Was Jesus the true messiah?

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 02:39 PM']
Irrelevant. Do you know how many different kind of snowflakes there is possible to exist? When you find a snowflake, the odds that you found exactly that kind of snowflake are extremely low. Still, I doubt you scream "miracle" every time you find a snowflake.



Irrelevant. We just happen to be that kind of planet which did have Jupiter with it's neighbor.



Not true. Earth's distance from the sun varies millions of miles during one year. Do you know when it is the closests? Yeah, in the winter. And the furthest? Yep, in the summer.



That's exactly what I'm telling you. [/quote]
Actually you're wrong. It is the closest in summer and winter, and the furthest in summer and winter. These aren't phenomena associated with proximity to the sun but rather the tilt of the earth on its axis. If I lived in Australia, my summer would be when the earth is closest to the sun, would it not?

[Fidei Defensor]

One thing - can you be so sure there is not a God?

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Paphnutius'] I think it adds a wonderful deminsion to one's life to behold the beauty of the miracle of creation.[/quote]

Oh, I agree. Just not on the "miracle of creation" part. I marvel at the beauty of the nature. Very much so. I just think there is no creator behind it. No magic. Just the nature itself. For me, that somehow makes it more beautiful. More delicate. More precious.

[quote name='Paphnutius']That is what I want you to expound upon. Tell me these other "messiahs" and how they prove without a doubt that Jesus did not exist.[/quote]

I didn't say that they proved that Jesus never existed. They just prove that there was nothing special about Jesus.

I can't really tell you anything more specific about them off hand, other than what I have already said.


[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum'] Actually you're wrong. It is the closest in summer and winter, and the furthest in summer and winter.[/quote]

[url="http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2002/02jul_aphelion.htm"]Actually I was quite correct in what I said.[/url] I was just speaking from northern hemisphere's point of view.

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum']These aren't phenomena associated with proximity to the sun but rather the tilt of the earth on its axis. If I lived in Australia, my summer would be when the earth is closest to the sun, would it not?[/quote]

That was kind of my point. The tilt is more important than the distance from sun in determining summer/winter. Distance does effect the temperature of Earth, but one cm is not going to make any notable difference. If you were to take a look at the habitable zone of our solar system, you would notice that it is quite a lot wider than that.

[quote name='fidei defensor'] New Question: Where do we get our intellect and reasoning from? (From an atheistic point of view)[/quote]

I write posts quite slowly so it's hard to keep up with you all.

I don't understand your question. Where do we get our opposable thumbs? Through a long evolution. Intelligence is the same.

[quote name='fidei defensor'] One thing - can you be so sure there is not a God?[/quote]

Ultimately no. But I am very certain that there is none.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 04:02 PM'] I don't understand your question. Where do we get our opposable thumbs? Through a long evolution. Intelligence is the same.
[/quote]
I understand that, but i mean, how can you go from.. nothing - the big black nothingness that was what we had, to the universe, to our solar system, to Earth, so somehow intellegence - all from nothing.

[Semalsia]

[quote] I understand that, but i mean, how can you go from.. nothing - the big black nothingness that was what we had, to the universe, to our solar system, to Earth, so somehow intellegence - all from nothing.[/quote]

It is incredible when you think about it like that. It's mind-boggling! But that does not mean it's impossible. In fact, this is one of the reasons why I think of the world as so exciting and beautiful.

[Ordo.Teutonicorum]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 04:22 PM']
It is incredible when you think about it like that. It's mind-boggling! But that does not mean it's impossible. In fact, this is one of the reasons why I think of the world as so exciting and beautiful. [/quote]
Don't you think you're putting a lot of faith into your irreligious view of things? I mean, you just admitted that the idea of the world coming into being out of nothingness is both not-credible and mind-boggling. So, wouldn't you agree that the idea of the earth coming from a big bang is every bit as difficult to believe as religion? I mean, in our modern society, we frown on religion and treat it as a pariah, but let's look at things scientifically.

Either something made the Earth (or someone), or it made itself, through a series of random coincidences. Either way, we have little to no evidence on which of these two possibilities is correct. Leaving Catholicism out of things for the moment, why do you find the second argument more convincing than the first?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 04:22 PM']
It is incredible when you think about it like that. It's mind-boggling! But that does not mean it's impossible. In fact, this is one of the reasons why I think of the world as so exciting and beautiful. [/quote]
Yes, it is beautiful. Lets just agree to disagree.

We each have a different opinion to how the world came to be. I accept science to tell me this, but science cannot tell me why i am here.

Ultimately, neither of us will change our minds, so lets work towards what we do agree on, rather than what we dont agree on.

We both agree that Jesus did indeed exist.
My point will be, though, that the other "messiahs" did not actually exist, but rather were a myth. So do we agree atleast that Jesus did exist, whether divine or not?

[Pilgrim]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 04:02 PM'] I don't understand your question. Where do we get our opposable thumbs? Through a long evolution. Intelligence is the same.
[/quote]
May I suggest, Semalsia, that you are casting your net a bit wide for the purposes of this discussion. You are trying to accomplish the colossal task of debunking all of religion, when in fact this is just a discussion about Jesus' messianic character. Perhaps you would care to focus in a bit and answer the many requests you've been given to explain exactly HOW these extra-biblical figures compare to Jesus and WHY they make him unsuitable as a messiah. Your explanations of the Earth's orbit are indeed interesting, but they do not convince me that Jesus wasn't the Christ.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum']I mean, you just admitted that the idea of the world coming into being out of nothingness is both not-credible and mind-boggling. So, wouldn't you agree that the idea of the earth coming from a big bang is every bit as difficult to believe as religion?[/quote]


They are, to us humans. Many things in science do not hold to common sense. Yet they are logically sound and provable. Theory of relativity is mind-boggling too!

I would say that I find religion more hard to believe than the scientific theories.


[quote name='fidei defensor']Ultimately, neither of us will change our minds[/quote]

That I know. I'm just having a talk.

[quote name='fidei defensor']We both agree that Jesus did indeed exist.[/quote]

No, I don't agree on that. I don't know whether Jesus existed or not. I'm saying that it is irrelevant whether he existed or not. Since he was not divine.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Pilgrim']May I suggest, Semalsia, that you are casting your net a bit wide for the purposes of this discussion. You are trying to accomplish the colossal task of debunking all of religion, when in fact this is just a discussion about Jesus' messianic character.[/quote]

I know. I kind of tried to keep it on topic, but it seems these kind of discussions have a way of spreading.

Anyways, I think I might have already spoken everything I wanted and could say about the actual subject. I don't know what else to say.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 8 2005, 01:30 AM'] Not to be rude, but if anyone's faith is based purely on their feelings, then that is not faith but emotion. One cannot build their faith on their feeling at that time for they will be like the ship without a rutter, tossed about by the wave of their own emotions.

If you keep waiting for a definite answer for God, chances are they have already come, and are still coming, people just do not recongize them. One cannot say, "God I want you to do prove to me that you are real." God does not operate on our terms. Instead one must be open to the promptings and guidance of the Spirit to move one to faith. Faith is one of the three theological virtues and so is a gift that must be prayed and asked for. It will come with time, but if you try to do it all on your own, or build it upon your emotions, you will only get as far as humans can. In the long run that is not very far at all. [/quote]
thx for the advice.........that is very comforting to hear

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='May 8 2005, 06:07 PM'] No, I don't agree on that. I don't know whether Jesus existed or not. I'm saying that it is irrelevant whether he existed or not. Since he was not divine. [/quote]
It is not irrelevant. Either you truely do not know, or you are avoid it so that there is no chance of proving you wrong.

I want to examine the history around him - the fact that he changed history so much. But we have to first atleast agree he existed.

Any creditable historian would agree that a man, Jesus of Nazareth, existed.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Ordo.Teutonicorum' date='May 8 2005, 12:34 AM'] You could say the same thing about the moon landings. There's good documentation to support it, we even have rocks from the moon. But maybe they're just rocks from earth with good documentation that was falsified.

The truth is a tricky thing if you are dealing in absolute proof. There is always room for doubt, there are always holes that can be poked in any arguments. A criminal whose DNA matches a rape victim might be a victim of a conspiracy. However, it is more likely that he raped the woman.

You are free to use your own judgement however you please. However, if your judgements agaisnt religion are based on incredible evidence, then you should apply the same stringent standards of evidence to all other aspects of your life. To be honest, I think most modern difficulties with religion stem from it being hard to believe. But I ask you, when you go out into the forest and look at thousands of gigantic trees blocking out the sky, or when you see mountains or the vast oceans, is it really that hard to swallow that it was created by design and not random circumstance? [/quote]
u could say the same thing..........now we have the technology to document things better. I would trust that we went to the moon because we have visual evidence recorded on video tape so that everyone can see. Nobody questions if we have been to the moon. Yet, some question if there is a god and if jesus truly was his son.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='May 8 2005, 09:09 AM']
Of course religions are going to be similar. They all want the same thing - God.
Every religion has a bit of truth in it. But what other religions offer you so much, like Catholicism? Which other religions have documented proof of a man who purposefully died for humanity in order to reconcile them with the Father? [/quote]
we cant prove his intentions and we cant prove that there is a father

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='May 8 2005, 08:13 PM'] we cant prove his intentions and we cant prove that there is a father [/quote]
We can prove his intentions - his own words. He gave them to his followers. His followers wrote letters to cities and people, and told them about it. And you can prove the Father only if you believe that the intention of Jesus was true.