Catholic Preaching

[AccountDeleted]

​Father Cuthbert Dunne, C.P., received Oscar Wilde into the Catholic Church as he lay dying in Paris, this was witnessed by Wilde's last friend, Robert Ross.  You can find details of his conversion written by a Passionist priest here.  It was Wilde's exposure to the liturgy of the Church that first excited in him a love for the Catholic faith.  He spoke of his great appreciation of the liturgy in De Profundis, and from his earlier letters he spoke of sitting at the back of the church watching Mass.  Which is where the scenes from Dorian Grey came from, they were autobiographical.  He didn't convert until he died, but he did try earlier.  The Jesuits simply refused to accept him after his incarceration in Reading Gaol.  I think it's safe to say that he left his Masonic connections behind him.

I am well aware of what Ghandi was saying, I simply find it worthless.  You're more than welcome to disagree with me.  But it is simply a polite way for him to hide his own racist and sectarian views.  I could turn around and say the exact same thing regarding Hindu atrocities in India.  But it would be a philosophically bankrupt statement.  Christ was very clear.  "I am the way, the truth and the life."

Now, I'm not scorning anyone.  I'm simply saying someone's opinion was worthless.  I am not denying that we are to love all people.  I'm just saying that there is no equity between our love of God and our love of neighbour.  We cannot separate the two, but one clearly precedes the other.  Loving your neighbour apart from loving God is meritless.  We love our neighbour precisely because we love God.  And the heart of our love of God is in our worship of Him, which is perfected by the Church's liturgies.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this issue.  I would just encourage you though to perhaps read the words of Blessed Columba Marmion and Saint Jean Eudes, especially their works on Holy Baptism and what it means to be in the image of Christ.

​Thank you for your reading suggestions. I have already read them, and many more besides. I just don't see things the way you do, and there is obviously room for all of us here in this world, as God makes it to rain on the good and evil alike.

If Wilde converted on his deathbed, it more likely his fear of death than his love of the Mass that did it. But I wasn't there and can't judge the state of his heart or his motivations for his actions. Just as you can't judge anyone else either. This is a thing that often gets forgotten. 

St John asked how we could love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother we can. But your philosophy is that we can love God and still consider our neighbor worthless. Different strokes I guess.

[KnightofChrist]

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

― Mahatma Gandhi

 

Why aren't Gandhi's words here not seen as highly and broadly judgmental? I doubt a Christian could make that comment about non-Christians and not be accused of being judgmental. I think I know what he was trying to say but it seems a bit too harsh. He was not able to find any Christian that he liked? None of us are like Christ? Anyway I don't like what he said because it paints with a wide brush.

 

Leading by example is a great and we should all do it. But making that the most important reason to become Christian can be dangerous. When I cam back to the faith in great part I followed someone whom I thought at the time was leading by example. A man who turned his life around from a very sinful life and became a priest. If he could turn away from sin so could I. But it was thankful not my main reason for living as a Catholic again. Still when Father John Corapi fell from grace it had a profound effect on me. So I can see how it could be dangerous for others to put their 'faith' in persons and not in greater things. Humans fall and they will disappoint you.

 

[AccountDeleted]

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

― Mahatma Gandhi

 

Why aren't Gandhi's words here not seen as highly and broadly judgmental? I doubt a Christian could make that comment about non-Christians and not be accused of being judgmental. I think I know what he was trying to say but it seems a bit too harsh. He was not able to find any Christian that he liked? None of us are like Christ? Anyway I don't like what he said because it paints with a wide brush.

 

Leading by example is a great and we should all do it. But making that the most important reason to become Christian can be dangerous. When I cam back to the faith in great part I followed someone whom I thought at the time was leading by example. A man who turned his life around from a very sinful life and became a priest. If he could turn away from sin so could I. But it was thankful not my main reason for living as a Catholic again. Still when Father John Corapi fell from grace it had a profound effect on me. So I can see how it could be dangerous for others to put their 'faith' in persons and not in greater things. Humans fall and they will disappoint you.

 

I think Ghandi was certainly generalizing here, just as we often generalize about Muslims. Perhaps he had had some bad experiences with Christians, I don't know, but the sentiment of the statement (for me) is that Christ isn't the stumbling block for a lot of people, the behavior of Christians is. But whether a person takes offense at his words or not, I still think there is something to learn from them.

And you make a very good point in terms of not buying into 'personality cults'. But when I say an example of Christ, I don't mean that you should blindly follow someone you think is holier than you are. I am referring to actually seeing the love of Christ in another human being and allowing that example to guide you towards the faith. It might be a subtle difference, but it is a difference.

You state that you were led back to the faith, so perhaps that person actually was a good example of Christ at one time? Or perhaps you were misled by words, because Corapi certainly was a very powerful speaker, and very charismatic. In either case, you were strong enough in the faith by the time he had his 'fall' that you were able to hang on. 

My example was initially Mother Teresa of Calcutta and then the nuns of her community that I worked with every day for months. I saw Christ in them, in their service to the poor and the lonely and the alcoholics at the center where I worked with them. If Mother Teresa had turned out to have feet of clay, then yes, it would have been sad, but I wasn't following her because of her personality or her words but because of her actions that spoke louder than any words she could have said. And I do give her credit for my initial interest in Catholicism, but the hard work was up to me, and the grace was God's.

Like you, I have also had disappointments in people who should have been good examples of Christ but who weren't - in fact they were the opposite. But, also like you, even though the storms shook the boat a little, my faith was strong enough by this time to hang on to God and to accept that other human beings are fallible, just as I am. We can't all be examples of Christ all the time, but I certainly see being a loving example as something to strive towards.

 

[The Historian]

​Thank you for your reading suggestions. I have already read them, and many more besides. I just don't see things the way you do, and there is obviously room for all of us here in this world, as God makes it to rain on the good and evil alike.

If Wilde converted on his deathbed, it more likely his fear of death than his love of the Mass that did it. But I wasn't there and can't judge the state of his heart or his motivations for his actions. Just as you can't judge anyone else either. This is a thing that often gets forgotten. 

St John asked how we could love the God we cannot see if we do not love the brother we can. But your philosophy is that we can love God and still consider our neighbor worthless. Different strokes I guess.

If you've read them then I am amazed that you can speak of non-Christians being conformable to the image of Christ, since being made in the image of Christ is intrinsically related to the Sacrament of Baptism.  Your conception of the life of Christ being perpetuated in the Church appears to be solely measured against exterior acts and works.  This is a rather superficial Christianity in my opinion.

to say that Oscar Wilde converted simply out of fear of death is a rather uneducated opinion.  Yes, you're right, we can't ultimately judge what was going on his soul at the time.  But his life-long association with Catholicism is well known to his biographers, and like I said, he applied to be houses with the Jesuits before he ever went to France, they wouldn't have home housed with them though.  It was fear that kept him away from the Church, it was beautiful, truth and goodness that brought him in to it.

Your final paragraph is a rather evil accusation.  Please quote wherever I said a person is worthless?  I said an opinion is worthless.  People are not their opinions, and just because you have an opinion doesn't automatically give that opinion any merit.

[AccountDeleted]

If you've read them then I am amazed that you can speak of non-Christians being conformable to the image of Christ, since being made in the image of Christ is intrinsically related to the Sacrament of Baptism.  Your conception of the life of Christ being perpetuated in the Church appears to be solely measured against exterior acts and works.  This is a rather superficial Christianity in my opinion.

to say that Oscar Wilde converted simply out of fear of death is a rather uneducated opinion.  Yes, you're right, we can't ultimately judge what was going on his soul at the time.  But his life-long association with Catholicism is well known to his biographers, and like I said, he applied to be houses with the Jesuits before he ever went to France, they wouldn't have home housed with them though.  It was fear that kept him away from the Church, it was beautiful, truth and goodness that brought him in to it.

Your final paragraph is a rather evil accusation.  Please quote wherever I said a person is worthless?  I said an opinion is worthless.  People are not their opinions, and just because you have an opinion doesn't automatically give that opinion any merit.

​Well, you are right, just because you have an opinion, doesn't give that opinion any merit. So that being said, I am not going to debate this with you any more. this is not the Debate Table and I disagree with you and your opinion. 

 

[KnightofChrist]

I think Ghandi was certainly generalizing here, just as we often generalize about Muslims. Perhaps he had had some bad experiences with Christians, I don't know, but the sentiment of the statement (for me) is that Christ isn't the stumbling block for a lot of people, the behavior of Christians is. But whether a person takes offense at his words or not, I still think there is something to learn from them.

I'm not even sure that he actually said what he is quoted as saying. Apparently it's from a secondary source, and I've heard it interpreted different ways. For example sometimes it is written "I don't like your Christianity" rather than "Christians". Source: http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=61900

Whether or not Ghandi actually said it Christ was indeed a stumbling block for him.

I regard Jesus as a great teacher of humanity, but I do not regard him as the only begotten son of God. That epithet in its material interpretation is quite unacceptable. Metaphorically we are all sons of God, but for each of us there may be different sons of God in a special sense. Thus for me Chaitanya may be the only begotten son of God … God cannot be the exclusive Father and I cannot ascribe exclusive divinity to Jesus.”
[Ghandi in the Harijan Journal: June 3, 1937]  Source:  http://www.lutheranlayman.com/2014/02/no-mahatma-gandhi-did-not-like-our.html

And you make a very good point in terms of not buying into 'personality cults'. But when I say an example of Christ, I don't mean that you should blindly follow someone you think is holier than you are. I am referring to actually seeing the love of Christ in another human being and allowing that example to guide you towards the faith. It might be a subtle difference, but it is a difference.

You state that you were led back to the faith, so perhaps that person actually was a good example of Christ at one time? Or perhaps you were misled by words, because Corapi certainly was a very powerful speaker, and very charismatic. In either case, you were strong enough in the faith by the time he had his 'fall' that you were able to hang on. 

My example was initially Mother Teresa of Calcutta and then the nuns of her community that I worked with every day for months. I saw Christ in them, in their service to the poor and the lonely and the alcoholics at the center where I worked with them. If Mother Teresa had turned out to have feet of clay, then yes, it would have been sad, but I wasn't following her because of her personality or her words but because of her actions that spoke louder than any words she could have said. And I do give her credit for my initial interest in Catholicism, but the hard work was up to me, and the grace was God's.

Like you, I have also had disappointments in people who should have been good examples of Christ but who weren't - in fact they were the opposite. But, also like you, even though the storms shook the boat a little, my faith was strong enough by this time to hang on to God and to accept that other human beings are fallible, just as I am. We can't all be examples of Christ all the time, but I certainly see being a loving example as something to strive towards.

Corapi was a good teacher, I liked how he taught, he appeared to lead by the best of examples, but he fell. Anyway I'm glad we agree, we should all lead by example. I'm just concerned that we can make too much of that. Because we are fallen, we will always make mistakes and always sin as long as we are alive upon the Earth. ​

[AccountDeleted]

I'm not even sure that he actually said what he is quoted as saying. Apparently it's from a secondary source, and I've heard it interpreted different ways. For example sometimes it is written "I don't like your Christianity" rather than "Christians". Source: http://message.snopes.com/showthread.php?t=61900

Whether or not Ghandi actually said it Christ was indeed a stumbling block for him.

I regard Jesus as a great teacher of humanity, but I do not regard him as the only begotten son of God. That epithet in its material interpretation is quite unacceptable. Metaphorically we are all sons of God, but for each of us there may be different sons of God in a special sense. Thus for me Chaitanya may be the only begotten son of God … God cannot be the exclusive Father and I cannot ascribe exclusive divinity to Jesus.”
[Ghandi in the Harijan Journal: June 3, 1937]  Source:  http://www.lutheranlayman.com/2014/02/no-mahatma-gandhi-did-not-like-our.html

Corapi was a good teacher, I liked how he taught, he appeared to lead by the best of examples, but he fell. Anyway I'm glad we agree, we should all lead by example. I'm just concerned that we can make too much of that. Because we are fallen, we will always make mistakes and always sin as long as we are alive upon the Earth. ​

​As for Ghandi, there's no point arguing about what he said if we aren't even sure what it was that he said  

And I agree with the we are fallen part... that's what loving Jesus so beautiful, and knowing that He loves me too. Amazing.

[truthfinder]

I suspected, Historian, that it was you, but wanted to be sure. As for the argument about making sermons extra liturgical, I really don't think it can hold water as I've said due to the teachings of both Lateran and Trent. There ought to be more preaching done outside Mass, but preaching inside Mass, especially on Sundays, is necessary  and should be considered by all an extension of the worshiping nature of the liturgy. As for weekday Masses, I'm not too concerned if there's preaching or not. 

[AccountDeleted]

I suspected, Historian, that it was you, but wanted to be sure. As for the argument about making sermons extra liturgical, I really don't think it can hold water as I've said due to the teachings of both Lateran and Trent. There ought to be more preaching done outside Mass, but preaching inside Mass, especially on Sundays, is necessary  and should be considered by all an extension of the worshiping nature of the liturgy. As for weekday Masses, I'm not too concerned if there's preaching or not. 

Most of the weekday Masses I have attended have had no homily, except for when I was in the convent and then the priest would usually give a very short one based on the readings. I found the weekday ones without homilies very focusing for me.

[KnightofChrist]

​As for Ghandi, there's no point arguing about what he said if we aren't even sure what it was that he said  

And I agree with the we are fallen part... that's what loving Jesus so beautiful, and knowing that He loves me too. Amazing.

​For me this is simply a discussion, not an argument.  Whether or not he said it wouldn't necessarily effect whether or not the statement is judgmental in nature. But more importantly, whether or not he actually said what he is quoted as saying is of great importance. If he did not make that statement I suppose the words could still be used to make the point Christians, not Christ can be an stumbling block for unbelievers. If he did not, he should not be quoted as making that statement. However, if he did should his statement be used to make the point that Christians, not Christ can be an stumbling block to unbelievers? I really don't believe so because he makes it clear in other statements that Christ was indeed the great stumbling block for him. Namely Christ' divinity, and personhood as the Son of God.

[AccountDeleted]

​For me this is simply a discussion, not an argument.  Whether or not he said it wouldn't necessarily effect whether or not the statement is judgmental in nature. But more importantly whether or not he actually said what he is quoted as saying is of great importance. If he did not make that statement I suppose the words could still be used to make the point Christians, not Christ can be an stumbling block for unbelievers. And if he did not he should not be quoted as making that statement. However if he did should his statement be used to make the point that Christians, not Christ can be an stumbling block to unbelievers? I really don't believe so because he makes it clear in other statements that Christ was indeed the great stumbling block for him. Namely Christ' divinity, and personhood as the Son of God.

I didn't mean that we were arguing, simply that anyone arguing (or even discussing) Ghandi's beliefs gets harder when we can't even agree on what he actually said. 

​And yes, it is quite possible that Christ's divinity was a stumbling block for him. That doesn't mean that it had to remain that way forever, even though, unfortunately it did. I was raised agnostic and God Himself was a stumbling block for me. Then, even though I admired and respected Christ's teachings, His divinity was a stumbling block for me too. The bible was one of my biggest stumbling blocks! In fact, during my instruction period, there were a lot of misconceptions that I had to overcome and a lot of things that had to be explained to me. But I never would have gotten to that point of even wanting to know and to persevere if I hadn't first been impressed by those nuns I saw actually living the teachings of Christ. I wanted to be more like them - their goodness and their humanity and their love for others. Their love for God was there but I wasn't relating to that in the beginning because God didn't mean much to me then except as an abstract impersonal force.

I just don't think that cradle Catholics can have any concept of how difficult it can be for a non believer to make it across the great divide. It all seems so clear to a person raised in the Catholic faith - everything is black and white it seems and one whiff of the liturgy or the sacraments will make a believer. But for some of us, it hasn't been that way, and only the grace of God, and the example of His good and faithful servants has made it possible to embrace a lot of things that Catholics take for granted. It might be my opinion, but it is also my experience. Maybe Ghandi was prejudiced and would never have made it even with really good examples in front of him all the time, but he's not the only person to find it difficult to reconcile Christ's teachings with some of His followers.

I love the liturgy and the sacraments, but I wouldn't be at that point without the living examples making me wonder how they got that way. So which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Maybe for some people it's the liturgy first, and then they are able to live the example. For me, it was seeing the examples first and then discovering where they got their strength. It all worked - God's plan.

[CrossCuT]

I think Ghandi was certainly generalizing here, just as we often generalize about Muslims. Perhaps he had had some bad experiences with Christians, I don't know, but the sentiment of the statement (for me) is that Christ isn't the stumbling block for a lot of people, the behavior of Christians is. But whether a person takes offense at his words or not, I still think there is something to learn from them.

And you make a very good point in terms of not buying into 'personality cults'. But when I say an example of Christ, I don't mean that you should blindly follow someone you think is holier than you are. I am referring to actually seeing the love of Christ in another human being and allowing that example to guide you towards the faith. It might be a subtle difference, but it is a difference.

You state that you were led back to the faith, so perhaps that person actually was a good example of Christ at one time? Or perhaps you were misled by words, because Corapi certainly was a very powerful speaker, and very charismatic. In either case, you were strong enough in the faith by the time he had his 'fall' that you were able to hang on. 

My example was initially Mother Teresa of Calcutta and then the nuns of her community that I worked with every day for months. I saw Christ in them, in their service to the poor and the lonely and the alcoholics at the center where I worked with them. If Mother Teresa had turned out to have feet of clay, then yes, it would have been sad, but I wasn't following her because of her personality or her words but because of her actions that spoke louder than any words she could have said. And I do give her credit for my initial interest in Catholicism, but the hard work was up to me, and the grace was God's.

Like you, I have also had disappointments in people who should have been good examples of Christ but who weren't - in fact they were the opposite. But, also like you, even though the storms shook the boat a little, my faith was strong enough by this time to hang on to God and to accept that other human beings are fallible, just as I am. We can't all be examples of Christ all the time, but I certainly see being a loving example as something to strive towards.

 

​Just in reference to this topic, I was lead away from Catholicism by Catholics. I still think Jesus, the saints, Mary, and what the church stands for is the bees knees...I just cant Identify with the general populous that follows it. I cant say all Catholics are like that, but I have run into it so much that it perturbs me to a point where I have to distance myself from it if I want any sort of a spiritual life. Id end up completely hating everything about faith if I kept trying to hold on. 

In response people usually say "Youre just not trying hard enough" or "You dont really mean it" or "You were never good enough in the first place."

Those were quotes from Catholics directed at me during my spiritual turmoil. (from church militants from this site) Needless to say it didnt help.

[Credo in Deum]

​Just in reference to this topic, I was lead away from Catholicism by Catholics. I still think Jesus, the saints, Mary, and what the church stands for is the bees knees...I just cant Identify with the general populous that follows it. I cant say all Catholics are like that, but I have run into it so much that it perturbs me to a point where I have to distance myself from it if I want any sort of a spiritual life. Id end up completely hating everything about faith if I kept trying to hold on. 

In response people usually say "Youre just not trying hard enough" or "You dont really mean it" or "You were never good enough in the first place."

Those were quotes from Catholics directed at me during my spiritual turmoil. (from church militants from this site) Needless to say it didnt help.

So you agree with all of the doctrines of the faith and accept everything the Church teaches on faith and morals, correct?

[CrossCuT]

So you agree with all of the doctrines of the faith and accept everything the Church teaches on faith and morals, correct?

Im not interested in discussing my current spirtual life or relationship with the church in public on this site because it is personal and people are jerks. If you are honestly curious, send me a PM. But I have a feeling youre more interested in putting me up as a spectacle and using my experiences as reasons to condemn me.

[puellapaschalis]

 

I just don't think that cradle Catholics can have any concept of how difficult it can be for a non believer to make it across the great divide. 

 

Your words here do an enormous discredit to the sufferings many cradle Catholics endure. 'Converts' do not have the monopoly on struggles with faith. Being 'brought up in Catholicism' is never a guarantee that things are 'black and white,' nor is it a guarantee against apostasy.