If God Wished That Nobody Would Perish In Hell, Then Why Did He Create

[Guest]

Perhaps, but I don't know. I like not knowing, it makes it all much more interesting. :cool:

And if you don't know call yourself an agnostic. That's what all the smart scientist really are who are trolling you and telling you there is no proof of God. They are very aware there is evidence. That why they come up with theories like the multiverse to explain away the in your face rock solid evidence for the intelligence that seems to be at work. Edited December 31, 2014 by Guest

[Not A Real Name]

I look at someone being tortured eternally for missing Mass to be trivial. Not that I believe if that hypothetical situation actually happened the person would end up in hell. Although I dont neglect the possibility and have no trouble saying if that happened I would think it's unfair and unjust.I'm allowed to have an opinion. As long as I don't exert it above God's and the Church. Or attempt to put it on the same level.

 

You do understand the meaning of the word trivial, right? 

Edited December 31, 2014 by Not A Real Name

[Guest]

Actually had it mixed up. Thanks.

[Not A Real Name]

Actually had it mixed up. Thanks.

 

No problem, Josh.  I had to ask because you had me confused there for a moment. I was thinking to myself, "if you find this trivial, then why are we debating it?" lol

Edited December 31, 2014 by Not A Real Name

[veritasluxmea]

This is old, but I think it's important to respond to this train of thought. There are a lot of people that perceive God through this legalistic lens, and I can certainly understand why, but it's fundamentally flawed.

 

When asking why God created hell, it's easy to come back with "We choose between God and hell, or even 'God and not-God'", but in reality that's not what the faith journey is. These questions aim at some point in our futures, but our individual decision to choose God happens every day, and the consequences of that decision occur immediately. 

 

Humans are not perfect, and we are born into and live in a world that is not perfect. God wants to fix our brokenness. It's a life-long process. His rules and laws are not unattainable standards, but instructions to keep us from doing more harm to us. When people say "living how I want to live", generally they mean they want to partake in some vice without realizing the real harm that vice is doing to them. Most of the time they don't want to know, othertimes they just deny it. It's in those decisions that they turn away from God, and why oftentimes it's only when people hit rock-bottom before they finally decide to give God a chance.

 

But even then, some people still don't. Hell is the cap-stone of a life of continually "doing it your way". 

 

Heaven is not a place where you get to do whatever you want, like God gives you a small private section of paradise and nothing bothers you. It's not. Heaven is where you love God, and he loves you. You have to actually want that. It's a relationship deeper than a marriage, and the courtship of that relationship is here on earth. 

 

Life is not about God striking you down with lightning if you do something wrong. Instead imagine you have a sister or a brother who is doing drugs, and you wish you could anything to help then because you love them - that's more like God and us.

I was skimming through this thread but actually did stop to read this and it helped with my understand of the question. Thank you. 

[little2add]

God could just erase people who don't make it to Heaven. No need for them to be tortured for eternity (whatever eternity is since I can't comprehend it) I've been reading lately how much the Catholic Church is against torture well it seems crazy then how torture for eternity is ok. Just not against terrorist who want to murder us. But God is God and I'm not. He can do as He pleases. If I do end up in hell I hope God just erases me though. I'm not a good guy compared to His standards but I don't deserve to be tortured for eternity (whatever eternity is) either. Because as I keep hearing over and over torture is never acceptable.

God did not create hell, humans did by their own deads and actions.
As far as eraseing oneself as the previous poster suggested, that would be impossible too, as what one does in life shall remain in eternity and influence or effect others until the end of time. Edited December 31, 2014 by little2add

[xSilverPhinx]

And if you don't know call yourself an agnostic. That's what all the smart scientist really are who are trolling you and telling you there is no proof of God. They are very aware there is evidence. That why they come up with theories like the multiverse to explain away the in your face rock solid evidence for the intelligence that seems to be at work.

 

I would consider myself an agnostic atheist, as would most atheists I know. Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge, whereas atheism is a statement about belief -- the two can overlap. It's known as "weak atheism" in other circles. Even Richard Dawkins identifies himself as an agnostic atheist, allowing for the small possibility that a god may exist. On the other hand, a gnostic atheist would be a "strong atheist", one who feels they know that there are no gods.

 

Here's a thread on the topic I posted here back in 2011, if you want further clarification: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/113863-what-is-an-agnostic-atheist/ 

[Socrates]

They are set so precise it couldn't be by random luck. It's impossible. Perhaps there are trillions and trillions of other universes and the laws HAD to be this way in one universe and this was the one. But I'm a betting man and I'll bet God fine tuned these laws and cosmological constant so life could evolve. And then you add in all the spiritual experiences of billions of people and consciousness and it seems like it's very probable God is real.

 

The problem with the "multiverse" hypotheses (which are only hypotheses, and is not genuine science, because there is absolutely no scientific evidence that there are any other universes outside this one), is that it would require, instead of a Creator God, some kind of "cosmic slot machine" (as someone termed it) which somehow randomly generates a vast or infinite number of complete universes such as our own, each with its own set of matter, time, space, and set of physical laws governing it.

 

Such a "cosmic slot machine" endlessly creating universes would be in itself even more wondrous and inexplicable than our own fine-tuned universe.  How would this universe-generating "slot machine" come to be, and what would account for its own operations?  Saying it came into existence through other endless random occurrences would be another cop out, rather than a convincing explanation.

 

Imo, it makes more sense to just believe in a Creator God who is pure infinite Being, as philosophers have reasoned to since ancient times.

 

The whole multiverse hypothesis seems more a desperate attempt to avoid belief in a Creator God, rather than a convincing explanation of the universe's existence.

[Guest]

Very well said Sir.

[Guest]

No problem, Josh. I had to ask because you had me confused there for a moment. I was thinking to myself, "if you find this trivial, then why are we debating it?" lol

haha Yea big mistake on my part. Of course I believe the Mass is important. Thanks for correcting me. Happy New Year and God Bless.

[Guest]

I would consider myself an agnostic atheist, as would most atheists I know. Agnosticism is a statement about knowledge, whereas atheism is a statement about belief -- the two can overlap. It's known as "weak atheism" in other circles. Even Richard Dawkins identifies himself as an agnostic atheist, allowing for the small possibility that a god may exist. On the other hand, a gnostic atheist would be a "strong atheist", one who feels they know that there are no gods.

Here's a thread on the topic I posted here back in 2011, if you want further clarification: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/113863-what-is-an-agnostic-atheist/

Will check it out when i have a second.

[Socrates]

Back to the original topic, let's presume that there is in fact no Hell or eternal torment for one's sins.

 

Then Adolf Hitler [or insert favorite historical "bad guy" of your choice], after a life of unspeakable crimes, whether he repented of his evil before death or not, is either spending eternity in perfect bliss in heaven along with all the saints, or else is simply painlessly removed from existence.

 

In other words, he gets off completely scot-free after all the countless horrific misery, torment, terror, and death he willfully inflicted on his fellow man.

 

A God that would operate in such a way would be fundamentally and horrifically unjust.

 

I certainly don't find such an unjust God any better or more believable than a just God who allows persons to suffer the just consequences of the evil they committed.

Insisting that God would never allow the unrepentant wicked to suffer seems like yet another example of modern mush-minded liberalism infecting theological thinking.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Socrates

[Era Might]

Punishment without the possibility of redemption is meaningless and irrational. There are more rational conceptions of God, such as that in the Bhagavad Gita, where the universe is a chaotic and ongoing process of change, constant pursuit of desire, which only ends when desire ends, when one realizes the meaninglessness of all attachment and desire, of all change. In that case, personal gods such as Krishna, Jesus, etc. are only manifestations of a God of pure being.

 

Thankfully, mush-minded liberalism has tried to move us beyond a world where the unrepentant wicked have their heads bashed in with rocks or their bodies burned at the stake in anticipation of their eternal punishment. Maybe someday we'll get beyond a world where prisons are icons of the meaningless punishment of hell.

[Guest]

Sounds...great.

What happened, if you don't mind my asking? I'd like to gain some more insight into what people call a personal relationship with their gods.

I don't feel comfortable going into detail in this thread. It was a dark moment and I will confess it in Confession. I will tell you though in my 33 years I have now had at least 5 distinct events happen that leave no question in my mind God communicated with me. You can communicate with God everyday through prayer but as a skeptic you could dismiss that if you wanted. As far as these events that happened though you would have a tougher time dismissing them. Sure you could say I'm lying because you don't know me ect ect but that doesn't change what happened. One of these events happened just recently after a year of sobriety. Even atheist Michael Shermer (think that's his name) founder of skeptic magazine just experienced an event like this that in his words shaked his skepticism to its core. Google it. The reason people have these experiences is because God is real. The reason why nature's laws and cosmological constant are so precise is because God is real. The reason we experience love and consciousness is because God is real. It's a reality even if you try to run from it and hope it isn't true. I've been all for someone convincing me in the past that God wasn't real. I thought science would maybe do that when I started investigating but the opposite was true. It made my faith even stronger. Have I questioned the goodness of God before ? Yep. Just as recently as yesterday. But he's big enough to let me vent and go crazy then talk some reason into me when I'm finished. Edited December 31, 2014 by Guest

[Guest]

I certainly don't find such an unjust God any better or more believable than a just God who allows persons to suffer the just consequences of the evil they committed.
Insisting that God would never allow the unrepentant wicked to suffer seems like yet another example of modern mush-minded liberalism infecting theological thinking.

The problem I have is when people in the Church make it seem as if everyone will go to hell. And then emphasize how much torture there will be in hell and it will last for eternity. Yet the Church teaches that torture is never ok and that it's evil. Recently I have been hearing over and over that torturing terrorist for information is a mortal sin and never ok. Not that I don't agree with this but I find it difficult when voices in the Church then say most of humanity will be tortured in hell for eternity.