Was Jesus the true messiah?

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 7 2005, 11:54 PM'] imagine never feeling "christ" when you take the eucharist........imagine praying to god and never feeling an answer..........imagine struggling with your faith because you feel that your beliefs are not logically sound.......imagine being keana reeves in the matrix.......forget i said that.........whats it gonna take for one like this to believe in god? If you notice similarities in religions like this.........it makes you wonder what (logically) seperates christianity from any other religion. So now your in a state of which god or which religion should i follow? Kind of makes you feel doubt in a god at all........it's pretty stressful stuff. [/quote]
It definitely is stressful stuff. I've personally never felt the presence of Christ when taking the eucharist. I've almost never felt the presence of God in prayer. Doubt definitely figures into the equation. I tried out many different religions, but I came back to Catholicism in the end. I think if you look at the world around you, study the Catholic theology, and keep an open mind, you will find it to be convincing.

[MichaelFilo]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 12:38 AM'] as silly as worshiping the son of the sun god? [/quote]
Excuse my language, but what the carp are you trying to convey. How does that relate to my post you quoted, at all.

God bless,
Mikey

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 7 2005, 11:54 PM'] imagine never feeling "christ" when you take the eucharist........imagine praying to god and never feeling an answer..........imagine struggling with your faith because you feel that your beliefs are not logically sound [/quote]
Not to be rude, but if anyone's faith is based purely on their feelings, then that is not faith but emotion. One cannot build their faith on their feeling at that time for they will be like the ship without a rutter, tossed about by the wave of their own emotions.

If you keep waiting for a definite answer for God, chances are they have already come, and are still coming, people just do not recongize them. One cannot say, "God I want you to do prove to me that you are real." God does not operate on our terms. Instead one must be open to the promptings and guidance of the Spirit to move one to faith. Faith is one of the three theological virtues and so is a gift that must be prayed and asked for. It will come with time, but if you try to do it all on your own, or build it upon your emotions, you will only get as far as humans can. In the long run that is not very far at all.

[cmotherofpirl]

Most people i general today make their decisions based on feelings. They haven't been taught anything else.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 8 2005, 06:59 AM'] Most people i general today make their decisions based on feelings. They haven't been taught anything else. [/quote]
Someone just posted today in a protestant forum that we should build all of our theology on what first and foremost makes us feel good. Everything else is a distant second..........I am sorry, but I never considred feelings a good ground for belief because emotions often change so quickly and dramatically.

[cmotherofpirl]

Tell them robbing banks makes you feel good , and ask how to develop a theology of sharing [bank monies that is].

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Curt F.' date='May 7 2005, 11:11 PM'] What I meant was how can you claim those "miracles" were an act of God when we find out new things about science all the time. Keep in mind, this could also be science at act. [/quote]
Bread turning into flesh.. hmm

That seems to go against everything science has ever said..

[quote]how do you prove that this eucharistic flesh was once a eucharist.........afterall it is now flesh..........it may have easily been a documented, hoax all along. [/quote]

Where exactly do you go about getting live flesh from?
Keep in mind, this flesh was not some old rotted flesh, it was fresh, and still is. It has all the components of flesh as if it were still on a body. The blood type is consistent with the other Eucharistic miracles.

I think you are just posing that question to block yourself from believeing that it is real.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote]imagine never feeling "christ" when you take the eucharist........imagine praying to god and never feeling an answer..........imagine struggling with your faith because you feel that your beliefs are not logically sound.......imagine being keana reeves in the matrix.......forget i said that.........whats it gonna take for one like this to believe in god? If you notice similarities in religions like this.........it makes you wonder what (logically) seperates christianity from any other religion. So now your in a state of which god or which religion should i follow? Kind of makes you feel doubt in a god at all........it's pretty stressful stuff. [/quote]

Of course religions are going to be similar. They all want the same thing - God.
Every religion has a bit of truth in it. But what other religions offer you so much, like Catholicism? Which other religions have documented proof of a man who purposefully died for humanity in order to reconcile them with the Father?

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 8 2005, 08:52 AM'] I am sorry, but I never considred feelings a good ground for belief because emotions often change so quickly and dramatically. [/quote]
Darn good point, Paphy. Here's an ancient proverb for you:

Three men were walking on a wall,
Feeling, Faith and Fact,
When Feeling got an awful fall, and Faith was taken back,
So close was Faith to Feeling, he stumbled and fell too,
But Fact remained and pulled Faith back,
and Faith brought Feeling too.

Moral: So long as Faith keeps its eyes firmly ahead on Fact, everyone gets along just fine and Feeling follows along naturally. But Faith can't turn to look back to see how Feeling is doing without tripping up the whole company.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Pilgrim

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Socrates']Using the standards of those who would deny the existance of Christ, we would have to disregard the evidence for almost all figures of ancient history, including Julius Caesar and Alexander the Great![/quote]

That's not a valid comparison.


[quote name='Paphnutius']So your arguement is that because Jesus resembles ancient myths, He must not of existed, or if so then He must of only been the basis for legends. Seems like a leap in logic to me.[/quote]

I'm using the Occam's Razor. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. So far I have seen no evidence.

[quote name='scardella']It doesn't prove or disprove anything.[/quote]

It implies. That is enough.


[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum'] All atheists might be saved in the end through God's mercy. We just don't know.[/quote]

That doesn't really leave much reason for any belief.

I find it strange that you only have either eternal pain or eternal happiness as options in afterlife.

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum']when you go out into the forest and look at thousands of gigantic trees blocking out the sky, or when you see mountains or the vast oceans, is it really that hard to swallow that it was created by design and not random circumstance?[/quote]

Overwhelmingly hard. Nature is practically screaming out random.

[quote name='fidei defensor']How do you explain Eucharistic miracles - hosts becoming physically, visibly, real flesh.[/quote]

I don't believe any miracle has ever taken place.


[quote name='Infinitelord1']this is why i hate god.[/quote]

By hating you are only causing pain to yourself.

I don't hate god, because there is no god to hate.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote]I don't believe any miracle has ever taken place.[/quote]

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 01:31 AM']
............this is why i hate god. [/quote]
Hate is usually grounded in fear.

What are you afraid of?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='fideo defensor'][/quote]

Want to explain why you find that funny?

[musturde]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 12:01 PM'] [quote name='fideo defensor'][/quote]

Want to explain why you find that funny? [/quote]
I know people who don't believe in God but can't deny miracles occuring. There are a lot of unexplainable things that happen.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='musturde']I know people who don't believe in God but can't deny miracles occuring.[/quote]

Yes, you don't have to believe in a god in order to believe in supernatural. I don't believe in neither of them, though.

[quote name='musturde']There are a lot of unexplainable things that happen.[/quote]

Sure. There is, however, no reason to assume any supernatural causes for them. But most of the things that people see and can't explain are in fact explainable.

Oh and a picture of some "face" on a burned toast does not constitute as a miracle.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Semalsia

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 12:24 PM']
Sure. There is, however, no reason to assume any supernatural causes for them. But most of the things that people see and can't explain are in fact explainable.

Oh and a picture of some "face" on a burned toast does not constitute as a miracle. [/quote]
Nor did the church call it a miracle. You seem to think that the religious are completed uneducated masses of people who haven't reached your level of superior understanding. The truth is, I've seen the very same evidence you have, I've studied it, and I've formed a different opinion. This sort of thing happens all the time in every scientific discipline, and religion is no different.

Edited May 8, 2005 by Ordo.Teutonicorum

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum' date='May 8 2005, 12:44 PM'] Nor did the church call it a miracle. You seem to think that the religious are completed uneducated masses of people who haven't reached your level of superior understanding. The truth is, I've seen the very same evidence you have, I've studied it, and I've formed a different opinion. This sort of thing happens all the time in every scientific discipline, and religion is no different. [/quote]
Amen to that

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 11:29 AM'] Overwhelmingly hard. Nature is practically screaming out random. [/quote]
If nature is so random, then how could science exist?
Wouldnt that mean science is no more than some people opinions to how a certain thing works, even though they cannot truely know because its random? Kind of like the lottery.

So that would mean your following a bunch of people's opinions which cannot ever be fully proven. Sounds like you have more faith than those who follow a religion do..

[Paphnutius]

So your arguement is that because Jesus resembles ancient myths, He must not of existed, or if so then He must of only been the basis for legends. Seems like a leap in logic to me.

Please line out point for point how Christ resembles such mythological figures and why you think that this points out that He must not be real.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum']You seem to think that the religious are completed uneducated masses[/quote]

No. Some of them are very highly educated. The catholic clergy even more so, I think.

Nor does intelligence have anything to do with it.

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum']people who haven't reached your level of superior understanding.[/quote]

Actually, that is how I see all of you thinking about non-catholics.


So is burned picture of a face on a toast a miracle or not? I just stated that as a example of what some people claim to be a miracle and which is quite easily explained by perfectly natural means.


[quote name='fidei defensor'] If nature is so random, then how could science exist?[/quote]

I didn't mean a actual randomness. Of course there natural laws which cause the nature to be predictable. I meant that there is no intelligence or designer behind it all.