Masturbation

[return2truth]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 22 2005, 12:26 PM'] why do you think it is for contraception alone? Couldnt it apply to both? [/quote]
It could if he was shown to be masturbating, but he wasn't. He was having sex and like a great many men of today, pulled out at the last second to keep his sister-in-law from getting pregnant. God specifically told Onan to get his brother's wife pregnant, instead he had sex with her for the sake of having sex. That is why God punished him.

[return2truth]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 22 2005, 12:34 PM']
HOwever, this does not mean that you should still masturbate while seeking to follow Jesus. You need to resist that as much as possible as well. [/quote]
When I began to pray the Rosary as an aid to help me overcome my addiction, I still gave into it a few times. Afterwords, I felt like I had betrayed what little grace of self-control I had been given and considered abandoning my attempts at reconciling my catholic faith.

But I kept praying. The Holy Spirit had given me faith and I wasn't about to waste it.

I may yet still give in again, but I will not give up the faith. It has given me the strength that has gotten me this far. Faith truly is like a mustard seed; it needs only a little care for it to grow strong and true.

[return2truth]

[quote name='return2truth' date='Apr 22 2005, 12:41 PM'] ...like a great many men of today, pulled out at the last second to keep his sister-in-law from getting pregnant... [/quote]
I didn't mean to imply that many men of today have sex with their sisters-in-law, but that they pull out during sex. I hope that clearly things up.

[homeschoolmom]

:leave:

[Jaime]

[quote]God specifically told Onan to get his brother's wife pregnant, instead he had sex with her for the sake of having sex. That is why God punished him.[/quote]

Actually there are arguments that Onan's sin was one (or all) of three. He was commanded by God (and by Jewish law) to take his dead brother's wife as his own, which he was happy to do. By law, all of his dead brother's land and livestock now belonged to him. The only way he would lose possession of the land was if his brother's wife had a son. Then it would all be transferred to that son.

By "not fullfilling" his requirements (euphemism for homeschoolmom) he was in fact stealing his brother's land.

So you have the argument that his sin was one of masturbation, contraception, or thievery. (or any combination of the three)

[jezic]

what part if the Bible is that story from?

[return2truth]

[quote name='jezic' date='Apr 22 2005, 02:06 PM'] what part if the Bible is that story from? [/quote]
Genesis 38:7-10

[jezic]

ohh i see. I am so bored reading genesis. At the present time it is near impossible. I don't like most of the OT history but the NT is cool.

wow that is way off topic but i think the main here is conversed out

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 22 2005, 11:21 AM'] Good call.  I'll remember that argument. [/quote]
Yeah, that Holy Spirit is very generous. I actually wrote it down myself since I had never heard the argument before either.

God Bless

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Just a few questions:

If masturbation is so natural and what God intended (since the argument seems to be that it is not a sin) then why, after creating Adam did He say that it is not good for man to be alone?

If man were sufficient of himself, why was there the need to create Eve?

Furthermore, if Adam and Eve were sufficient of themselves, why did God give them the command to be "fruitful and multiply?"

God Bless[/quote]

I don't see what Eve has to do with masturbation. It's not good for man to be alone, but that doesn't mean [color=red] adults can't masturbate. Edited because we use adult words here [/color]. No one said that masturbation makes man sufficient of himself and there's no way to imply that. God's command to be fruitful and multiply doesn't have anything to do with stopping people from jerking off as long as they're not stopping reproducing. Especially given the way soceity is set up where people are unnaturally monogamous and in the meantime single, masturbation is nice a way to offset that.

It all comes down to you say it's bad just because and we say it's okay just because. But I'll note again that neither compelte abstinence or excess has ever rendered and man happy. Also, it's all about being master of your own domain... that is as long as you're doing it and in control and it's not in control of you then it's okay. Just like food or anything else. Masturbation is something that you should give up for lent even if you're not a catholic to see ensure that you're in good shape. Giving stuff up for lent or for whatever is good and I don't hafta be catholic to realize that, but anyway.

Edited April 23, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[cmotherofpirl]

Gods command IS to be fruitful and mutiply and masturbation does neither. It is a sin and until the sexual revolt ALL churches and communities considered a sin.
So saying its NOT a sin is a man-made protestant tradition and contrary to the laws of God.

By saying its not harmful until it controls you shows you admit its an addiction. Food we need to live, self-stimulation we do not.

[Paphnutius]

OK I know I am jumping into the middle of a heated fight without reading the entire thread, so if I repeat anything already said just disregard me as usual.

I think that we must first link masturbation with what it is, a sexual act. It is a sexual act without a partner, that is your are self-stimulating part of you that is used in the act of sex without another person there. The act of sex as repeated many times on this forum is for procreation and unity with one's spouse. We do not say that pleasure derived from such an act is wrong, but if pleasure is the primary drive behind it, then yes it is wrong for it is a perversion of the act of unity with a spouse. As humans we were given a special drive and a special way of carrying that out. If one is self-stimulating it is insulting against the act of unity, one of the two purposes of sex. To whom does it unite the person that is masturbating? His/herself. That is a selfish act and flies in the face of sex acting as a unifying act between spouses. It turns all of the focus on the person and that person's physical pleasure. The drive and means used are made explicitly to be given to another through the marriage act. Any other useis indeed a sin for it is a maluse of a gift and focuses on the individual instead of the giving to others. What the person is saying by doing such things is: "I can do this myself, I do not need a partner." It is a very sinful thing to do with part of your body. By what it is, it is inherent in its nature to be used for the purpose of procreation through the marriage act consumating the unity between spouses. That is its nature, any other use offends that.

Masturbation is not needed to survive. There are many Catholics who live very healthy and fulfilling lives as celibates and do not masturbate. They are most commonly found in the priesthood and religous lives.

[Cam42]

[quote]But I'll note again that neither compelte abstinence or excess has ever rendered and man happy.[/quote]

I don't know, I am pretty happy.....

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Apr 23 2005, 02:46 PM']
I don't know, I am pretty happy..... [/quote]
Me too.

[JP2Iloveyou]

Thomas Aquinas says that perfect happiness cannot be found in this life. It can only be found by being in perfect unity with God. Everything in this life, including intercourse, is merely a foreshadowing of the beatific vision. It seems, then, that because masturbation does not foreshadow the union we will hopefully have one day with God, that it does not in fact make you happy, but actually makes you unhappy.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Apr 23 2005, 03:53 AM']
I don't see what Eve has to do with masturbation. It's not good for man to be alone, but that doesn't mean [color=red] adults can't masturbate. Edited because we use adult words here [/color]. No one said that masturbation makes man sufficient of himself and there's no way to imply that. God's command to be fruitful and multiply doesn't have anything to do with stopping people from jerking off as long as they're not stopping reproducing. Especially given the way soceity is set up where people are unnaturally monogamous and in the meantime single, masturbation is nice a way to offset that.

It all comes down to you say it's bad just because and we say it's okay just because. But I'll note again that neither compelte abstinence or excess has ever rendered and man happy. Also, it's all about being master of your own domain... that is as long as you're doing it and in control and it's not in control of you then it's okay. Just like food or anything else. Masturbation is something that you should give up for lent even if you're not a catholic to see ensure that you're in good shape. Giving stuff up for lent or for whatever is good and I don't hafta be catholic to realize that, but anyway. [/quote]
The point of quoting Adam and Eve and the command of God was to place the understanding of masturbation in its correct context. We have been created by God and He gave us many gifts. One of the greatest gifts he gave was our free will, the other gift was our sexuality. In the garden He gave two commands before the fall, 1) Don't eat of the forbidden fruit 2) Be fruitful and multiply. We know what happened in the garden and we know what has resulted ever since.

Our sexuality was given to us with the command to be "fruitful and multiply," yet, after the fall, everything took a toll, even the gift of sexuality. Rather than being exclusively understood as a unitive and thereby conjugal union, when sin entered so did a profound interest in the self. What does sin do? It turns us into ourselves, and we become the center of our own small universe. In essence, we hear echoed the same words the serpent spoke to Eve. "You will be like gods." All sin tries to help us believe, rather falsely, that we too can be God; that we are greater than the Creator and therefore do not need Him.

You say who cares if we masturbate because it is healthy for us and, in the end, in some way, makes us happy. However, I would ask you how you would define happiness, and the length of time that consitutes actually being "happy," because no one is happy all their life. Furthermore, where in the Bible or rather, anywhere, does it say that God just wants us to be happy? Was Jesus happy the night before He died, or did he weep tears of blood, was He laughing on His way to the cross, or when His hands and feet were pierced through for our sins?

It all goes back to the garden, God told us not to do something, because He knows what is better for us. Do we always listen to what He tells us? Of course not. What happens? Are we happy as a result?

God gave us sexuality, as a gift and told us how we are to use that gift: to "be fruitful and multiply." When engaging in masturbation is that truly the way God intended our sexuality to be used? If it were, then, as I tried to illustrate in my point, God would have had no need to create Eve from Adam's rib, someone equal yet different, designed for the other rather than for herself. Masturbation, just as other sexual deviancies, frustrate what God intends for us in our sexuality.

And those that are celibate have been given a gift. God does not give someone something He believes they cannot fulfill. Granted, some may not recognize it as a gift and feel as though they know better what God wants than Him, but God does not give us something expecting us to rely solely upon our own merits. Gifts are given with the hope that they will be received and treasured, not abused or destroyed.

God Bless

[Monoxide]

Everyone carries their own cross, some have to deal with a twitchy sex drive and others lack one. Really, I often refer to masturbation as self-homosexuality, and when you think about it, can be an accurate statement. Parallel sexual evils. There are those who 'arouse' themselves not for pleasure or even pain, just for the sake of doing so so that they may 'fit' in to modern society. This is disgusting. Out of curiousity - are those who fit into this category less responsable than those who do it purely for pleasure? I was asked this recently and couldnt rightly think of an answer other than 'its all bad'.

[return2truth]

[quote name='Monoxide' date='Apr 24 2005, 04:56 PM']Everyone carries their own cross, some have to deal with a twitchy sex drive and others lack one. Really, I often refer to masturbation as self-homosexuality, and when you think about it, can be an accurate statement. Parallel sexual evils. There are those who 'arouse' themselves not for pleasure or even pain, just for the sake of doing so so that they may 'fit' in to modern society. This is disgusting. Out of curiousity - are those who fit into this category less responsable than those who do it purely for pleasure? I was asked this recently and couldnt rightly think of an answer other than 'its all bad'.[/quote]

You raise some interesting points. I can see how they apply to my addiction.

As for those who do it for sake of "fitting in" or because everyone else is doing it, there are different levels of severity to sins. Willfully doing wrong when you know it is wrong is more offensive according to the Catholic church than when ignorance of the sin is involved. Masturbation is only a mortal sin when it is performed with full knowledge of its sinful nature. The same can be said for all mortal sins (Catechism 1859). The severity of mastubation as a mortal sin can be effected by immaturity, force of aquired habit, or other psychological or social factor (Catechism 2352). Venial sins do not need to be confessed, but it is highly recommened that they are (Catechism 1458). If not the eating of the Eucharist will expunge unforgiven venial sins (Catechism 1394).

[Monoxide]

Im glad you could relate to part of my post, it was all to common in my high-school years for people to pressure others into doing immoral and illogical things for the sole reason of so that they themselves would not feel so guilty. I am saddened to hear that my school wasn't an isolated case, but it is good to know that the victims are not alone.

[Briguy]

Hi Cam42, Still waiting for your reply to the one line of discussion we were having. Hope you are well!

In Christ,
Brian