Charleston Shooting Suspect (Derailed: Confederate Flag Debate)

[Ice_nine]

It's not their symbol - why would they define it?

I thought it was just a flag for southern pride? Does the South not belong to Black people?

It tickles me that you do not see the irony in your statement, probably thinking it was a brilliant rebuttal.

[Didacus]

My mistake. I didn't know the south belonged to black people. I suppose the evil whites all need to line up and get out of there? Will they be allowed to visit on occasion?

[Ice_nine]

another brilliant rebuttal

 

I concede the argument

[Seven77]

It's not their symbol - why would they define it?

It's not your country's affair - why should you continue to have a say/troll in it?

[Lilllabettt]

It's not their symbol - why would they define it?

so what you're saying is, the confederate flag is a symbol of the white race.

thanks for clearing that up.

it makes perfect sense.

the confederate flag is a symbol of "southern heritage" which is a euphemism for white pride. As Didacus points out , why would black people be involved in defining it. It belongs to the white race.

 

[BG45]

The most interesting thing to me about this debate, is the thoughts of one of the men frequently invoked in it.  General Robert E. Lee, no matter your opinion on the Confederacy, is widely regarded as a gentleman and good General, widely respected by both sides during the Civil War (and was even offered command of the Union armies).  After the end of the Civil War, he became President of Washington College (now Washington and Lee)...and he didn't allow this flag on his campus (replicas would be placed above his tomb in the chapel, long after his death).  He saw it as a symbol of division and felt that we were a nation in need of healing.  He opposed the construction of Confederate war memorials due to the reopening of old wounds. And then, at his funeral, he wasn't buried in a Confederate uniform, nor were the men who served under him in any sort of uniform, no flags such as this one would fly above the funeral procession.  No matter what opinion he may have held in secret, in public, he always held firm to promoting the healing of our nation. 

[Didacus]

BG45: that is one of the few points of view I find has legitimate respect and contains real substance. I respect the content, although I agree with everything I do respect.  

[Didacus]

*what I meant above was that I respect the point of view even though I do not out right share it.  

 

Not easy using these phone-things to post sometimes.  

[Socrates]

The most interesting thing to me about this debate, is the thoughts of one of the men frequently invoked in it.  General Robert E. Lee, no matter your opinion on the Confederacy, is widely regarded as a gentleman and good General, widely respected by both sides during the Civil War (and was even offered command of the Union armies).  After the end of the Civil War, he became President of Washington College (now Washington and Lee)...and he didn't allow this flag on his campus (replicas would be placed above his tomb in the chapel, long after his death).  He saw it as a symbol of division and felt that we were a nation in need of healing.  He opposed the construction of Confederate war memorials due to the reopening of old wounds. And then, at his funeral, he wasn't buried in a Confederate uniform, nor were the men who served under him in any sort of uniform, no flags such as this one would fly above the funeral procession.  No matter what opinion he may have held in secret, in public, he always held firm to promoting the healing of our nation. 

Neither did Gen. Lee run around trashing and denigrating the character of his former Confederate comrades in arms, or demand that their memory be reviled or blotted out in shame.

Does the current aggressive push to remove all traces of Confederate imagery from public commerce, digging up graves, demands to destroy existing monuments, and the comparison to Nazis and such, do anything at all to promote healing and end division, or does it rather do the opposite?

 

the confederate flag is a symbol of "southern heritage" which is a euphemism for white pride.

Well, well, well.

I suppose all us dumb Southern hicks should be real grateful we've finally got a smart Yankee to explain to us what the flag really means to us.

[Lilllabettt]

 

Well, well, well.

I suppose all us dumb Southern hicks should be real grateful we've finally got a smart Yankee to explain to us what the flag really means to us.

Who is "us."  The us you are referring to is the white people of the South.

If the Confederate flag is not a symbol of white culture, but of just "the South," then how come black southerners don't get to help decide what the flag symbolizes? They are Southerners aren't they? Shouldn't they also be experts on what "southern heritage" is?

You have to get this. A black southerner's idea of "southern heritage" is going to be a lot different from a white hick's idea of "southern heritage." Black people in the south do not look back at southern history and  see the "good ol' days." They see the "bad ol' days." White people remember dime stores, sweet tea, and genteel tradition. Black people remember that great grandma was born a slave and great grandpa hung from a tree. That's the black person's "southern heritage." 

None of this is news to South Carolina. Everyone there was well aware that whenever a black citizen looked up at the state house they would see a reminder of a time when they were considered property. Everyone knew. The truth is, white people with the power and money didn't care enough to give up their cherished traditions just because that tradition was a daily experience of degradation and disrespect to another poor, less powerful section of the population.

Then that white southern hick killed all those black Christians in church, and the survivors forgave him instantly. And that was the key ingredient right there. The magnanimity of their compassion made all those white people aware of how stingy they had been.

I think it is sad that a white southerner had to murder a bunch of black southerners, and the black southerners had to forgive him, before black citizens' interpretation of the symbol was taken seriously. 

But that's what it was. Forgiveness shamed them all.

 

[Ice_nine]

PREACH

[Peace]

That was kind of impressive Lillabettt. You need to write for The Atlantic or something.

[KnightofChrist]

Phatmass is not the place to have a rational historically based discussion about this topic. All that matters for those against the Flag is the stereotypical and tunnel vision view of the Civil War. The North were saints and holy crusaders fighting a bunch of wicked demon Southerners who were all bent on enslaving a whole race and there was nothing else but that. That's what the Media and the US educational system teaches so it's really no surprise many hold such views. 
Attempts to broaden the historical facts and causes of the war have proven pointless. The other causes do not matter, even if those causes were greater than slavery. Nor does it matter that many of those that fought for the South did not fight for Slavery but to defend their loved ones and their homeland. All that matters is that the flag is racist. All that matters is the one-sided historically incomplete view point of flag and the war.

I also don't buy that because one is African-American one is naturally against the Flag and sees it as racist. I live in a African-American neighborhood, the vast majority of my friends in real life are African-American. While I'm sure some dislike it I assume that, because in discussions I've had with them and discussions I've observed about the Flag, none of them really seem to care one way or another about the Flag, even quite a few do see it as heritage or so they say. Even some use it or display it, one uses a blanket that looks like a Confederate flag which he sleeps with or uses as a couch cover, another has a Confederate flag shirt that he wears, and another displays the Flag on his Facebook profile. I'm sure others have observed different view points and that is fine. My point is Phatmass in this discussion doesn't seem to represent real life. It seems to represent a one-side point of view. Real life is far more complex both historically and presently, a complexity that has often been denied in this discussion because only one point of view seems to matter. No pun intended but real life is not so black and white.

[Peace]

Phatmass is not the place to have a rational historically based discussion about this topic. All that matters for those against the Flag is the stereotypical and tunnel vision view of the Civil War. The North were saints and holy crusaders fighting a bunch of wicked demon Southerners who were all bent on enslaving a whole race and there was nothing else but that. That's what the Media and the US educational system teaches so it's really no surprise many hold such views. 
Attempts to broaden the historical facts and causes of the war have proven pointless. The other causes do not matter, even if those causes were greater than slavery. Nor does it matter that many of those that fought for the South did not fight for Slavery but to defend their loved ones and their homeland. All that matters is that the flag is racist. All that matters is the one-sided historically incomplete view point of flag and the war.

Well. It seems to me that there are several possibilities.  1) People who disagree with your position have tunnel vision, as you assert.  2) Your assertions are correct but you have not sufficiently advocated for them. 3) Your assertions are wrong.

People here have rationally discussed your assertions. The fact that they do not agree with your conclusions does not necessarily mean that (1) follows.

And I do not think that many people here (or in other places) have asserted that the "North were saints" and that the South were a bunch of wicked demons. And no one has said anything to the effect that all that matters is that the flag is racist. This seems to be a figment of your imagination, but I can understand how things might seem that way to you if you are frustrated. When I cannot convince people of my arguments, I often jump to the conclusion that they are simply narrow-minded. It happens to all of us I guess.

I would think that if you are frustrated at the fact that others have not come to share your viewpoint, it would be more effective to focus on improving your arguments rather than accusing people of tunnel vision. I do not see how that is going solve anything, but I suppose it helps you vent some frustration.

I also don't buy that because one is African-American one is naturally against the Flag and sees it as racist. I live in a African-American neighborhood, the vast majority of my friends in real life are African-American. While I'm sure some dislike it I assume that, because in discussions I've had with them and discussions I've observed about the Flag, none of them really seem to care one way or another about the Flag, even quite a few do see it as heritage or so they say. Even some use it or display it, one uses a blanket that looks like a Confederate flag which he sleeps with or uses as a couch cover, another has a Confederate flag shirt that he wears, and another displays the Flag on his Facebook profile. I'm sure others have observed different view points and that is fine. My point is Phatmass in this discussion doesn't seem to represent real life. It seems to represent a one-side point of view. Real life is far more complex both historically and presently, a complexity that has often been denied in this discussion because only one point of view seems to matter. No pun intended but real life is not so black and white.

Ah. The old I Know a Negro Who Flies a Confederate Flag Argument. I think one of the other posters here already posted a link that indicates that about 75% of African Americans find the flag to be offensive. I also believe that it has also primarily been the voice of African Americans over the past few decades who have protested against the flag. So I disagree with your conclusion. Call it tunnel-vision if you will.

[KnightofChrist]

 

 

Well. It seems to me that there are several possibilities.  1) People who disagree with your position have tunnel vision, as you assert.  2) Your assertions are correct but you have not sufficiently advocated for them. 3) Your assertions are wrong.

People here have rationally discussed your assertions. The fact that they do not agree with your conclusions does not necessarily mean that (1) follows.

And I do not think that many people here (or in other places) have asserted that the "North were saints" and that the South were a bunch of wicked demons. And no one has said anything to the effect that all that matters is that the flag is racist. This seems to be a figment of your imagination, but I can understand how things might seem that way to you if you are frustrated. When I cannot convince people of my arguments, I often jump to the conclusion that they are simply narrow-minded. It happens to all of us I guess.

Hyperbolic sarcasm of the other side's position yes. But no I don't believe the full historical facts make a dang bit of difference because the Flag is racist that's all that really matters. The highly simplistic "that's racist" or "most think it's racist so it's racist" has been the foundation argument of the other side throughout this discussion. It reminds me of trying to have discussions with those who are in favor of homosexual unions. Any argument against no matter how well thought out and back up by facts is reduced down to "that's homophobic" or "that's bigoted" or "whatever it is bigoted to be against gay marriage."

I would think that if you are frustrated at the fact that others have not come to share your viewpoint, it would be more effective to focus on improving your arguments rather than accusing people of tunnel vision. I do not see how that is going solve anything, but I suppose it helps you vent some frustration.

Ah. The old I Know a Negro Who Flies a Confederate Flag Argument. I think one of the other posters here already posted a link that indicates that about 75% of African Americans find the flag to be offensive. I also believe that it has also primarily been the voice of African Americans over the past few decades who have protested against the flag. So I disagree with your conclusion. Call it tunnel-vision if you will.

You continue to judge others on the pigmentation of skin color. I merely pointed out that life is far more complex than this discussion has focused upon and yes I used real life examples of my friends. Real life examples that show life is not as simple as it may seem. Yet you reduce it down to a simplistic "I know a black person that..." and dismissing it out of hand because of my skin pigmentation. Which does go right along with what I said about tunnel vision.