me and you can keep hoping He gives everybody what they really deserve.....And to be honest both things are legit things to hope for.....It's just when you're as big of a sinner as I am and you've been forgiven and continue to be forgiven you hope for that same mercy for other people as well.....Or at least I do..

Edited May 4, 2014 by Guest

[mortify ii]

It's not fair guys like me who break all the rules get to live forever in Heaven....But you know what pal you have to deal with it....God has been showing me unmerited favor for a long time now.....So you keep hating on our new Saints and keep trying to convince everybody that the Church is doomed....And I'll keep beating my chest and asking God to forgive me cause I'm just a huge sinner that is lost without Him.....And I'll continue to hope He forgives everyone else as much as He's forgiven me and you can keep hoping He gives everybody what they really deserve.....And to be honest both things are legit things to hope for.....It's just when you're as big of a sinner as I am and you've been forgiven and continue to be forgiven you hope for that same mercy for other people as well.....Or at least I do..

 

You and I are more in agreement thank you think

[HisChildForever]

Yo, members of the Church of the New Advent, listen up!

 

“No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.”

(St Augustine. Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem )

 

This doesn't exactly jive with Romans 10:9...

 

Anyway, you can play this saint card, but you discard John Paul II's perspective, which clearly clashes with Augustine's. Cherry picking saints or something? Being a saint doesn't mean that one is perfect, or exactly right all of the time.

[HisChildForever]

Anyway, I'll have to tell my (gasp) Protestant (gasp) fiance not to hold my hand too tight lest he drag me down to Hell with him. :)

[Guest]

And sorry for being a prick....It's 90 degrees in my apartment and my air conditioning isn't working.....But really could you lighten up a little bit ? You make it seem as if the really in tune with the times Catholic should run for a sspx chapel and not look back.....Mabey I'm wrong and deceived by satan himself but God is love....He wants people in Heaven....He isn't looking to send people to hell who lived a life full of love and did the best they could.....He doesn't want aborted babies in hell or limbo cause they never got Baptized. ...He's not waiting to scream at a loving Mormon who dies and is before Him "You're going to hell because you didn't become Catholic !!! " Honestly if God was still portrayed like alot of the early Church portrayed Him then I agree everybody would be going to hell....I refuse though to live like God is mad at everyone and always waiting for the next slip up so He can throw it in our faces and use it to send us to hell...I undetstand how real sin is and I fear God with my entire heart ( though my actions dont show it alot of times) But I also know God as a friend and someone who forgives over and over again....And if He does this for a piece of crap like me I'm confident He will do it for others as well...

Edited May 4, 2014 by Guest

[Guest]

And yea I don't know about that Saint Augustine quote....That goes against the Bible pretty hard...Wow...

[HisChildForever]

You changed your statement a bit to include other denominations. Let me just add that we are all responsible for our salvation. Once a person reaches the age of reason they take ownership of what they believe, and that includes any heresy they may have been taught. As St Augustine said, one may have everything outside of the Church, and that includes the Bible, liturgy, sacraments, and prayer, but the one thing you can't have is salvation. 

 

Some people like myself are made, then--I was born and raised Catholic. It was basically handed to me on a silver platter. What made me so lucky, what did I do that made it a LITTLE easier to ensure my salvation? Why did God create ME in this way? I mean, are we suggesting that God makes it harder for some (a Buddhist in China), tricky for others (Anglican), and easy for some (Catholic) to find the path of salvation? And then isn't He setting up like the Buddhists for failure then? Anyway, most people born and raised a particular faith (or non-faith) tend to stay there, no? Someone from the Middle East COMPLETELY convinced of Islam could try to preach to me all they want but I'm not changing. Just an example.

[Maggyie]

Mortify I just have to address your belief that the church is in the worst crisis she's ever been through.

Not even close. I would say the apostles running away from Jesus after Gethsemane, the Protestant Reformation and the Avignon captivity all were greater crises. It's common for people to believe their times are the worst ever but it's certainly not true.

I'd say if we ever have multiple antipopes all of whom purchased their office and who openly keep mistresses while the world is ravaged by religious wars and corruption, and at the same time the faithful are routinely burnt and beheaded for their fidelity to sound doctrine - that would potentially be the worst crisis. And yet even that doesn't compare to Peter denying Christ 3 times in terms of a crisis. Right? And we got through that without becoming hysterical.

[John Ryan]

As for the quote from Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI, I do not see how it relates to a "reasonable hope that all men are saved" type of theology.   There is a difference between hoping now one goes to Hell, and holding the hope that no one is in Hell.  

 

I was not equating the two. 

 

To say hell exists but is empty renders it superfluous and God did not create anything unnecessary.

 

I am kind of a Platonist, so I tend to think of Hell as non-being, not a created being-ness.

[AugustineA]

Man, the internet is one crazy place..  There is one absolute we can be certain of amidst all this debate. It's that no one has ever been convinced otherwise over the internet. 

 

Even if some theologions and Saints proposed that hell was almost empty, whenever I hear it I can't help but sigh and smile. Like really? Ah well.. Who cares. Every time someone in the Bible asked who was sinning and why they died, and where are they going, Jesus told them to shut up, worry about themselves, and spread the Word. 

 

 

 

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

 

Am I the only one who reads a Vatican II statement and has to ask themselves what they just read? The English translation speaks of engendering a "life of grace" and giving access to the "community of salvation." The Latin reads, "Vitam gratiae reapse generare possunt atque aptae dicendae sunt quae ingressum in salutis communionem pandant." or as the glorious google translate has it, "The life of grace are the things that are able to generate entry into salvation." So salvific grace exists in non-Catholic services?

 

The recently canonized John Paul II has something very similar to say:

 

 

So yes, apparently these separated communities and "churches" are conduits of salvation, and furthermore, we ought to learn and esteem these separated paths that we may join hands to a fuller unity an fuller knowledge of the truth! 

 

Ok, let's get smacked with some Catholic teaching:

 

 

So who is right? I'll stick with what was always believed.

 

http://catholicism.org/eens-fathers.html

 

 

 

neither are speaking infallibly. Think about it! Which pope is mistaken, or perhaps both are and where meant to be "NO COMMENT." Are both recognised saints? I will lean more towards the recognised saints side, and if both are recognised saints than " NO COMMENT." Till proven without a doubt otherwise.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

neither are speaking infallibly. Think about it! Which pope is mistaken, or perhaps both are and WE'RE meant to be "NO COMMENT." Are both recognised saints? I will lean more towards the recognised saints side, and if both are recognised saints than " NO COMMENT." Till proven without a doubt otherwise.

 

 

Sorry typo.

[mortify ii]

Peace be with you,

 

This doesn't exactly jive with Romans 10:9...

 

No, it doesn't jive with your *personal* interpretation of Romans. 

 

"To confess the Lord Jesus, and to call upon the name of the Lord, is not barely the professing of a belief in the person of Christ: but moreover implies a belief of his whole doctrine, and an obedience to his law; without which the calling of him Lord will save no man. (St. Matthew vii. 21.)"

 

Anyway, you can play this saint card, but you discard John Paul II's perspective, which clearly clashes with Augustine's. Cherry picking saints or something? Being a saint doesn't mean that one is perfect, or exactly right all of the time.

 

Some of the things John Paul II said and wrote clashed with Catholicism, period.

 

Anyway, I'll have to tell my (gasp) Protestant (gasp) fiance not to hold my hand too tight lest he drag me down to Hell with him. :)

 

I'm glad you found a nice Protestant man who is supporting you in your faith and will support you in raising your children Catholic.

 

Some people like myself are made, then--I was born and raised Catholic. It was basically handed to me on a silver platter. What made me so lucky, what did I do that made it a LITTLE easier to ensure my salvation? Why did God create ME in this way? I mean, are we suggesting that God makes it harder for some (a Buddhist in China), tricky for others (Anglican), and easy for some (Catholic) to find the path of salvation? And then isn't He setting up like the Buddhists for failure then? Anyway, most people born and raised a particular faith (or non-faith) tend to stay there, no? Someone from the Middle East COMPLETELY convinced of Islam could try to preach to me all they want but I'm not changing. Just an example.

 

God provides the grace necessary for every soul in the world to make it to heaven, and that includes the Buddhist monk up in his Tibetan monastery never knowing anything about Catholicism. But we have to keep in mind that we bear not right to eternal union with God, and that it is entirely a free gift of His. Why he predestined some and not others is not known, but we have to remember that none of us know which state we are in. You may have been born into a Catholic family but by your actions will end up in hell, and the Buddhist monk may despite his religion receiving the grace of baptism without every being baptized because he responded to God's grace. The path is difficulty no matter where we are but being enlightened by truth and having available grace makes it very possible, and also very possible to advance spiritually.

 

Mortify I just have to address your belief that the church is in the worst crisis she's ever been through.

Not even close. I would say the apostles running away from Jesus after Gethsemane, the Protestant Reformation and the Avignon captivity all were greater crises. It's common for people to believe their times are the worst ever but it's certainly not true.

I'd say if we ever have multiple antipopes all of whom purchased their office and who openly keep mistresses while the world is ravaged by religious wars and corruption, and at the same time the faithful are routinely burnt and beheaded for their fidelity to sound doctrine - that would potentially be the worst crisis. And yet even that doesn't compare to Peter denying Christ 3 times in terms of a crisis. Right? And we got through that without becoming hysterical.

 

Maggie,

 

Where do I begin...

 

Our liturgy has been destroyed. The majority of Catholics don't believe in the real presence (i.e. are at least material heretics). Most don't observe the Church's moral teachings. And so far our hierarchs are doing nothing about it so there is no foreseeable restoration in the near future.

 

Oh... and some believe the teaching authority of our Church has explicitly taught heresy, something which has NEVER happened before.

 

So yea, this is NOTHING like what we've faced before.

 

I'll stop now before I go on a rant :)

[Selah]

*sigh* Well at least it's not a thread about Muslims, so. 

[John Ryan]

Where do I begin...

 

Our liturgy has been destroyed. The majority of Catholics don't believe in the real presence (i.e. are at least material heretics). Most don't observe the Church's moral teachings. And so far our hierarchs are doing nothing about it so there is no foreseeable restoration in the near future.

 

Oh... and some believe the teaching authority of our Church has explicitly taught heresy, something which has NEVER happened before.

 

So yea, this is NOTHING like what we've faced before.

 

I'll stop now before I go on a rant :)

 

It all goes back to Pope Pius IX's warning. If we only listened to him, maintained the monarchic form of Government and damned that hellish form of Government known as democracy, then we would not have terrible things like freedom of religion.