Catholic Preaching

[Gabriela]

*Must. Hold. Back. The. Temptation. To. Make. A. Rolling Stones. Joke.*

?

[Gabriela]

​Any advice my priests would take from me would probably make their homilies worse.  I am more concerned that I get what I need from them rather than what I want.

​Do you get what you need?

[Nihil Obstat]

​Do you get what you need?

At my current parish, yes. We are blessed with excellent priests.

[The Historian]

Billy Bob is sitting at home one day, and suddenly he finds himself dropped into a lake, newspaper, coffee and all.  Billy Bob can't swim.  The life guard comes along in a boat, and brings along a flotation device.  He then proceeds to shout down to Billy Bob from the boat the proper swimming technique which will allow him to reach the shore.  He even points out a neat backstroke technique.

Now, if I was Billy Bob, I'd just want the floatation device thrown to me.

The primary purpose of a priest is to administer the Sacraments.  It is solely by the grace conferred by the holy Sacraments that we can save our souls.  There is, of course, a purpose to preaching.  It is a good thing, and we could do with a fair few better preachers.  But we're not "losing" to Protestantism because they have amesome preachers.  We're not "losing" to modern society because they present their hedonistic materialism in a much flashier manner.

We're losing out because the Sacraments are not frequented and grace is not received.  And this is, ultimately, down to the rather sloppy manner in which the sacraments are conferred and administered.  Restore dignity to the Sacraments, and grace will again abound amongst the faithful.

[truthfinder]

The Historian - welcome! I agree with what you are saying, but preaching is important.  Numerous councils throughout the last century have reiterated this: Lateran, Trent, Vatican II.  Preaching is important so that the people can more fruitfully access the graces they are being offered through the Sacraments.

Let's see what Vatican II has to say about preaching: from Sacrosanctum Concilium 35.2 "Because the sermon is part of the liturgical service, the best place for it is to be indicated even in the rubrics, as far as the nature of the rite will allow; the ministry of preaching is to be fulfilled with exactitude and fidelity. The sermon, moreover, should draw its content mainly from scriptural and liturgical sources, and its character should be that of a proclamation of God's wonderful works in the history of salvation, the mystery of Christ, ever made present and active within us, especially in the celebration of the liturgy."

Carrying on one of my many torches that I have moaned about here and elsewhere - the content is drawn "mainly from scriptural and liturgical sources" - this does not mean stick only to the text of the day.  Also by this standard, the FSSP priests I have heard preach more often than not are more in line with Vatican II than many others (although this is thankfully starting to slowly improve).  One of my parish priest's today, not FSSP btw, directly linked the receiving Communion unworthily with Judas's kiss in the Garden - of all the themes he could have chosen today, that's the one. A beautiful and yet necessary wake-up call for the congregation (namely myself).

 

I will add that in my own research, some of the medieval preachings that have been recorded would certainly get a priest put on leave for their earthy (and sometimes vulgar) comparisons and imagery.  It made the point very clearly about the effects of sin but most certainly on the level of the peasants.    

[AccountDeleted]

Billy Bob is sitting at home one day, and suddenly he finds himself dropped into a lake, newspaper, coffee and all.  Billy Bob can't swim.  The life guard comes along in a boat, and brings along a flotation device.  He then proceeds to shout down to Billy Bob from the boat the proper swimming technique which will allow him to reach the shore.  He even points out a neat backstroke technique.

Now, if I was Billy Bob, I'd just want the floatation device thrown to me.

The primary purpose of a priest is to administer the Sacraments.  It is solely by the grace conferred by the holy Sacraments that we can save our souls.  There is, of course, a purpose to preaching.  It is a good thing, and we could do with a fair few better preachers.  But we're not "losing" to Protestantism because they have amesome preachers.  We're not "losing" to modern society because they present their hedonistic materialism in a much flashier manner.

We're losing out because the Sacraments are not frequented and grace is not received.  And this is, ultimately, down to the rather sloppy manner in which the sacraments are conferred and administered.  Restore dignity to the Sacraments, and grace will again abound amongst the faithful.

​Actually, speaking as a convert. I don't think the Sacraments mean as much to a non-Catholic as they do to a Catholic, simply because the understanding isn't there yet.

The thing that got me into the Church, and later an appreciation of the Sacraments, was example. I had the example of some very holy women to inspire me to want to be more like them and to ask them how. Then they told me about becoming a Catholic, and then I had instruction and only after I was baptized and actually received the Sacraments, did I start to become aware how important they were to me.

I think sometimes Catholics really have no idea what evangelization is. They think that because they understand the Sacraments that everyone will or should. Conversion is often a slow process, taking many steps and perhaps even missteps along the way. But nothing preaches the Gospel better than someone who is living the Gospel - a living example of Christ's love for us all, Catholic and non-Catholic alike. He has many sheep not of this fold and He wants to bring us all together, but that takes time and love and example.

 

[AccountDeleted]

That last post was a specific response but back to the OP about homilies,

I really like dUSt's post. I don't mind that not every priest is a great speaker, but it would be nice if they could have the humility to recognize when this is so, and make their homilies relevant and shorter. The homily shouldn't be a penance IMO and often it feels like it!

 

[truthfinder]

That last post was a specific response but back to the OP about homilies,

I really like dUSt's post. I don't mind that not every priest is a great speaker, but it would be nice if they could have the humility to recognize when this is so, and make their homilies relevant and shorter. The homily shouldn't be a penance IMO and often it feels like it!

 

​Maybe part of the problem is that no one will tell them they're homilies are poor.  Maybe each priest should select an unbiased individual who will tell them...

Granted, there have been priests who weren't the greatest homilists, but every once and awhile they'd have a great homily.  It almost made you appreciate it that much more because you knew they really tried.  

Homilies being penance - hasn't happened in a while.  The last homily I heard at my former parish was 30 minutes (I timed; priest claimed his homilies were always 15 minutes), and it was too short.  Most other priests, if their homilies were that long, I'd probably glare/glaze over, or take a bathroom break.

[Credo in Deum]

I'm incredibly greaful for our parish priest.  He may not be the most eloquent orator but you can see his love for God and this makes his sermons truly inspiring.  We've also had some great visiting priests.  One started his sermon on the dogma of Hell with a deep loud voice saying "COME DOWN TO HELL!"  Whoo, you could here a pin drop in the church. Everyone's eyes were glued to the pulpit.  A truly amazing sermon.  I'm happy to say that on Sundays the sermons are the icing on an already perfect spiritual cake which is the beautifuly celebrated EF Mass.  God bless the FSSP. 

 

[The Historian]

 

 

​

The Historian - welcome! I agree with what you are saying, but preaching is important.  Numerous councils throughout the last century have reiterated this: Lateran, Trent, Vatican II.  Preaching is important so that the people can more fruitfully access the graces they are being offered through the Sacraments.

Let's see what Vatican II has to say about preaching: from Sacrosanctum Concilium 35.2 "Because the sermon is part of the liturgical service, the best place for it is to be indicated even in the rubrics, as far as the nature of the rite will allow; the ministry of preaching is to be fulfilled with exactitude and fidelity. The sermon, moreover, should draw its content mainly from scriptural and liturgical sources, and its character should be that of a proclamation of God's wonderful works in the history of salvation, the mystery of Christ, ever made present and active within us, especially in the celebration of the liturgy."

Carrying on one of my many torches that I have moaned about here and elsewhere - the content is drawn "mainly from scriptural and liturgical sources" - this does not mean stick only to the text of the day.  Also by this standard, the FSSP priests I have heard preach more often than not are more in line with Vatican II than many others (although this is thankfully starting to slowly improve).  One of my parish priest's today, not FSSP btw, directly linked the receiving Communion unworthily with Judas's kiss in the Garden - of all the themes he could have chosen today, that's the one. A beautiful and yet necessary wake-up call for the congregation (namely myself).

 

I will add that in my own research, some of the medieval preachings that have been recorded would certainly get a priest put on leave for their earthy (and sometimes vulgar) comparisons and imagery.  It made the point very clearly about the effects of sin but most certainly on the level of the peasants.    

​Thank you for the welcome, but I'm not new, I'm the same old historian from before!

My above post probably came across as a little flippant, which I didn't intend.  I do recognise the importance of preaching; Christ gave the Church the Great Commission which necessarily involves preaching.  I just don't feel that in the current situation facing the Church we should be overly worrying about the state of Catholic preaching in light of the massive challenges facing the liturgical and sacramental life of the Church.  I'm also one of those people that believes the homily during Mass needs to be suppressed!

 

[The Historian]

The thing that got me into the Church, and later an appreciation of the Sacraments, was example.

​I completely agree.  And there is absolutely no better example than the public prayer of the Church in her liturgies and in her sacraments.

[AccountDeleted]

​I completely agree.  And there is absolutely no better example than the public prayer of the Church in her liturgies and in her sacraments.

​Not true. At least for me. The best example IMO is the living witness of someone who lives the Gospel. To me, it's like the living example of a true Christian is the doorway that opens into the main room of the house, where the liturgy and Sacraments are. At least for me, without the living example of those saintly women in the MCs, I would never have found my way into the main room. And I think it applies to a lot of people that way. Ghandi found Christians lacking and so didn't bother going into the main room. My own relatives and friends have been to Mass with me (and one sister even attended an EF Easter vigil with me) but the words and the Sacraments have little relevance to someone who doesn't see the living example of Christ in His followers. Just saying...

[The Historian]

​Not true. At least for me. The best example IMO is the living witness of someone who lives the Gospel. To me, it's like the living example of a true Christian is the doorway that opens into the main room of the house, where the liturgy and Sacraments are. At least for me, without the living example of those saintly women in the MCs, I would never have found my way into the main room. And I think it applies to a lot of people that way. Ghandi found Christians lacking and so didn't bother going into the main room. My own relatives and friends have been to Mass with me (and one sister even attended an EF Easter vigil with me) but the words and the Sacraments have little relevance to someone who doesn't see the living example of Christ in His followers. Just saying...

​And Oscar Wilde, unlike Ghandi, did enter into the main room, and it was by Mass that he converted.  Anyway, the opinions of Ghandi are worthless.

What is the primary purpose of a Christian's life?  To love and worship God, and to be made into the image of Christ.  And Christ's primary purpose on earth was to glorify His Father.  Our Christian acts with one another are secondary, and ultimately stem from our Christian duty towards worshiping God, and we worship God rightly during the liturgies of the Church.  This must, at all times, be our priority.  In fact, unless the liturgical life is at the centre of our own spiritual lives and evangelising efforts, then the impression will be left amongst people that they can be good people without Christ - Ghandi would be case in point.

Even the pagans can serve justice.  Only the Church can worship God in spirit and truth.  And that is the only way we'll save our immortal souls.

[AccountDeleted]

​And Oscar Wilde, unlike Ghandi, did enter into the main room, and it was by Mass that he converted.  Anyway, the opinions of Ghandi are worthless.

What is the primary purpose of a Christian's life?  To love and worship God, and to be made into the image of Christ.  And Christ's primary purpose on earth was to glorify His Father.  Our Christian acts with one another are secondary, and ultimately stem from our Christian duty towards worshiping God, and we worship God rightly during the liturgies of the Church.  This must, at all times, be our priority.  In fact, unless the liturgical life is at the centre of our own spiritual lives and evangelising efforts, then the impression will be left amongst people that they can be good people without Christ - Ghandi would be case in point.

Even the pagans can serve justice.  Only the Church can worship God in spirit and truth.  And that is the only way we'll save our immortal souls.

​You said it yourself, our purpose is to love and worship God and to be made into the image of Christ. But so many Christians are not the image of Christ, and that is what Ghandi was talking about. As for whether his opinions are worthless or not, well, most people of good sense tend to disagree with you, but that's neither here nor there in the long run. 

Jesus gave us two commandments. One was to love God and the other was to love each other. And St John said that we couldn't love God if we didn't love each other. And He didn't limit that to loving Christians only. Don't scorn good people who aren't Christians - they might just be closer to God's heart than those Christians who are not an image and example of Christ.

If you were born into a Catholic family, then you are indeed blessed, but if you judge others for not being given that blessing, then you are not a living example of Christ, who saw faith even in the Centurion and the Canaanite woman.

 

 

PS edited to include Oscar Wilde info: According to Wikipedia, which might be wrong, so please provide me with a better source if you have it, Wilde was attracted to the Catholic faith by Newman and Pope Pius IX. He never actually became a Catholic and was also a Master Mason. So the Mass alone didn't do it for him. HE was close but perhaps if he had spent more time with those examples who inspired him, he might have made it. We will never know for sure I guess.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde 

At Magdalen, he (wilde)  read Greats from 1874 to 1878, and from there he applied to join the Oxford Union, but failed to be elected.^[18]

Attracted by its dress, secrecy, and ritual, Wilde petitioned the Apollo Masonic Lodge at Oxford, and was soon raised to the "Sublime Degree of Master Mason".^[19] During a resurgent interest in Freemasonry in his third year, he commented he "would be awfully sorry to give it up if I secede from the Protestant Heresy".^[20] He was deeply considering converting to Catholicism, discussing the possibility with clergy several times. In 1877, Wilde was left speechless after an audience with Pope Pius IX in Rome.^[21] He eagerly read Cardinal Newman's books, and became more serious in 1878, when he met the Reverend Sebastian Bowden, a priest in the Brompton Oratory who had received some high profile converts. Neither his father, who threatened to cut off his funds, nor Mahaffy thought much of the plan; but mostly Wilde, the supreme individualist, balked at the last minute from pledging himself to any formal creed. On the appointed day of his baptism, Father Bowden received a bunch of altar lilies instead. Wilde retained a lifelong interest in Catholic theology and liturgy.^[22]

[The Historian]

​You said it yourself, our purpose is to love and worship God and to be made into the image of Christ. But so many Christians are not the image of Christ, and that is what Ghandi was talking about. As for whether his opinions are worthless or not, well, most people of good sense tend to disagree with you, but that's neither here nor there in the long run. 

Jesus gave us two commandments. One was to love God and the other was to love each other. And St John said that we couldn't love God if we didn't love each other. And He didn't limit that to loving Christians only. Don't scorn good people who aren't Christians - they might just be closer to God's heart than those Christians who are not an image and example of Christ.

If you were born into a Catholic family, then you are indeed blessed, but if you judge others for not being given that blessing, then you are not a living example of Christ, who saw faith even in the Centurion and the Canaanite woman.

 

 

PS edited to include Oscar Wilde info: According to Wikipedia, which might be wrong, so please provide me with a better source if you have it, Wilde was attracted to the Catholic faith by Newman and Pope Pius IX. He never actually became a Catholic and was also a Master Mason. So the Mass alone didn't do it for him. HE was close but perhaps if he had spent more time with those examples who inspired him, he might have made it. We will never know for sure I guess.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde 

At Magdalen, he (wilde)  read Greats from 1874 to 1878, and from there he applied to join the Oxford Union, but failed to be elected.^[18]

Attracted by its dress, secrecy, and ritual, Wilde petitioned the Apollo Masonic Lodge at Oxford, and was soon raised to the "Sublime Degree of Master Mason".^[19] During a resurgent interest in Freemasonry in his third year, he commented he "would be awfully sorry to give it up if I secede from the Protestant Heresy".^[20] He was deeply considering converting to Catholicism, discussing the possibility with clergy several times. In 1877, Wilde was left speechless after an audience with Pope Pius IX in Rome.^[21] He eagerly read Cardinal Newman's books, and became more serious in 1878, when he met the Reverend Sebastian Bowden, a priest in the Brompton Oratory who had received some high profile converts. Neither his father, who threatened to cut off his funds, nor Mahaffy thought much of the plan; but mostly Wilde, the supreme individualist, balked at the last minute from pledging himself to any formal creed. On the appointed day of his baptism, Father Bowden received a bunch of altar lilies instead. Wilde retained a lifelong interest in Catholic theology and liturgy.^[22]

​Father Cuthbert Dunne, C.P., received Oscar Wilde into the Catholic Church as he lay dying in Paris, this was witnessed by Wilde's last friend, Robert Ross.  You can find details of his conversion written by a Passionist priest here.  It was Wilde's exposure to the liturgy of the Church that first excited in him a love for the Catholic faith.  He spoke of his great appreciation of the liturgy in De Profundis, and from his earlier letters he spoke of sitting at the back of the church watching Mass.  Which is where the scenes from Dorian Grey came from, they were autobiographical.  He didn't convert until he died, but he did try earlier.  The Jesuits simply refused to accept him after his incarceration in Reading Gaol.  I think it's safe to say that he left his Masonic connections behind him.

I am well aware of what Ghandi was saying, I simply find it worthless.  You're more than welcome to disagree with me.  But it is simply a polite way for him to hide his own racist and sectarian views.  I could turn around and say the exact same thing regarding Hindu atrocities in India.  But it would be a philosophically bankrupt statement.  Christ was very clear.  "I am the way, the truth and the life."

Now, I'm not scorning anyone.  I'm simply saying someone's opinion was worthless.  I am not denying that we are to love all people.  I'm just saying that there is no equity between our love of God and our love of neighbour.  We cannot separate the two, but one clearly precedes the other.  Loving your neighbour apart from loving God is meritless.  We love our neighbour precisely because we love God.  And the heart of our love of God is in our worship of Him, which is perfected by the Church's liturgies.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this issue.  I would just encourage you though to perhaps read the words of Blessed Columba Marmion and Saint Jean Eudes, especially their works on Holy Baptism and what it means to be in the image of Christ.