Was Jesus the true messiah?

[Curt F.]

Who is to say those miracles were an act of God rather than an act of science?

Personally, I believe the divinity of Jesus is false because I have yet to find any reprehensible proof to the existance of God, outside of the Bible, which I consider, at the very least, a historical fiction.

But I certainly can understand why one would "believe" in Jesus and I will not question those who do. I just believe they are inccorect.

[scardella]

[quote name='Curt F.' date='May 7 2005, 09:09 AM'] Who is to say those miracles were an act of God rather than an act of science?
[/quote]
Eh? Can you elaborate/clarify the question?

[Curt F.]

What I meant was how can you claim those "miracles" were an act of God when we find out new things about science all the time. Keep in mind, this could also be science at act.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 6 2005, 04:46 PM'] [quote name='Pilgrim']your presence on this discussion board betrays your hunger for spiritual enlightement[/quote]

I can assure you that my hunger won't be satisfied by faith.


[quote name='Pilgrim']Yet this is a matter that can be accepted only in faith[/quote]

In other words, this all-loving God wants everyone to believe blindly to that which is impossible and will sent those that don't, those that have doubts, those that somehow missed the cleverly hidden clues to "enlightenment" to eternal punishment in Hell. Your religion, sir, makes absolutely no sense.


But this is off-topic ... [/quote]
darn good point semalsia............this is why i hate god.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='scardella' date='May 6 2005, 05:02 PM'] Erm...
You've got the thinking backwards. These stories exist because the features are imprinted upon our psyches precisely so that we CAN recognize Jesus as the Christ. When people didn't see Jesus around (or disbelieved in Him), they made up similar stories because Jesus is the person they're implicitly looking for.

In this line of reasoning, there's no wonder that the other messiah-type myth/legend/etc. exists. If God made us so that we would be implicitly looking for a Savior... it seems natural to grasp for it.

This is coming from some crackpot's ideas (mine) after reflecting on Jung's archetype theory. Of course it's a high Christology, which isn't what you're looking for.

BTW, there are numerous 3rd party accounts of Jesus that document His historicity. (I can't seem to remember anything specific at the moment, unfortunately.) However, the actions of His disciples are hardly rational if they made it up. That also does not explain numerous miracles, many of which are scientifically documented.

As a final note, I'd recommend Orthodoxy by GK Chesterton. It's available online for free. I found it at [url="http://www.hismercy.ca/content/ebooks/"]http://www.hismercy.ca/content/ebooks/[/url] [/quote]
also a good point

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 6 2005, 05:56 PM'] Semalsia, you would have to be a liar to think that Mithra was suffeciently like Jesus. Especially the fact that Mithra was post-Jesus (at least the Roman version of the religion, the Indian version is not at all in common with Christ).

Jesus couldn't have been just a story, for several reasons. One, the Bible speaks of him. The entire new testament, those letters from Paul, Peter, and John about Jesus. These were people who saw Him. It would be silly to have written about a story, and claim it is a real religion. These people lived it, they died for it, so could it truely be a story? Polycarp who was trained under John, wrote of Jesus as real.

Think about your reasoning for Tacitus. He records people speaking about Christ, who had seen Him. The people are just talking about a story.... and yet they speak of Christ as real. They worship Him, they praise Him, they die for Him, and claim to have saw Him, and yet it is a story. Think about the logic.... would they go so far as to die for a story that they saw? Would it make sense to be so devout to a person you have claimed to see but you know is a story... come on.. who are you kidding?

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
as silly as worshiping the son of the sun god?

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 6 2005, 11:51 PM'] So your arguement is that because Jesus resembles ancient myths, He must not of existed, or if so then He must of only been the basis for legends. Seems like a leap in logic to me.

Please line out point for point how Christ resembles such mythological figures and why you think that this points out that He must not be real. [/quote]
imagine never feeling "christ" when you take the eucharist........imagine praying to god and never feeling an answer..........imagine struggling with your faith because you feel that your beliefs are not logically sound.......imagine being keana reeves in the matrix.......forget i said that.........whats it gonna take for one like this to believe in god? If you notice similarities in religions like this.........it makes you wonder what (logically) seperates christianity from any other religion. So now your in a state of which god or which religion should i follow? Kind of makes you feel doubt in a god at all........it's pretty stressful stuff.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='scardella' date='May 7 2005, 09:03 AM'] first, sorry about the messed up URL, here's one that works: (sorry, I didn't check it last time)
[url="http://www.hismercy.ca/content/HM_ebooks.html"]http://www.hismercy.ca/content/HM_ebooks.html[/url]
It's about 1/2 to 2/3 the way down.


Second, regarding the first part:
It doesn't prove or disprove anything. I do think it's telling, though, that it alone has survived and thrived.

Third, regarding miracles:
There have been scientifically studied miracles, among which
-Eucharistic miracle at Lanciano, Italy (bread turned visibly into flesh, flesh hasn't decomposed)
-St. Juan Diego's tilna w/ miraculous image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, Mexico (Tilnas usually deteriorate in ~20-30 years. This one has lasted several hundred. Also, scientists don't know how the image got onto the tilna.)
-Numerous healings at Lourdes
-Miracle of the sun at Fatima, Portugal (Sun seemed to wobble, etc. The area had been soaked by rainfall, and afterwards, everything was dry.)
-Incorruptible bodies, particularly St. Bernadette, St. Rita of Cascia, St. Vincent de Paul, among others... (all three died before 1900 and they aren't decomposing) [/quote]
how do you prove that this eucharistic flesh was once a eucharist.........afterall it is now flesh..........it may have easily been a documented, hoax all along.

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 7 2005, 11:31 PM']
I can assure you that my hunger won't be satisfied by faith.


[QUOTE=Pilgrim]Yet this is a matter that can be accepted only in faith[/QUOTE]

In other words, this all-loving God wants everyone to believe blindly to that which is impossible and will sent those that don't, those that have doubts, those that somehow missed the cleverly hidden clues to "enlightenment" to eternal punishment in Hell. Your religion, sir, makes absolutely no sense.


But this is off-topic ... [/QUOTE]
darn good point semalsia............this is why i hate god. [/quote]
This is actually a terrible point. Christianity doesn't teach that. Hell isn't a place, it is a concept. Hell is literally just eternal separation from God. That separation isn't necessarily a place at all. Furthermore, you are only eternally separated from God if you reject Him, not vice versa. And in addition to all of that, we have no idea who is and is not eternally separated from God at the end of things. All atheists might be saved in the end through God's mercy. We just don't know. So taking the quotations you get from hard-line fundamentalists just doesn't hold water as a reasonable argument.

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 7 2005, 11:59 PM'] how do you prove that this eucharistic flesh was once a eucharist.........afterall it is now flesh..........it may have easily been a documented, hoax all along. [/quote]
You could say the same thing about the moon landings. There's good documentation to support it, we even have rocks from the moon. But maybe they're just rocks from earth with good documentation that was falsified.

The truth is a tricky thing if you are dealing in absolute proof. There is always room for doubt, there are always holes that can be poked in any arguments. A criminal whose DNA matches a rape victim might be a victim of a conspiracy. However, it is more likely that he raped the woman.

You are free to use your own judgement however you please. However, if your judgements agaisnt religion are based on incredible evidence, then you should apply the same stringent standards of evidence to all other aspects of your life. To be honest, I think most modern difficulties with religion stem from it being hard to believe. But I ask you, when you go out into the forest and look at thousands of gigantic trees blocking out the sky, or when you see mountains or the vast oceans, is it really that hard to swallow that it was created by design and not random circumstance?

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 7 2005, 11:54 PM'] imagine never feeling "christ" when you take the eucharist........imagine praying to god and never feeling an answer..........imagine struggling with your faith because you feel that your beliefs are not logically sound.......imagine being keana reeves in the matrix.......forget i said that.........whats it gonna take for one like this to believe in god? If you notice similarities in religions like this.........it makes you wonder what (logically) seperates christianity from any other religion. So now your in a state of which god or which religion should i follow? Kind of makes you feel doubt in a god at all........it's pretty stressful stuff. [/quote]
It definitely is stressful stuff. I've personally never felt the presence of Christ when taking the eucharist. I've almost never felt the presence of God in prayer. Doubt definitely figures into the equation. I tried out many different religions, but I came back to Catholicism in the end. I think if you look at the world around you, study the Catholic theology, and keep an open mind, you will find it to be convincing.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 12:38 AM'] as silly as worshiping the son of the sun god? [/quote]
Excuse my language, but what the carp are you trying to convey. How does that relate to my post you quoted, at all.

God bless,
Mikey

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 7 2005, 11:54 PM'] imagine never feeling "christ" when you take the eucharist........imagine praying to god and never feeling an answer..........imagine struggling with your faith because you feel that your beliefs are not logically sound [/quote]
Not to be rude, but if anyone's faith is based purely on their feelings, then that is not faith but emotion. One cannot build their faith on their feeling at that time for they will be like the ship without a rutter, tossed about by the wave of their own emotions.

If you keep waiting for a definite answer for God, chances are they have already come, and are still coming, people just do not recongize them. One cannot say, "God I want you to do prove to me that you are real." God does not operate on our terms. Instead one must be open to the promptings and guidance of the Spirit to move one to faith. Faith is one of the three theological virtues and so is a gift that must be prayed and asked for. It will come with time, but if you try to do it all on your own, or build it upon your emotions, you will only get as far as humans can. In the long run that is not very far at all.

[cmotherofpirl]

Most people i general today make their decisions based on feelings. They haven't been taught anything else.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 8 2005, 06:59 AM'] Most people i general today make their decisions based on feelings. They haven't been taught anything else. [/quote]
Someone just posted today in a protestant forum that we should build all of our theology on what first and foremost makes us feel good. Everything else is a distant second..........I am sorry, but I never considred feelings a good ground for belief because emotions often change so quickly and dramatically.