Paphnutius Posted April 18, 2005 Posted April 18, 2005 Perhaps I misunderstood then. I thought you were stating that God called us to overcome concupisence as much as we can, but does not offer grace. I thought you were making a claim that God leaves people to their struggles but calls them to something above their nature. My apologies.
JP2Iloveyou Posted April 18, 2005 Posted April 18, 2005 Another thing that is important to keep in mind is that masturbation is not wrong because it feels good. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Catholics don't want anyone to experience pleasure. On the contrary, sexual pleasure is a good end of the sexual act. The Catholic view of sex teaches that it has two ends: unitive and procreative. This is why the Church teaches that only married couples may have intercourse. If sex were only for union, anyone could have sex. If it were only for procreation, the Church would support polygamy. Neither of these are morally acceptable. Because masturbation is neither open to life nor bonding the union created in marriage between husband and wife, it is wrong.
Melchisedec Posted April 18, 2005 Posted April 18, 2005 [quote name='Paphnutius' date='Apr 18 2005, 02:05 PM'] Perhaps I misunderstood then. I thought you were stating that God called us to overcome concupisence as much as we can, but does not offer grace. I thought you were making a claim that God leaves people to their struggles but calls them to something above their nature. My apologies. [/quote] Thats what I get when I try to argue as a theist
Brother Adam Posted April 18, 2005 Posted April 18, 2005 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Apr 18 2005, 03:08 PM'] Another thing that is important to keep in mind is that masturbation is not wrong because it feels good. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Catholics don't want anyone to experience pleasure. On the contrary, sexual pleasure is a good end of the sexual act. The Catholic view of sex teaches that it has two ends: unitive and procreative. This is why the Church teaches that only married couples may have intercourse. If sex were only for union, anyone could have sex. If it were only for procreation, the Church would support polygamy. Neither of these are morally acceptable. Because masturbation is neither open to life nor bonding the union created in marriage between husband and wife, it is wrong. [/quote] :thumb:
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 18, 2005 Posted April 18, 2005 [quote name='Melchisedec' date='Apr 18 2005, 03:15 PM'] Thats what I get when I try to argue as a theist [/quote] There's an easy cure...become a real theist and it will come naturally...
Briguy Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 What scripture does the CC base its opinion of masturbation on? - Brian
Phazzan Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 Some people say it's selfish? Probably... SO WHAT? :angry: I personally don't see anything wrong with it, other than it might entice someone into more sexual deviancy, like porno and more porno.
Phazzan Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 19 2005, 07:41 AM'] Its not unitive or procreative. [/quote] How is it wrong though? I don't want your god bothering arguements, but just because something that acheives pleasure and satisfaction doesn't have to have an ultimate purpose. Masturbation could be warm up for the big league. Staring at womens breasts (I do that a lot) is said to be healthy. We are sexual beings after all, and it's important to keep emenating our testicular "resources" so they keep supplying us with new "fish", so to speak.
Brother Adam Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 I hadn't thought of that before, in a direct way. But it is completely true. Everything about contraception denies unity in a marriage as well as procreation. The husband and wife refuse to love each other at St. Paul commends them too. They withhold all of themselves and thus aren't experiencing unity as God meant them to. It denies every single passage on marriage and intercourse.
cmotherofpirl Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 FISH????? I always knew my children were evil spawn i
homeschoolmom Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 [quote name='Phazzan' date='Apr 19 2005, 07:53 AM'] We are sexual beings after all, and it's important to keep emenating our testicular "resources" so they keep supplying us with new "fish", so to speak. [/quote]
jasJis Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 [quote name='Phazzan' date='Apr 19 2005, 07:46 AM'] Some people say it's selfish? Probably... SO WHAT? :angry: I personally don't see anything wrong with it, other than it might entice someone into more sexual deviancy, like porno and more porno. [/quote] Phazzan, What's wrong with being 'selfish'? It's selfish, so it's limited. Catholic sex is the best sex because ultimately it is centered on complete giving of yourself to the other person for love, pleasure, and openess to new life. Self gratifying sex is selfish and is ultimately not as satisfying as intimate sex with someone you really love. Really, really, good sex is connecting spiritually as well as physically. Ask any happily married couple who has a good sex life after 5 years of marriage. Most sexual dysfunctions are a result of inability to communicate and difficulty with performance anxiety. At it's core, self stimulation for selfish pleasure is dysfuntional. And the human male doesn't need frequent rejuvination of their resources to keep fresh 'fish'. Any specialist in male fertility will tell a man that frequency will diminsh quality and quantity of fresh fish.
homeschoolmom Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 could we please stop refering to "fresh fish"? :crackup:
Phazzan Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 [quote name='jasJis' date='Apr 19 2005, 08:08 AM'] Phazzan, What's wrong with being 'selfish'? It's selfish, so it's limited. Catholic sex is the best sex because ultimately it is centered on complete giving of yourself to the other person for love, pleasure, and openess to new life. Self gratifying sex is selfish and is ultimately not as satisfying as intimate sex with someone you really love. Really, really, good sex is connecting spiritually as well as physically. Ask any happily married couple who has a good sex life after 5 years of marriage. Most sexual dysfunctions are a result of inability to communicate and difficulty with performance anxiety. At it's core, self stimulation for selfish pleasure is dysfuntional. And the human male doesn't need frequent rejuvination of their resources to keep fresh 'fish'. Any specialist in male fertility will tell a man that frequency will diminsh quality and quantity of fresh fish. [/quote] So what? You've explained to me how Catholic sex is better, and it may be, but how does that make non-Catholic, "evil", selfish sex wrong? Human beings are fundmentally selfish beings. That's the way nature programmed us, and whether we like to admit it or not, we always put ourselves first. Basturmation keeps us sexually active, even when we're not (nudge nudge, ). Do you really think your future wife would care if you have a little fun with yourself every now and then? Will she go "oh, are you cheating on me with Miss Parmer again, jasis?". "How dare you! :angry: I'm getting a divorce!" I can't see how it's selfish, and I can't for the life of me see how it's evil, except for God says so.
Kilroy the Ninja Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 I believe jasJis is married. Let's try not to get too personal here with the references.
jasJis Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 Phazzan, I'll answer and pretend you are mature enough. Self stimulating of self instead of with your spouse is selfish. Self stimulation of yourself when you are single develops and reinforces a habit that is selfish and dysfunctional when you do have a relationship with another. If you read my entire post, you would have seen how I stated that masturbation does lead to self-centered sex and self-senteredness in sexual relationships contribute to poor communication and performance anxiety which is the root of most sexual dysfunction. That has nothing to do with God or religion. It's applied practical and mature thinking. Playboy or Penthouse shouldn't be your only 'scientific' source about sex. Humanity can be selfish, but we are also naturally altruistic and do what needs to be done for our spouse or children. A natural instinct that is shared with other creatures, except humanity is more developed. Since you're not married and have not enjoyed years of sexual intimacy with another, you haven't a clue about reality. Your wife will be ticked the first time she wants sex and you don't and she knows you've been busy with 'Miss Parmer' (as you so childishly put it). It will cause a problem.
Phazzan Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 Relax jasjis, you old geezer. Selfish sex, selfless sex, it's all about the same thing... spreading your genes. You can have your superior sex life, at least I'm staying sane.
Carrie Posted April 19, 2005 Posted April 19, 2005 [quote name='Phazzan' date='Apr 19 2005, 10:52 AM'] Do you really think your future wife would care if you have a little fun with yourself every now and then? Will she go "oh, are you cheating on me with Miss Parmer again, jasis?". "How dare you! :angry: I'm getting a divorce!" [/quote] Actually, the issue of masturbation and pornography can be incredibly damaging to a marriage. I know a couple who did get a divorce because of it. It's not a light matter.
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