Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 21, 2005 Posted April 21, 2005 [quote name='001' date='Apr 21 2005, 03:44 PM'] It's really just harmless fun. [/quote] Hardly harmless and hardly fun. "The human body is an excellent servant and a terrible master." -Dr. Jonathon Reyes
infinitelord1 Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 i know its wrong, but man this is a hard one to give up.
Cam42 Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 Now that the masturbation debate has gone on for four pages, when do we start talking about the Nazis? Because EVERY SINGLE theological discussion has masturbation and the Nazis in it at some point. :rotfl:
Briguy Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 infinite, If you are sure M. is wrong then you should not be doing it. You need to think about why you feel it is wrong. If it causes Sin in your life, then it is wrong. If you feel it is wrong, "just because" then you should think deeply about that. I said before I just cannot see M in and of itself as wrong. M is not mentioned in the Bible. Fornication and Adultery deal with a sexual act between two people. Let us not make more of something then we should or make something into what it is not. -Brian
Briguy Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 Cam writes: """Masturbation does lead to other things that are bad, because it attacks chastity. It can be argued that masturbation can lead to more serious sexual deviancy. Because masturbation is a psychological action as well as physical one, when one becomes addicted, he will eventually want to act out on those fantasies. He has sinned precisely because he has thoughts are not chaste AND has acted upon them. The action is the masturbation. That is the sinful act. Therefore there is no separation between the action and the sin, but there can be separation between the thought and the sin. And to use your allegory about chocolate.....having sex is not wrong, but having sex with someone that you are not married to is, even if it is with yourself""" Cam, what you write is a decent argument. However, it is based on assumptions. It assumes that M is bad from the start and so naturally there is a progression to something even worse. It assumes that the deviant person is not already deviant but becomes that way through the M. The fact is that the person who goes on to heavy porn, adultery, rape is headed in that direction for one of two reasons. They are mentally sick. They have a chemical or brain defect. OR they are open to satanic influences (controlled by evil). M is not known to be the root cause of deviant behavior in males. Frankly, because most guys do it and only a very very small percent become deviants. The statistics could not be anymore against your theory, as good as your theory sounds. Doctrines or teachings are sometimes not supported by reality, even though we wish they were. This may sound funny but deviants are deviants because they are deviants. They are not so because they acted on a natural drive. I will let you respond before I go on. Thanks for the appropriate discussion on a very tricky subject to talk about. God's blessings to you Cam! In Christ, Brian
cmotherofpirl Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 22 2005, 01:07 AM'] i know its wrong, but man this is a hard one to give up. [/quote] Yep. Are you in charge of your body or are you its slave?
Theologian in Training Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 Just a few questions: If masturbation is so natural and what God intended (since the argument seems to be that it is not a sin) then why, after creating Adam did He say that it is not good for man to be alone? If man were sufficient of himself, why was there the need to create Eve? Furthermore, if Adam and Eve were sufficient of themselves, why did God give them the command to be "fruitful and multiply?" God Bless
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='Theologian in Training' date='Apr 22 2005, 10:18 AM'] Just a few questions: If masturbation is so natural and what God intended (since the argument seems to be that it is not a sin) then why, after creating Adam did He say that it is not good for man to be alone? If man were sufficient of himself, why was there the need to create Eve? Furthermore, if Adam and Eve were sufficient of themselves, why did God give them the command to be "fruitful and multiply?" God Bless [/quote] Good call. I'll remember that argument.
return2truth Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 I am a 31 year old former catholic to new-ager who, since the passing of Pope John Paul the Great, has been feeling a strong call to return to the church. I have found this web site to particullarly insightful. One of the BIGGEST obstacles I am facing is my addiction to masturbation. I have indulged in this practice on average once a day, every day for the last seventeen years. Having lived and accepted the relativist ideology that ALL paths have their elements of truth, I felt obliged to do whatever felt good for me. As long as no one else was harmed, I was free to do whatever it was I wanted to do. I have never done illegal drugs. I rarely drink, and have only been drunk twice. I have lived what seemed to me to be a moral life, at least to all outward appearences. I understand the Church's position of sexual gratification outside of the union of marriage. I agree with it. I am not going to debate that issue. I also understand all of the justifications people use to excuse the continued use of such practices outside of the sacred marital union. I know that sex is fun and it feels really good. The euphoria caused by an orgasm is one of the most power and seductive forces imaginable and thanks to masturbation it is [i]always[/i] just a few inches and minutes away, and free of charge. That is one of the reasons it so easy to justify its continuance in our lives. We indulge our tastes when we need to do so: eating the things we enjoy and not just for nutritional purposes, so why not give into our other biological impulses when they occur, especially when it is so easy to do? If God truly forbade it shouldn't our reproductive parts be only accessible by others? No! He wanted us to touch ourselves. Yes... that's right!...It is stupid to think He wouldn't want us to enjoy the body he has given me. I'll be right back, excuse me while I go and ... What a feeling; it hit me like thunder. Not an orgasm. But an idea. In the depths of my masturbation, I realzied that I couldn't care less about God. It felt so good I could only think about the [i]now[/i], the pleasure, the intense release that would soon come. Then the thought... "where is God right now?" I didn't care. I didn't care. And I stopped. My body ached, but my heart ached more. "How is this celebrating you, my Lord?" I looked down at my body, "what are my eyes currently adoring?" "I can only have one master." I put myself back into my pants and sighed, "this isn't going to be easy." I haven't had an orgasm now for five days. What has helped me is the idea that I am not repressing my desires, but choosing to put our Lord first. I want to love God more than myself and this is a very effective way for me to do so. For the person I was, it has been an incredulous sacrifice; for the person I am becoming, it has become a pledge. I pray the Rosary every night. Bishop Hugh Doyle once said, "No one can live continually in sin and continue to say the Rosary: either they will give up sin or they will give up the Rosary." During my moments of contemplation with the Rosary, thoughts of sex subside as do my passions. I find peace and calm within its mysteries, but most of all I find freedom. The next time you decide to masturbate, ask yourself, "wouldn't I rather praise our Lord?" Now there are those who would argue that by celebrating the abilities of their God-given bodies they are celebrating Him who created them, but I am no longer one of those people.
Brother Adam Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 Good for you. Welcome home. I see the Hound of Heaven was pounding at your door. You are right to call masturbation an addiction. It does not free you, it ensnares you. I can only hope others will learn from your example.
learning2breathe Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 22 2005, 10:21 AM'] Good call. I'll remember that argument. [/quote] That is a great arguement...thanks for sharing!
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 I say welcome home as well. I am glad that the death of John Paul the Great has brought so much grace upon the world and truly worked great miracles in the lives of others. One Polish friar was talking about literally thousands of people swarming to him for Confession after the pope died. Confession, coming back to the faith...all beautiful things. I was caught in moral relativism for a couple years as a teenager. Not a fun time...lots of trying to convince yourself that you're right and plenty of slavery to your passions.
aloha918 Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 in masturbation you are LYING to your body that you are having sex......and that is what it is.....you are making your body think that you are are having sex, therefore LYING to it!......and obviously other unholy things.........lust is a sin........lying is a sin.....masturbation is a sin.....there shouldnt be a doubt about!
infinitelord1 Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='Briguy' date='Apr 22 2005, 07:32 AM'] infinite, If you are sure M. is wrong then you should not be doing it. You need to think about why you feel it is wrong. If it causes Sin in your life, then it is wrong. If you feel it is wrong, "just because" then you should think deeply about that. I said before I just cannot see M in and of itself as wrong. M is not mentioned in the Bible. Fornication and Adultery deal with a sexual act between two people. Let us not make more of something then we should or make something into what it is not. -Brian [/quote] I dont necessarily feel its wrong (sometimes i do), but i know that the catholic church recognizes it as a perversion. I think there is some reference in the bible about it (something about not dropping seed on the ground).
Thy Geekdom Come Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 22 2005, 01:04 PM'] I dont necessarily feel its wrong (sometimes i do), but i know that the catholic church recognizes it as a perversion. I think there is some reference in the bible about it (something about not dropping seed on the ground). [/quote] That would be the seed of Onan.
infinitelord1 Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='return2truth' date='Apr 22 2005, 09:29 AM'] One of the BIGGEST obstacles I am facing is my addiction to masturbation. I have indulged in this practice on average once a day, every day for the last seventeen years. [/quote] yeh....me too (7 years, every day). Which makes it even harder to give up.
jezic Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 22 2005, 12:04 PM'] I dont necessarily feel its wrong (sometimes i do), but i know that the catholic church recognizes it as a perversion. I think there is some reference in the bible about it (something about not dropping seed on the ground). [/quote] feelings can be manipulated. It doesn't have to feel wrong to be wrong. It is like now, they can inject chemicals that will make you depressed or happy on command. Does that "make" you either of those things? No, not really. Masturbation isn't going to be wrong because it feels wrong, it is wrong because 1) God told us not to 2) it doesn't lead to life 3) it leads away from God.
return2truth Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Apr 22 2005, 12:08 PM']That would be the seed of Onan.[/quote] I never felt Onan's sin was that of masturbations as much as it was a defiance of God's direct commandment. Actually, I think it is more a justification for the sin of contraception.
infinitelord1 Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='return2truth' date='Apr 22 2005, 12:21 PM'] I never felt Onan's sin was that of masturbations as much as it was a defiance of God's direct commandment. Actually, I think it is more a justification for the sin of contraception. [/quote] why do you think it is for contraception alone? Couldnt it apply to both?
jezic Posted April 22, 2005 Posted April 22, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Apr 22 2005, 12:14 PM'] yeh....me too (7 years, every day). Which makes it even harder to give up. [/quote] Yes it is harder to give up after that long, but the process is still the same. Sometimes though it is easiest not to focus on the giving of something up but focus on gaining something. If you seek to follow Jesus more closely and read the stuff, you will understand and what is holding you back from him (i.e. masturbation) will disappear. HOwever, this does not mean that you should still masturbate while seeking to follow Jesus. You need to resist that as much as possible as well.
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