If God Wished That Nobody Would Perish In Hell, Then Why Did He Create

[Guest]

Rather than try to explain one claim of supernatural experience, I would point out that there are thousands and thousands of such claims, all of them different, some bizarre, etc. A honestly, I wouldn't put much attention to a book called "Heaven Is for Real" and a New York Times Bestseller. People like feel-good stories. When money and marketing is involved, I wouldn't give it any spiritual attention.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QdUGoFTfP7w# His dad is still the Pastor of the same small church in the same small town. This seems pretty legit and not exaggerated for the big screen. I read the book too. Good stuff. It all comes down to consciousness in my opinion. That's where the mystery lies. Edited January 1, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Atheist college professor dies and sees hell and demons part 1 http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kLimoqZUWgw# part 2 http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tC0VOx4M5ZE#

Edited January 1, 2015 by Guest

[Guest]

Atheist dead on morgue slab goes to hell then heaven then back to earth http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=59mRZ1Vj8ZU# this one is a must watch

[Socrates]

Punishment without the possibility of redemption is meaningless and irrational. There are more rational conceptions of God, such as that in the Bhagavad Gita, where the universe is a chaotic and ongoing process of change, constant pursuit of desire, which only ends when desire ends, when one realizes the meaninglessness of all attachment and desire, of all change. In that case, personal gods such as Krishna, Jesus, etc. are only manifestations of a God of pure being.

 

Thankfully, mush-minded liberalism has tried to move us beyond a world where the unrepentant wicked have their heads bashed in with rocks or their bodies burned at the stake in anticipation of their eternal punishment. Maybe someday we'll get beyond a world where prisons are icons of the meaningless punishment of hell.

 

If you reject the concept of a need for justice, I'm afraid there's really not much I can do to convince you.

 

I'm not Hindu, and I certainly don't find Hindu and similar conceptions of divinity more rational than the Christian one, so again we'll just have to disagree on that.

 

It seems many in the modern world reject the whole concept of justice, in favor of relativism.  But if we reject justice, we have no right to complain of injustice.  Down inside, I think everybody has a sense of justice - that ultimately good should be rewarded and evil punished.  

Usually, the abstract relativistic denial of "justice" flies out the window the moment a person, or someone close to him, becomes a victim of injustice.

 

There's nothing good or rational about a God who rewards does not allow persons to suffer any consequence for evil choices.

[Era Might]

If you reject the concept of a need for justice, I'm afraid there's really not much I can do to convince you.

 

I'm not Hindu, and I certainly don't find Hindu and similar conceptions of divinity more rational than the Christian one, so again we'll just have to disagree on that.

 

It seems many in the modern world reject the whole concept of justice, in favor of relativism.  But if we reject justice, we have no right to complain of injustice.  Down inside, I think everybody has a sense of justice - that ultimately good should be rewarded and evil punished.  

Usually, the abstract relativistic denial of "justice" flies out the window the moment a person, or someone close to him, becomes a victim of injustice.

 

There's nothing good or rational about a God who rewards does not allow persons to suffer any consequence for evil choices.

 

The fact that we die and the world continues is itself justice. The world constantly renews itself. There is no need for a cosmic torturer. I don't sleep well at night because somebody who committed an injustice against me is burning in hell. I sleep well at night because I know the world goes on despite the injustice that happened to me, and as long as the world goes on, there is the possibility for redemption, that injustice will not repeat itself, and justice will flourish. I also sleep well because the person who committed the injustice, hopefully, is still alive, and can still change.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Era Might

[Socrates]

The problem I have is when people in the Church make it seem as if everyone will go to hell. And then emphasize how much torture there will be in hell and it will last for eternity. Yet the Church teaches that torture is never ok and that it's evil. Recently I have been hearing over and over that torturing terrorist for information is a mortal sin and never ok. Not that I don't agree with this but I find it difficult when voices in the Church then say most of humanity will be tortured in hell for eternity.

 

I don't know anyone in the Church who says everyone will go to hell, though Christ Himself taught that the gate to heaven is small and the road to heaven narrow, and that few would find it.  (Matthew 7:14)

 

Jesus Christ also spoke numerous times in the Gospels about the torments of hell, and the need to avoid it.  It seems if you have a problem with Catholic teaching on the reality and seriousness of hell, you also have a problem with the teaching of Jesus Himself.

 

Torture is sadistically inflicting pain on others, but the torments of the damned in hell are simply the consequence of their own rejection of God and His mercy.

[Era Might]

True justice is not torturous punishment, but understanding. Even in the modern Christian conception, hell is the damned person's understanding of their desire to turn away from God. I simply reject that premise, that we exist on an eternal plane where the possibility for redemption (i.e., awareness of wrong and turning toward good) ceases. Better to simply deny the existence of a soul, IMO.

[Era Might]

I don't know anyone in the Church who says everyone will go to hell, though Christ Himself taught that the gate to heaven is small and the road to heaven narrow, and that few would find it.  (Matthew 7:14)

 

Jesus Christ also spoke numerous times in the Gospels about the torments of hell, and the need to avoid it.  It seems if you have a problem with Catholic teaching on the reality and seriousness of hell, you also have a problem with the teaching of Jesus Himself.

 

Well, yes, of course, though I don't equate Christ with medieval Catholic theology, though they have the same basic premise regarding hell.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Era Might

[Guest]

I don't know anyone in the Church who says everyone will go to hell, though Christ Himself taught that the gate to heaven is small and the road to heaven narrow, and that few would find it. (Matthew 7:14)

Jesus Christ also spoke numerous times in the Gospels about the torments of hell, and the need to avoid it. It seems if you have a problem with Catholic teaching on the reality and seriousness of hell, you also have a problem with the teaching of Jesus Himself.

Torture is sadistically inflicting pain on others, but the torments of the damned in hell are simply the consequence of their own rejection of God and His mercy.

You're right. Good post. Happy New Year Socrates and God bless.

[Socrates]

The fact that we die and the world continues is itself justice. The world constantly renews itself. There is no need for a cosmic torturer. I don't sleep well at night because somebody who committed an injustice against me is burning in hell. I sleep well at night because I know the world goes on despite the injustice that happened to me, and as long as the world goes on, there is the possibility for redemption, that injustice will not repeat itself, and justice will flourish. I also sleep well because the person who committed the injustice, hopefully, is still alive, and can still change.

 

So if Hitler (to continue my cliched example) did not change before death, you're perfectly happy with him suffering no significant consequence for his evil?

And do you also find nothing wrong or troubling if good persons who suffer enormous evil or suffering in this world through no fault of their own have no reward of eternal happiness to look forward to after death?

 

If there is no heaven or hell, human existence is fundamentally and massively unjust.

[Guest]

Torture is sadistically inflicting pain on others, but the torments of the damned in hell are simply the consequence of their own rejection of God and His mercy.

Yea this is sorta what one of the guys described when he went to hell in the video I posted.

[Era Might]

It seems many in the modern world reject the whole concept of justice, in favor of relativism.  But if we reject justice, we have no right to complain of injustice.  Down inside, I think everybody has a sense of justice - that ultimately good should be rewarded and evil punished.  

Usually, the abstract relativistic denial of "justice" flies out the window the moment a person, or someone close to him, becomes a victim of injustice.

 

One of the beautiful aspects of the story of Christ is how he challenged what the "righteous" considered justice and injustice. When the pharisees were going to stone the woman caught in adultery, without dismissing her sin, Christ at the same time protected her as a victim of injustice, not just a perpetrator. The Christian message was remarkably tipped to mercy, not justice; St. James says, "For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13). The real division in the Gospels is not between "good" and "bad" but between redeemed and un-redeemed. Of course, the Gospel is focused on the person and mythological sacrifice of Christ, so redemption has to have an end point and eternal consequences; but otherwise, its conception of justice is very much NOT the simplistic "good" and "evil" that you speak of, some innate human sense of reward and punishment. That is the kind of concept that would have had the adulterous woman stoned, and which Christ rejected, because Christian redemption recognizes the common lot of humanity, and the need for a new creation, not an appeal to an old corrupted creation.

 

 

For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 

 

--Romans 3:20-26

Edited January 1, 2015 by Era Might

[Guest]

Why do you say the mythological sacrifice of Christ?

[Era Might]

Why do you say the mythological sacrifice of Christ?

 

Because that's what it is, a mythological story of a God-man, though as I said, the story of Christ has a very unique and beautiful message. But of course, unless you accept the premise of supernatural beings playing out a cosmic storyline in the air, the sacrifice of Christ is a human myth, like the sacrifices of other gods/religions, though that is not to say Christ himself did not exist in history/die.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Era Might

[Guest]

Do you believe Jesus lived? Do you believe he died on the cross?

Edited January 2, 2015 by Guest