Calling Oneself Catholic While Rejecting Church Teaching

[mortify ii]

I am still looking for an resources that expressively dictates that Catholics should be running around declaring who is more of a Catholic than another in such a harsh and wrong manner,  quote scripture and church what ever ya like, but to be a giant hypocrite and labeling oneself as some kind of official super catholic and there by is qualified to go and rattle off links, scriptures, dogma, etc as if it is some check list an then shove it in someone elses face, is not going to do anyone any favor nor is it going to have groves of people changing their ways.

 

Listen, no one here is claiming to be a super Catholic. I'm a terrible Catholic! I sin, I'm weak, I fall all the time... but what I don't do is make EXCUSES. I don't say, "Nah, the Church is wrong on that", I say, "I failed and I'm getting my butt to confession!" That's the difference. Weakness is one thing, heresy is another. If you say, "The Church teaches contraception is wrong but the Church is misguided and I feel it's ok," then you're a heretic and not a Catholic. If you say, "The Church teaches contraception is wrong but I used it last night and need to go to confession", then you're an orthodox Catholic whose fallen. So stop confusing the two. There is nothing wrong in defending the doctrines of our holy religion against people who attack it and seek to undermine it from within. If you don't believe, then move along, find a religion that is more consistent with your lifestyle. But if you choose to remain and call yourself Catholic, then strive to live like one!

[Perigrina]

How long has it been, like a week? ;)

 

Even with a smiley on it, that is really out of line.  You are "joking" about a person committing mortal sin.  

[Perigrina]

 
Unfortunately, you are taking things way too personally here, even when I try to lighten things up with a joke or two. And obviously my own posts seemed to offend something in you (push your buttons as you put it) so it might be a perfectly good idea for your own peace of mind if you just blocked all my posts, then you wouldn't have to read them.

 

Of course I take it personally when you quote my profile and direct your words to me.  These are your exact words:

 

Your profile says that you try to keep from losing your temper and that you are striving for "orthodoxy, charity and humility" in your posts, and you ask us to let you know when you are messing up. So I haven't been trying to be inflammatory or offensive, but perhaps to suggest that there are ways --- and then there are other ways --- to express the same thing (or something similar) perhaps without causing quite as much pain.

 

I cannot see that as saying anything other than you think that I have been causing pain and ought to change the way I post.  This does not offend me at all.  I asked for correction in my profile and I meant it.  But it needs to be more specific for it to be of any use.  I am puzzled as to why you think your posts offend or disturb me.   I like your posts and it would never have crossed my mind to block them.

 

 

 

As for 'pushing buttons' in the 'trad' (your word) crowd, well, blow me down! I have been a rad-trad myself (was member of an EF parish even!) and it didn't push my buttons to be called legalistic or more Catholic than the Pope because I made every effort not to be those things. It is an easy pit to fall into, to want everyone to think the same way, do everything the same way, etc. (humans like the sense of belonging) and there is an honest danger that some people can get so caught up in the whole letter of the law that they forget the spirit of the law. I just love that passage when the Pharisees are mad at Jesus for letting his disciples glean corn on the Sabbath. He told them that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. He wasn't saying don't obey the rules, just don't get hung up on them to the exclusion of what's really important. 

 
That's why I might use a phrase like 'More Catholic than the Pope" or 'legalistic' when it seems that things get focused on the minutiae like receiving on the hand, veiling, EHMCs, or even just judging whether a person should refer to themselves as Catholic if they don't agree with everything the Church says. I know these are perfectly valid debate topics, and there's no reason why we can't all have a little fun considering these things, but when it starts to get judgmental, and people run away because they feel condemned, that's when it seems a little out of line. But I don't recall calling YOU more Catholic than the Pope or saying that YOU are legalistic. If anyone can complain to me, it's probably Credo (or Tardis - did I call him a name too, I don't remember). 

 

Ah, that's the explanation.  You used to be a trad and these things did not offend you then, so you did not realize the potential these things have for causing offense to others.  I knew, once I really thought about it, that you were not being deliberately offensive.  It's a good thing I told you, so you will know to avoid them now.  I completely agree that you did not address any offensive terms to me personally.  But you seem to feel so strongly about the importance of speaking kindly (which I totally support) that I thought you would want to know that your words were likely to be offensive to others.

 

I do not think that "minutiae" is the right word to describe any of the issues that you have listed in this category.  Receiving on the hand, etc. are areas of legitimate disagreement in which both sides are obeying Church teaching.  These are not at all like a discussion of how essential it is to our faith that we accept the teaching authority of the Church - to the point that is questionable if a person who does not do so is even Catholic.  I suppose I can see calling the legitimate disagreement questions minutiae, but not a central issue like Church authority.

[mortify ii]

Even with a smiley on it, that is really out of line.  You are "joking" about a person committing mortal sin.  

 

It's dude humor, so don't be so uptight. In all reality JohnRyan is probably a much holier soul than me, we just have to adjust some of his misunderstandings  :elvis:

[Credo in Deum]

I am still looking for an resources that expressively dictates that Catholics should be running around declaring who is more of a Catholic than another in such a harsh and wrong manner,  quote scripture and church what ever ya like, but to be a giant hypocrite and labeling oneself as some kind of official super catholic and there by is qualified to go and rattle off links, scriptures, dogma, etc as if it is some check list an then shove it in someone elses face, is not going to do anyone any favor nor is it going to have groves of people changing their ways.

 

I am seeing how this is really nothing but one big game of grabby grabby an lets see who wears out first of being self righteous enlightened perfect " Catholic ".

 

Because that is what is really going on aint it, going to sleep at night knowing that one has as all these doctrines and tenants dogmas, etc at their finger tips along with the Catechism that backs up everything they say so that must mean he or she is really the better Catholic, lol because that is really what it is all about, lol nothing to do with what the priest tries to teach us during the homily, nothing about living a life in the imitation an likeness of Christ, it is just who knows all these rules and follows them perfectly, and lets forget about those who are not even Catholic because they are already going to hell, poor souls, all the millions of Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Atheists , and the offshoots of the Catholic Church that are no longer follow the Pope, or any of these things being discussed, oh how doesthest they walk this earth awaiting eternal damnation unbeknownst to them and yay the enlightened ones you elites of the Catholic faith who have all this information at your finger tips can sleep easy knowing that you are walking in perfection  and trying your best with playing grabby grab online to say yes lord I dideth good I showed them I know everything and I tried to force them to believe me. I judgedeth them with the perfect resources at my finger tips I did good ! 

 

Gold Stars to all you enlightened ones, an keep up the good work at educating us poor poor souls who only hope to one day be as perfect as ye.

 

:notworthy:

 

 

and as for joining any Clique, id rather eat a bag of rusty nails than conform to any online Clique, let alone a real life one.

 

:o)  :harhar:  :proud:  :dance:  :tv:  :bananahi:

 

 

Listen, no one here is claiming to be a super Catholic. I'm a terrible Catholic! I sin, I'm weak, I fall all the time... but what I don't do is make EXCUSES. I don't say, "Nah, the Church is wrong on that", I say, "I failed and I'm getting my butt to confession!" That's the difference. Weakness is one thing, heresy is another. If you say, "The Church teaches contraception is wrong but the Church is misguided and I feel it's ok," then you're a heretic and not a Catholic. If you say, "The Church teaches contraception is wrong but I used it last night and need to go to confession", then you're an orthodox Catholic whose fallen. So stop confusing the two. There is nothing wrong in defending the doctrines of our holy religion against people who attack it and seek to undermine it from within. If you don't believe, then move along, find a religion that is more consistent with your lifestyle. But if you choose to remain and call yourself Catholic, then strive to live like one!

 

Well said. 

 

 

Oh, and Superblue...

 

CCC

 

2447 The works of mercy are charitable actions by which we come to the aid of our neighbor in his spiritual and bodily necessities.²⁴² Instructing, advising, consoling, comforting are spiritual works of mercy, as are forgiving and bearing wrongs patiently. The corporal works of mercy consist especially in feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and imprisoned, and burying the dead.²⁴³ Among all these, giving alms to the poor is one of the chief witnesses to fraternal charity: it is also a work of justice pleasing to God:²⁴⁴

 

;)

 

And as a refresher for all of us....

 

2089 Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."

[AccountDeleted]

Of course I take it personally when you quote my profile and direct your words to me. These are your exact words:
 

Your profile says that you try to keep from losing your temper and that you are striving for "orthodoxy, charity and humility" in your posts, and you ask us to let you know when you are messing up. So I haven't been trying to be inflammatory or offensive, but perhaps to suggest that there are ways --- and then there are other ways --- to express the same thing (or something similar) perhaps without causing quite as much pain.

I cannot see that as saying anything other than you think that I have been causing pain and ought to change the way I post. This does not offend me at all. I asked for correction in my profile and I meant it. But it needs to be more specific for it to be of any use.

...

 

Peregrina

 

Learning how to communicate online with those who disagree with us can be a challenge, and requires a great deal of patience from all parties if they want to stay charitable and civil. So even though part of me tells me that I don’t have time to go over all this again and again, and I should just opt out of this thread, I am going to try to go beyond my own limitations to work at establishing some kind of rapport with you, even though I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on so many things. I can learn a lot just be trying to be patient with both of us.
 
I think you have misunderstood that what I meant by ‘don't take it personally’. What I was saying was not to assume that every comment I make is somehow meant to be directed towards you as some kind of insult. Of course it was personal when I quoted your profile, but I viewed it to get some kind of idea of just how to communicate with you and I thought I was responding to something you had written about wishing to be helped by others to deal with your tendency towards anger, which sometimes comes across in your posts. It wasn't meant as an insult, but an acknowledgement of what you had written in your profile.

 

I was trying to suggest in this thread that the intention on phatmass is not to drive people away but to help them understand more by being made to feel welcome (despite their own hostility). I made general comments to this effect about the tone of some posts, yours included, but there is no way I have the time to go back analyze each one of your posts now and offer suggestions on how to improve your communication skills, nor is it within my authority on this forum to do so. I made a general comment that outlined some of my thoughts, but how you respond to my comments is entirely up to you. Perhaps you could go back and read your posts and see if there is anything that could be improved for next time. In fact, I think one of your own posts even mentioned something to that effect about not beating yourself up this time but trying to do better in the future. I could have misunderstood what you meant however so please don’t take offence if I have.
 

I am puzzled as to why you think your posts offend or disturb me. I like your posts and it would never have crossed my mind to block them.

...

Ah, that's the explanation. You used to be a trad and these things did not offend you then, so you did not realize the potential these things have for causing offense to others. I knew, once I really thought about it, that you were not being deliberately offensive. It's a good thing I told you, so you will know to avoid them now. I completely agree that you did not address any offensive terms to me personally. But you seem to feel so strongly about the importance of speaking kindly (which I totally support) that I thought you would want to know that your words were likely to be offensive to others.

 

You are puzzled? I am very puzzled because you say you like my posts and you say you wouldn't consider blocking me then tell me that my posts are offensive – although so far you are the only trad get so upset over my statements about being more Catholic than the Pope or legalistic. Sure, the guys put in their responses and made jokes too, but none of them seemed to get hurt or feel pain – this is the Debate Table, after all, and since neither of these statements was personally directed at you, maybe we can say ‘no harm, no foul’?

 

I think it was Credo, who said "Sometimes the truth hurts." but since I spent several posts explaining to him that we had to make the pain as small as possible, then it would be rather hypocritical of me to now just say ‘like it or lump it.’ So please advise me, if possible, on ways to state these truths to you (at least they seem like truths to me -- that some trads act more Catholic than the Pope and/or are legalistic in their perspective)? Let's face it though, disagreements are likely to cause dissent as well. But I would be happy to try to state these truths (truths to me) in a more palatable way. So, see, we can help each other be 'softer' with our words! :)

 

I do not think that "minutiae" is the right word to describe any of the issues that you have listed in this category. Receiving on the hand, etc. are areas of legitimate disagreement in which both sides are obeying Church teaching. These are not at all like a discussion of how essential it is to our faith that we accept the teaching authority of the Church - to the point that is questionable if a person who does not do so is even Catholic. I suppose I can see calling the legitimate disagreement questions minutiae, but not a central issue like Church authority.

 

Well, here we have to agree to disagree because I think that minutiae is exactly the right word to use for issues that shouldn't even be up for debate since the Church has categorically stated that certain things are allowed, even if some people think they shouldn't be. Accepting Church teaching means also accepting things like Communion in the hand (for those who want it), EMHCs and not veiling -- without trying to turn it into a competition for who is the most reverent. I don't recall saying that the tenets of the Catholic faith or her dogma was minutiae. Perhaps you misread me? Or simply misunderstood the way I presented it?

I often think that the real problem we all face is that we take things way too seriously. A good sense of humor can help us get over rough ground lightly. And as St Teresa said, "May God protect me from gloomy saints," and even more important, as our beloved Lord told us, He came that "My joy may be in you, and that your joy be complete" (Jn 15:11).

Credo said it recently when you took offense at something he posted to JR. “It's dude humor, so don't be so uptight.” He said it, not me, so don’t get mad at me. But I do believe that it wouldn't hurt to â€˜lighten up’ a little.


Humor is the instinct for taking pain playfully.
- Max Eastman

[Perigrina]

It's dude humor, so don't be so uptight. In all reality JohnRyan is probably a much holier soul than me, we just have to adjust some of his misunderstandings  :elvis:

 

 

Even among dudes there is danger of humour being misunderstood under some circumstances.  Humour can be a way to make passive-aggressive attacks and even a well-meant joke is in danger of being misinterpreted this way when used during a disagreement.  

[AccountDeleted]

Even among dudes there is danger of humour being misunderstood under some circumstances.  Humour can be a way to make passive-aggressive attacks and even a well-meant joke is in danger of being misinterpreted this way when used during a disagreement.  

 

 

You know, since the comment was directed at JR, this might be one of those times when you could just  'let it go' and let him fight his own battles if he feels so inclined.

 

There is a psychological syndrome called 'Let's you and him fight.' in which one person eggs on another person to fight a third person. It's not always necessary to get involved in things that aren't really personal to us. Just a suggestion. No offence intended.

 

The Debate Table is an interesting place, n'est ce pas?

[CrossCuT]

You know, since the comment was directed at JR, this might be one of those times when you could just  'let it go' and let him fight his own battles if he feels so inclined.

 

There is a psychological syndrome called 'Let's you and him fight.' in which one person eggs on another person to fight a third person. It's not always necessary to get involved in things that aren't really personal to us. Just a suggestion. No offence intended.

 

The Debate Table is an interesting place, n'est ce pas?

 

You are a beautiful human being Nunsense.

[Perigrina]

Peregrina

 

Learning how to communicate online with those who disagree with us can be a challenge, and requires a great deal of patience from all parties if they want to stay charitable and civil. So even though part of me tells me that I don’t have time to go over all this again and again, and I should just opt out of this thread, I am going to try to go beyond my own limitations to work at establishing some kind of rapport with you, even though I doubt we will ever see eye to eye on so many things. I can learn a lot just be trying to be patient with both of us.
 
I think you have misunderstood that what I meant by ‘don't take it personally’. What I was saying was not to assume that every comment I make is somehow meant to be directed towards you as some kind of insult. Of course it was personal when I quoted your profile, but I viewed it to get some kind of idea of just how to communicate with you and I thought I was responding to something you had written about wishing to be helped by others to deal with your tendency towards anger, which sometimes comes across in your posts. It wasn't meant as an insult, but an acknowledgement of what you had written in your profile.

 

 

Yes, I agree that we seem to have an unusual amount of difficulty communicating and that it could be worthwhile to work through it.  

 

I have no idea how you got the idea that I think that every comment you make is directed at me as some kind of insult.  I do not think that, so, of course, it never occurred to me that "don't take things personally" was telling me to stop thinking it. The only thing I took personally in your post was your comment on my profile, so that is what I thought you meant, except that did not make any sense, since it obviously was personal.

 

Let me explicitly state that I do not think that you have ever insulted me.

 

 

I was trying to suggest in this thread that the intention on phatmass is not to drive people away but to help them understand more by being made to feel welcome (despite their own hostility). I made general comments to this effect about the tone of some posts, yours included, but there is no way I have the time to go back analyze each one of your posts now and offer suggestions on how to improve your communication skills, nor is it within my authority on this forum to do so. I made a general comment that outlined some of my thoughts, but how you respond to my comments is entirely up to you. Perhaps you could go back and read your posts and see if there is anything that could be improved for next time. In fact, I think one of your own posts even mentioned something to that effect about not beating yourself up this time but trying to do better in the future. I could have misunderstood what you meant however so please don’t take offence if I have.

 

I have been making a great effort to be kind and charitable in my posts and had thought that I was succeeding.  A general comment that I need to improve my tone gives me nothing to work with.  I suppose I can try rereading my posts, but I do not expect that to be very fruitful. I read them knowing my intent, so it is hard for me to see how others might misunderstand them.

 

You are puzzled? I am very puzzled because you say you like my posts and you say you wouldn't consider blocking me then tell me that my posts are offensive – although so far you are the only trad get so upset over my statements about being more Catholic than the Pope or legalistic. Sure, the guys put in their responses and made jokes too, but none of them seemed to get hurt or feel pain – this is the Debate Table, after all, and since neither of these statements was personally directed at you, maybe we can say ‘no harm, no foul’?

 

I think it was Credo, who said "Sometimes the truth hurts." but since I spent several posts explaining to him that we had to make the pain as small as possible, then it would be rather hypocritical of me to now just say ‘like it or lump it.’ So please advise me, if possible, on ways to state these truths to you (at least they seem like truths to me -- that some trads act more Catholic than the Pope and/or are legalistic in their perspective)? Let's face it though, disagreements are likely to cause dissent as well. But I would be happy to try to state these truths (truths to me) in a more palatable way. So, see, we can help each other be 'softer' with our words!  :)

 

I did not tell you that your posts are offensive.  I pointed out some specific words and phrases that had the potential to be offensive.  I am not especially upset or hurt but I have seen enough reactions to these things to know they are likely hot-buttons. And I did receive a personal message about this, so there are reactions that are not publicly posted.  I was giving you specific advice on how to make your writing more kind and charitable (the very thing that I was asking you to do for me), not telling you that your posts are offensive.

 

Since I do not think that anyone was being more Catholic than the Pope or being legalistic, it is hard for me to see this a truth that needs to be rephrased.  I am going to have to think about this longer before I can answer you. 

 

 

 

 

Well, here we have to agree to disagree because I think that minutiae is exactly the right word to use for issues that shouldn't even be up for debate since the Church has categorically stated that certain things are allowed, even if some people think they shouldn't be. Accepting Church teaching means also accepting things like Communion in the hand (for those who want it), EMHCs and not veiling -- without trying to turn it into a competition for who is the most reverent. I don't recall saying that the tenets of the Catholic faith or her dogma was minutiae. Perhaps you misread me? Or simply misunderstood the way I presented it?

 

I doubt that many, if any, people who discuss those topics are in a competition for who is most reverent.  Statements that attribute bad motives to others tend to cause bad feeling.  (I am not offended, just giving general advice that I think may be useful to you and others.) Anyhow, I would not use the word "minutiae" to describe this class of issues, but I can understand how others might. My main disagreement was with including this thread as that sort of issue (which is what I thought you said).  The Church has not categorically stated that it is allowed for people to reject Church teachings and still call themselves Catholic.  If anything, the relevant Church statements indicate the opposite.  

 

 

 

 

I often think that the real problem we all face is that we take things way too seriously. A good sense of humor can help us get over rough ground lightly. And as St Teresa said, "May God protect me from gloomy saints," and even more important, as our beloved Lord told us, He came that "My joy may be in you, and that your joy be complete" (Jn 15:11). 

Credo said it recently when you took offense at something he posted to JR. “It's dude humor, so don't be so uptight.” He said it, not me, so don’t get mad at me. But I do believe that it wouldn't hurt to â€˜lighten up’ a little.


Humor is the instinct for taking pain playfully.
- Max Eastman

 

It was not Credo, but Mortify, who made the comment.  I was not convinced.

 

I do write plenty of light and humourous posts.  But there are certain issues that I do not joke about.  (And for some reason the joke posts get way more props than the serious ones.  What's up with that?)

[AccountDeleted]

You are a beautiful human being Nunsense.

 

 

Doesn't something like this belong in the Peace and Love Thread over in Open Mic? I mean, what's there to debate about in a statement like this one? :lol4:

 

CrossCut, you are a beautiful human being too. Thank you so much for bringing a little love into the Debate Table.   :love:

 

And doesn't it just feel so good to love each other as human beings? God made us in His own image - heaven alone knows what that really means but it just feels so right and good. And all the debates in the world can't hide the fact that we are loved and He is love. 

 

:blowkiss:

[Perigrina]

You know, since the comment was directed at JR, this might be one of those times when you could just  'let it go' and let him fight his own battles if he feels so inclined.

 

There is a psychological syndrome called 'Let's you and him fight.' in which one person eggs on another person to fight a third person. It's not always necessary to get involved in things that aren't really personal to us. Just a suggestion. No offence intended.

 

The Debate Table is an interesting place, n'est ce pas?

 

I was not egging one person on to fight another person.  I was trying to give John the message that I cared about him and would not stand by silent while someone made nasty comments about him.  Even though John takes the position that I disagree with and Mortify takes the position that I agree with, I do not put up with hitting below the belt.  

 

If the situation was reversed, I would be more inclined to let them fight it out.  But because Mortify is on "my side" I felt very strongly that I had to make clear that he was not speaking for me in this.

 

Ironically enough, your post above is an example of you getting involved in a situation that has nothing to do with you.  But i daresay you think you had a good reason, just like I thought I had a good reason when I did it.

[Perigrina]

Doesn't something like this belong in the Peace and Love Thread over in Open Mic? I mean, what's there to debate about in a statement like this one? :lol4:

 

CrossCut, you are a beautiful human being too. Thank you so much for bringing a little love into the Debate Table.   :love:

 

And doesn't it just feel so good to love each other as human beings? God made us in His own image - heaven alone knows what that really means but it just feels so right and good. And all the debates in the world can't hide the fact that we are loved and He is love. 

 

:blowkiss:

 

Loving the people who agree with us is easy.  The challenge is in loving those who disagree.  

[Credo in Deum]

You hear this Mortify?!  I've been mistaken for you! :)  This means we're brothers now. 

 

[AccountDeleted]

Loving the people who agree with us is easy.  The challenge is in loving those who disagree.

 
 
Did CrossCut post that because she loves me and does she love me because she agrees with me? How wonderful. I didn't realize. I thought she was just being nice because she is a nice person and wanted to post something loving. That's how I took it anyway. :) I love her too - I wonder if I agree with her on everything? This requires research... :P

Wait, I remember now, if a person challenges you to be better than you are, then they are helping you, so actually it should be easier to love them because they are doing you a favor. And since some people require an awful lot of patience for me on here, then I must really love them a lot. At least that's the theory.
 
The Debate Table can be a strange place sometimes. Maybe that's why the jokes get more props than the serious posts. And a few emoticons thrown in can help to lighten a somber mood.  :dance: 
 
I am finished with debating for now. There is only so much arguing a person should do in any one day. God is too beautiful to spend ALL one's time dealing in words. After all, even St Thomas Aquinas got sick of words after his experience of God's presence, and said of all his writings that they were as straw.  :harp: 

I've had enough straw for now..... so tired I can't think anyway so pay no attention to that woman behind the curtain.



####

 And as for you two - that'll be enough out of you! Back in box! :P

You hear this Mortify?!  I've been mistaken for you! :)  This means we're brothers now.